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View Poll Results: Clannad - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 211 60.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 49 14.12%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 6.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 5.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 19 5.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 0.86%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 0.86%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.58%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 3 0.86%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 4.03%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-04-17, 02:11   Link #801
andiyar
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@ Kaisos Erranan

I agree that the material is beautiful, and that taken solely as that the True End is a lovely one. But as you say, not enough setup.

@ Justin Kim

I draw your attention to these lines of my prior post:

When a show requires me to go and read about the source material to gain proper understanding of what occurred, I'm sorry to say it has failed as proper entertainment. The lack of self-containment might be understandable due to the 'target audience' being game players, but as a non-game player and someone who was piecing the show together from the show alone (I specifically didn't contribute to this forum this season, due to spoilers both last season and from Air's forum during 2005), the standalone information just isn't there

and

I will say here that the ending makes sense within the limits of the Clannad universe, and reading around the material. I will however also say that this sense does not come through properly in the way it is presented, with the anime as the sole material.

The point I am making is that you should not be required to read a forum thread of discussion or wait for a summary episode. At the end of episode 22, it clearly states 'the End' as it fades to white. It should be considered to be self-contained, and my gripe is that the True End is not part of that self-containment.

Pretty and nice to see what would have happened, sure, but ultimately outside the anime experience.


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Old 2009-04-17, 05:55   Link #802
Justin Kim
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Okay. Uh. What?

Clannad was originally a route-based game. (Do you know what that is?)

In adapting it into an anime, KyoAni decided to try to turn the mutually exclusive routes into separate arcs by removing the romantic aspect from most of them. This is all fine and dandy, but the fact that the routes are mutually exclusive is an important part of the game's overall plot, in that the routes are, in fact, separate universes.

Discounting the Tomoyo and Kyou OVAs, the Clannad anime is set in one universe.

I think this is the problem with the adaptation here. Of course, another problem is that the True Ending feels more like a reward to the game player whereas in the anime it feels like a contrived Deus Ex. But whatever.


On a side, off-topic note, the problem I foresee for KyoAni's inevitable adaptation of Little Busters is that, frankly, Little Busters really doesn't work as a linear story for various spoilerific reasons, but they'll probably try to do it anyway. Sigh.
I made a passive statement regarding the release. I wasn't arguing with anyone. I was just trying to say that the release of Kyou After is a possibility along with those DVD's.

Another thing, I am not discussing the ending to the Clannad series here, I was putting up my post regarding everyone's previous posts about Kyou After.
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Old 2009-04-17, 06:59   Link #803
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Originally Posted by Justin Kim View Post
I made a passive statement regarding the release. I wasn't arguing with anyone. I was just trying to say that the release of Kyou After is a possibility along with those DVD's.

Another thing, I am not discussing the ending to the Clannad series here, I was putting up my post regarding everyone's previous posts about Kyou After.
Probably some mis-communication here...

He's probably just implying Arc != Alternate universe. In CLANNAD game it's called alternate route (universe), in anime it became arc because it became a linear story with "bends" on the plot line. So basically, Episode 24, Tomoyo Route isn't really an arc but an alternate universe and probably Kyou as well, if that's true
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Old 2009-04-18, 19:13   Link #804
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Probably some mis-communication here...

He's probably just implying Arc != Alternate universe. In CLANNAD game it's called alternate route (universe), in anime it became arc because it became a linear story with "bends" on the plot line. So basically, Episode 24, Tomoyo Route isn't really an arc but an alternate universe and probably Kyou as well, if that's true
Yes, that is what I meant, thank you dgreater.
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:42   Link #805
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Just watched the ending of Clannad, and I felt that this episode seemed to be overhyped for its own good. The whole "reset" thing that happened in this episode seemed to be really forced when I first saw it.

In other words, all of the emotional impact that I gathered up while watching the series just completely flattened after watching the reset scene. I could've accepted a different ending where Tomoya lives his life with his daughter (with Nagisa still dead), or a more darker ending (nice boat), but this ending just doesn't get to me imo.

The majority of the episodes in Clannad were good. This one wasn't.

Spoiler:


It's going to be hard to rate with such a hurdle of mixed opinions on this thread, but personally I would rate this episode a 4/10.
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Old 2009-06-26, 23:46   Link #806
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Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
Just watched the ending of Clannad, and I felt that this episode seemed to be overhyped for its own good. The whole "reset" thing that happened in this episode seemed to be really forced when I first saw it.

In other words, all of the emotional impact that I gathered up while watching the series just completely flattened after watching the reset scene. I could've accepted a different ending where Tomoya lives his life with his daughter (with Nagisa still dead), or a more darker ending (nice boat), but this ending just doesn't get to me imo.

The majority of the episodes in Clannad were good. This one wasn't.

Spoiler:


It's going to be hard to rate with such a hurdle of mixed opinions on this thread, but personally I would rate this episode a 4/10.
To be honest with you, this episode was never hyped at all. It's up to you as to how you want to interpret this ending and all but remember that this series was based off the visual novel and it stayed true to it's ending (mind you that I didn't play the game at all and I was glad at how they ended it, but to each his own.) Besides it seems you didn't understand what the light orbs were about considering that:

Spoiler for Nagisa/Ushio:
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Old 2009-06-27, 10:04   Link #807
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Nagisa and Ushio weren't revived, all that you saw happen from episodes 16-21 really did happen and even Tomoya has a recollection of it (watch the summary episode.) It was an alternate universe, you just have to have an open-mind about this. This series kind of makes you think when you actually see the whole picture of what Kotomi revealed to us (as well as her parents.) Aside from Clannad having a "family" theme, it also revolved around the illusionary world (hence the IW cut scenes with Ushio/Robo-Tomoya.)
Yes I know that there was an alternate universe during the progression of this series, but frankly, I would've liked the series much better if it didn't have to relate to this "alternate universe" that's coming up. At first, I thought episodes 16-21 was a dream that Tomoya basically went through when he was knocked out, but seeing that the series kept mentioning to this "alternate world" that I didn't know about it until I read the posts in this thread, I felt very annoyed while watching this series the first time.

Ushio and the Robot cameo at the beginning of each episode didn't really enhance my enjoyment of this series either.

edit: If Nagish and Ushio weren't revived, how did they come back to life? That's like saying people were revived by the Dragonballs in Dragonball Z weren't actually revived because they were already living in some other place before they were sent back to the earth.
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Old 2009-06-27, 13:29   Link #808
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edit: If Nagish and Ushio weren't revived, how did they come back to life? That's like saying people were revived by the Dragonballs in Dragonball Z weren't actually revived because they were already living in some other place before they were sent back to the earth.
They didn't comeback to life. And just as you witnessed it, the whole family Tomoya and Nagisa started died at Episode 21. Although, the story between episode 16-21 are true, it happened in the parallel world where the story branch at where Nagisa died (but survive at the same time) after giving birth to Ushio. But as you can see, we're talking about a story that touches the concept of alternate universes so the fact that there's also a story where the whole family is intact also already exist. People just didn't realized it because they're more focused on how or why the whole family was intact in episode 22 without even looking for an answer or they just totally didn't see it coming at all and was hit with a WTF impression. The hints were already there throughout the beginning, some people were just ignoring the idea of Alternate Universes that's why they couldn't find the right answer to episode 22 or they just flat out saw episode 22 as something impossible.

------\------- Tragic End
-------\------ Happy End

As to how that happened? Let yourself find out the answer but I can say that the ultimate clues are on Episode 16.

Thoughts travel through time and space, strong desire can bend reality, making an alternate world.

Let me also add that the two world (universe), the tragic world and the world full of hopes (three if you include the Illusionary World) aren't the only parallel world in CLANNAD. Proof is Episode 24 CLANNAD 1st Season, TomoyoxTomoya Route and Episode 24 of AFTER STORY KyouxTomoya Route, even the worlds that is set in the game are different worlds and even the worlds made by people's thought (Fanfic if you ask my opinion) are still considered as alternate worlds.

Here's a question, what's the point of reading the sad story when there's a happy story? No need to answer but don't assume that everyone will have the same answer as you.

As for Dragon Ball, it functions a "Single Universe", the people are brought back like Undead Zombies through the power of the Balls. If you're talking about an alternate universe of Dragon Ball, then you're talking about a different universe and not just dimensions in that universe. Probably a Universe that has a totally different setting. Why do you think there's only a single individual there?

I would like to touch and add something from Gurren Lagan's Episode 26

Spoiler for Probably a Major Spoiler:

Last edited by dgreater1; 2009-06-27 at 13:40.
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Old 2009-06-27, 14:33   Link #809
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alternate universes so the fact that there's also a story where the whole family is intact also already exist. People just didn't realized it because they're more focused on how or why the whole family was intact in episode 22 without even looking for an answer or they just totally didn't see it coming at all and was hit with a WTF impression. The hints were already there throughout the beginning, some people were just ignoring the idea of Alternate Universes that's why they couldn't find the right answer to episode 22 or they just flat out saw episode 22 as something impossible.
That's the main problem about the series though. I thought that CLANNAD would be much better off without this whole "alternate universes" thing. In fact, I could understand CLANNAD better if there was only one universe and the Light Orbs were there solely to grant wishes, but unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case.

You're trying to force that 10/10 out of me aren't you?
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Old 2009-06-27, 19:19   Link #810
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Yes I know that there was an alternate universe during the progression of this series, but frankly, I would've liked the series much better if it didn't have to relate to this "alternate universe" that's coming up. At first, I thought episodes 16-21 was a dream that Tomoya basically went through when he was knocked out, but seeing that the series kept mentioning to this "alternate world" that I didn't know about it until I read the posts in this thread, I felt very annoyed while watching this series the first time.

Ushio and the Robot cameo at the beginning of each episode didn't really enhance my enjoyment of this series either.

edit: If Nagish and Ushio weren't revived, how did they come back to life? That's like saying people were revived by the Dragonballs in Dragonball Z weren't actually revived because they were already living in some other place before they were sent back to the earth.
Although I have to admit that the ending of episode 21 was rather ambiguous, I believe that Tomoya collapsed from grief (and died.) What you're saying about your comprehension of the alternate worlds is contradictory to yourself because if you knew about it, then how do you not understand the reason behind why Nagisa and Ushio weren't revived?

An alternate universe is exactly that, moments happening in separate worlds. We were shown alternate worlds where we had the worst outcome and in the end we were left with the best outcome. Even Fuko was affected by it considering that I recall her older sister Kouko claiming that Fuko's condition was getting worse and as far as we know, she probably never awoke from her coma in the universe that we saw for the majority of the time (which is the world with the worst outcome.)

I couldn't have said it better than dgreater1(also from episode 16):

Quote:
Thoughts travel through time and space, strong desire can bend reality, making an alternate world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
That's the main problem about the series though. I thought that CLANNAD would be much better off without this whole "alternate universes" thing. In fact, I could understand CLANNAD better if there was only one universe and the Light Orbs were there solely to grant wishes, but unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case.

You're trying to force that 10/10 out of me aren't you?
No, no, don't misconstrue what we're trying to explain It's not about giving the series a 10/10, we're just trying to clarify how you interpreted the ending.

The biggest problem I see here is that we're watching the series through subtitles (at least most of us that don't understand Japanese completely) but there are a lot of things we miss out because of translation and only because of the language barrier. Now I'm not saying that all people that understand Japanese enjoyed the series more or were more comprehensive about the plot but there are things lost in translation.

Some people watch a series in a general point of view rather than look for the deeper meaning behind certain plot points (which is fine all on it's own) but I feel that if someone wants to review a series, it's better to try and understand the entirety of the plot before expressing how one feels. Remember that this is a public forum and that anything you post on here is subject for discussion (which is what I'm currently doing.)

About what you said in your last post, it seems that you wanted something more generic but that isn't Clannad Without all the alternate worlds, Clannad simply put, just isn't Clannad. Making it more simplistic would take away from the core of the series (aside from the family theme which was simple to comprehend.)
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Old 2009-06-27, 20:07   Link #811
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I dunno. You really can't have Clannad with all that magical stuff happening. Doing so would invalidate quite a few things in the story. I just wouldn't look too deep in it. From someone who watched the anime and never played the games, it seemed pretty simple. The trippy alternate world breaks, releasing the light thingys and wishes are granted so we go back in time.

But while I love the series and this episode actually, I will admit that it was somewhat predictable. Honestly, I could never really view this series as a tragedy. One huge reason is that they didn't change the ED during these episodes, it's still the same upbeat one.

Does it really negate the emotional impact? Well, for me no. If had been like DBZ where this happens as frequently as lunch, then it'd be a diffrent story. Clannad to me seemed to always be a fairy tale rather than a tragedy. It just seemed that a happy ending matched the tone of the overall story, and it's by and large an extremely optimistic series. I find it hilarious to see Mai-Hime brought up in this discussion because
Spoiler:

But I could understand why many people would hate this ending if they were looking for something else. We wonder what the heck we were doing the last few episodes. Not to mention that episode 14-16 were so ridiclously fast paced. Wham! Nagisa's dead! Wham! She's suddenly alive again. Wtf? And honestly, this is one thing I respect about Air, which is succeeds far more in the tragedy department, though it also errs in other ways.

But often times fiction is an escapist thing, and stuff we would wish happen but can't in real life can happen here. So yes, I may be able to appreciate the theme of "family" even though I know that I can just resurrect them. Life is unfair, let's just get away from that for a second so we can stop moping about it.

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Old 2009-06-28, 05:30   Link #812
dgreater1
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You're trying to force that 10/10 out of me aren't you?
I'll let you decide for yourself

If you think it's true, the universe will branch but if you think it's not true, the universe will still branch. It's a branch between your beliefs

Okay, ignore my weird comments.
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Old 2009-07-09, 18:41   Link #813
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Btw. how is this done in the game? I guess something like a good and a bad ending - depending on certain things you did?
Regarding everything else, as I want to go sure I just put everything into Spoiler tags, as most part of it is a spoiler for those who haven't watched it yet - though it would surprise me to find someone who hasn't in an episode 22 discussion thread (but just to go sure)
Btw. I hope my sentences make sense as I used some pretty long ones and English isn't my mother language.
Spoiler:


Oh btw. the multiple universe theory is pretty "common" actually (of course it isn't proven) and actually one of the few possiblities I think that could be true. That is because, if time travels do indeed exist (which I am not completely sure, isn't proven either but at least there is no counter-proof), it would leed to various paradoxes (I hope that is the english plural for paradox). For instance, if you travel in time to do something. However, whatever you did had an impact on the world and therefore would never have required you to travel in time to do anything. Therefore you wouldn't have traveled in time to begin with but if you didn't, you never changed it... This could be explained by the multiple universe theory. Whatever got changed created a new universe but the old one still exists and therefore there in that one there was still the need to change something.

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Old 2009-07-09, 21:55   Link #814
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Kay so, I finally just finished After Story, and I love it to pieces. <3

I think the ending was a little confusing, but I dunno, it doesn't matter much to me. I was caught up in the emotion, and the Tomoya x Nagisa cuteness. XD

But, the scene where Tomoya
Spoiler for minor spoilers about later in the episode:


But, I wish we would have gotten to see more of Tomoya, Nagisa and Ushio as a family! D:
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Old 2009-07-09, 22:05   Link #815
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Kay so, I finally just finished After Story, and I love it to pieces. <3

I think the ending was a little confusing, but I dunno, it doesn't matter much to me. I was caught up in the emotion, and the Tomoya x Nagisa cuteness. XD

But, the scene where Tomoya
Spoiler for minor spoilers about later in the episode:


But, I wish we would have gotten to see more of Tomoya, Nagisa and Ushio as a family! D:
Oh, you don't know how much I was wishing that we would get to see a lot more of the Okazaki family together, and at first I thought it was coming up because there was still about 10-12 minutes of the episode left but all we got is 10 minutes of Fuko (I mean, I like Fuko and all but she interfered at the wrong moment considering I just wanted to see some more Okazaki family goodness )
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Old 2009-07-10, 03:34   Link #816
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Maybe there will be one to three OVA that will show a bit more of the Okazaki family. At least I hope so.
Well there could also be another season with Ushio going to school and about her adventures. Though I think that is a bit unlikely.
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Old 2009-07-10, 03:54   Link #817
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Very unlikely. But a nice idea.

I sort of wanted to see a generational show with teenaged Ushio either as one of the harem girls or the new harem lead with Nagisa and Tomoya as her parents having to deal with the boy(s) that come by. Also Sanae and Akio still being around for extra fun. Kyou can still be a teacher, just at the high school. Tomoyo can be a government official or something. Sunohara is a Taxi driver. Fuuko is sort of Ushio's weird adopted older sister/aunt. Ryou is a nurse. And Kotomi is missing in America still. Most of the old cast would be cameo parts at best.

The plot would be typical Key I imagine. If it is from the boy's point of view, Ushio is the end girl, but you have about three other girls at the school that you could end up with, plus teacher Kyou. If it is from Ushio's point of view, the story will be more about friendship or something with three guys after her or her friends. Kyou gets to be her club advisor. Ushio's club is looking for aliens, time travelers, and espers...she's already found the sliders....
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Old 2009-07-10, 06:01   Link #818
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OK. Very unlikely and not a bit unlikely.
But an OVA would showing the Okazaki family a bit more would be more likely though - it might even explain the ending a bit more
In any case we will have to wait anyway

Regarding Fuko: I think she is the person that fits in the least in After Story (especially, since no one remembers her) but it is still nice to see that she finally woke up.

Quote:
Ushio's club is looking for aliens, time travelers, and espers...she's already found the sliders....
But then she needs to change her name before (first and last name) ... LOL
Also it doesn't fit her character, nor are the parents like that - at best Tomoya could be Kyon but definitely not Haruhi However, maybe she was influenced by Fuko

Btw.: I think After Story was way better than Clannad (season 1). Of course, you need Clannad (season 1) for character introduction and such things.
Actually, for me it is more like Clannad (season 1) is the introduction - especially character introduction - and After Story is the real story (so After Story as title doesn't make much sense to me ).
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:31   Link #819
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Very unlikely. But a nice idea.

I sort of wanted to see a generational show with teenaged Ushio either as one of the harem girls or the new harem lead with Nagisa and Tomoya as her parents having to deal with the boy(s) that come by. Also Sanae and Akio still being around for extra fun. Kyou can still be a teacher, just at the high school. Tomoyo can be a government official or something. Sunohara is a Taxi driver. Fuuko is sort of Ushio's weird adopted older sister/aunt. Ryou is a nurse. And Kotomi is missing in America still. Most of the old cast would be cameo parts at best.

The plot would be typical Key I imagine. If it is from the boy's point of view, Ushio is the end girl, but you have about three other girls at the school that you could end up with, plus teacher Kyou. If it is from Ushio's point of view, the story will be more about friendship or something with three guys after her or her friends. Kyou gets to be her club advisor. Ushio's club is looking for aliens, time travelers, and espers...she's already found the sliders....
I like your idea about Ushio going to high school and meeting other guys That seems to be pretty interesting and if anything I would make one of the boys similar to Tomoya (not in looks but in personality but not exactly the same either) just to bring some irony to the story

Then create an alternate universe...

As for what I put in bold, I guess the trolling got to you huh?
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:44   Link #820
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As for what I put in bold, I guess the trolling got to you huh?
My initial reaction was "screw this, I'm watching Clannad again"
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