2013-01-29, 19:03 | Link #3581 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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Wouldn't that make Korean work even less well than Japanese without characters, or do they have their own native word for "east"? There must be tons of different Hanja with the reading "Dong", which I imagine would complicate things if they all were written the same.
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2013-01-29, 19:06 | Link #3582 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
About Japanese readings for Chinese words...I rather they remain with kanji for everything. Imagine, would you rather see stuff like ikazuchi, tsurugi, yaoyorozu etc in kanji or the full thing spelt out in kana everytime While most of the kanji they use are not common in Chinese, well...it IS a different language after all. And the similarities are still present between the characters
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2013-01-29, 19:27 | Link #3584 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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Looking at a sample of Korean text, I see that some of the "characters" (yes yes I know they are actually phonetic clusters) are more complicated-looking than others. I guess these "big words" are the actual nouns, verbs, and adjectives as opposed to connectors and grammatical particles, so reading it shouldn't be too hard.
The problem with kana, it seems, is that they are all the same size, so it makes more sense to write 美しい than spell the whole thing ( うつくしい) out. Not to mention the language has no spaces so god forbid it all be in kana. |
2013-01-29, 20:47 | Link #3585 |
Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
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This is what I used to think. Then you learn that there's a billion different ways to interpret "shin." Context can only go so far but with kanji you have a much higher rate of knowing what it means then and there. If you had nothing but kana for the writing system then believe me you'll have no idea what the hell is being talked about when it comes to sentences beyond the basics. Though the Japanese are aware of the craziness that is kanji, but they grow up with it so it's just a thousand times more difficult for foreigners. The Koreans eventually saw fit to break out of it, it's possible the Japanese may one day.
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2013-01-29, 20:55 | Link #3586 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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It's not that simple. The complexity of Japanese in terms of On'yomi and Kun'yomi forces it to use Kanji regularly in order to completely relay ideas.
To consider Japanese as the equivalent of Korean is the thought of those who do not know both languages and focus only on superficial aspects. Korean always had the advantage that only the reading is read when Hanja is used. Japanese does not have that luxury short of a radical change in the language itself. |
2013-01-29, 21:25 | Link #3587 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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I'm still not sure I understand why Japanese needs Kanji if Korean doesn't need Hanja based on the on'/kun'yomi logic. Whether you say "utsukushi/mi/bi/"etc. for what was once that one single character, what is the problem as long as there is context? It is like the two English suffixes "after-" and "post-", we don't need one word with those two different readings for different circumstances, so why does Japanese?
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2013-01-29, 21:30 | Link #3588 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Quote:
As for spoken language: There's a reason why spoken language is far less complex and Kanji-oriented than written language. |
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2013-01-29, 21:35 | Link #3589 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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uh... would the reading of both 川 and 河 being かわ serve as a good example of what you mean?
EDIT: Quote:
What happened to the whole thing about "context"? If we're talking about water and a rod, it doesn't matter if I say "gyo" or "sakana", you still should get what I mean. |
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2013-01-29, 23:10 | Link #3590 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
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Obviously context is present when having a spoken conversation, not to mention nuances and speaking patterns. But the written language in only kana gets very confusing because of the many ways you could interpret any given set of hiragana characters. Context in that regard really only goes so far considering the sheer amount of dependency Japanese has in Kun and On'yomi not to mention how many words are in a language. Perhaps you might have to know and get used to how the language works before this really sinks in.
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Last edited by Alchemist007; 2013-01-29 at 23:30. |
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2013-01-30, 02:43 | Link #3591 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Quote:
A similar problem existed in Europe until quite recently as well, the primary written language was Latin (not a vernacular like English), which proved to be a great impediment to literacy. Today written and spoken English are largely the same. You could speak in written English and be perfectly understood, and write in spoken English (minus filling words like ums or uhs) and be considered a proficient writer. (Of course English has different issues surrounding spelling, but even if spelling was reformed, English would not have a problem with homophones) But in Japan if you spoke in written Japanese it sounds to me like you wouldn't be understood (heaven help those who try to sell book readings...), and I can gather that if you tried to write in a manner similar to spoken Japanese your writing would be judged inferior. Sounds almost as absurd as that Shi poem. |
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2013-01-30, 02:57 | Link #3592 | ||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
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2013-01-30, 03:05 | Link #3593 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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(I am against abolishing kanji, I know what you mean by the "kana-only" nightmare) |
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2013-01-30, 03:13 | Link #3594 |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Don't know a single drop of Korean but it's the way Japanese words are constructed. Kanji+kana= a word. That format. Then you consider due to the yomi there's so many ways of sounding. If you understand the pure kana issue then yeah...you got the main gist of the problem
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2013-02-04, 12:56 | Link #3595 |
#1 Akashiya Moka Fan
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Since it's been mentioned/stated a hundred or so times over about just how hard but necessary it is to learn the kanji, anyone have any suggestions to make it a little easier to learn them beyond just brute memorization (like any helpful sites for practice or whatnot)?
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2013-02-04, 14:31 | Link #3596 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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Quote:
Brute memorization, while it sounds terrible, is actually quite effective in conjunction with normal reading. The trick is quantity and volume. Say you want to learn 20 characters a day: in the morning, take twice that number and go over their meaning and readings, making sure to repeat the readings aloud and write each one 5-10 times. Then take a break and read an essay. If you see any kanji you just reviewed, make mental notes for reinforcement's sake. Then at the end of the day go back and try to write and read out all the kanjis you can remember. As long as you retained a few you are fine. Then create a new set for the next day/session/class/whatever. You may forget some of the kanji you thought you learned well, but don't worry, just keep sending them into the memorygrinder, keep reading different texts, and they will stick eventually. |
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2013-02-04, 14:36 | Link #3597 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
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Imho I more or less passed the JPLT 3, I will say it straight, hooray for kanji.
a full sentence in hiragana is aweful, really aweful, at least when there's a kanji you can "not read", since japenese grammar becomes somehow basic once you become used to it, just the fact of looking the kanji can gives you the vibes for the sentence. Just thinking about making the difference between 以外 and 意外 in hiragana drives me insane. At least that works for manga, I will let the pros talk about real litterature and newspaper. |
2013-02-04, 16:48 | Link #3598 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Quote:
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2013-02-05, 12:12 | Link #3600 |
The Opened Ultimate Gate
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 29
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so I just applied for a japanese course at my university and classes will start next week, there are something I want to ask.
some people here said reading book can help you at reading, writing japanese and remembering kanji, but can I use Visual Novel instead of book? since playing games is pretty much how I progressed really fast with my english learning and become fluent in less than a year (I can say that 80% of my english is from gaming and 20% from school). how long it often take to learn it? is it harder to learn to speak than english?
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