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millie10468 · 2014-06-29, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, so you can't use magic to push competitors off their boards. What I proposed was freezing a bit of water and giving that frozen bit some speed. It's no different from lighting up the water. Heck if you can somehow use Newton's Third Law to accelerate as a result of throwing hailstones behind, you've got an even better excuse!

I'd think if you could do this and as long as no one got hurt, well more grease to your elbow. It's not prohibited. It just hasn't been done yet. If you can do that and win, you'd probably be praised. They do say tactics and strategies are synonymous with underhandedness after all. The problem is that without god-tier level ice magic and excellent control, this is virtually impossible.

Eclipze · 2014-06-29, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

How would that not be considered attacking them, when the intended result would likely cause them to break multiple bones?

The acceleration thing that Mari did, if done at a crucial point like at a bend, could lead to severe injuries/deaths as well. So...

If there's one issue I have with the episode (aside from jesus tatsuya moments which I've more or less gotten used to by now) its the fact that the author decided to touch on the whole bloom/weed thing again, after having it brushed off in the first arc (the issue exists because you weeds keep harping on about it!). You can pretty much predict at this point that he will eventually convert over to being on Team Tatsuya anyway (or just fade into obsecurity).

kagato3 · 2014-06-29, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipze

The acceleration thing that Mari did, if done at a crucial point like at a bend, could lead to severe injuries/deaths as well. So...

If there's one issue I have with the episode (aside from jesus tatsuya moments which I've more or less gotten used to by now) its the fact that the author decided to touch on the whole bloom/weed thing again, after having it brushed off in the first arc (the issue exists because you weeds keep harping on about it!). You can pretty much predict at this point that he will eventually convert over to being on Team Tatsuya anyway (or just fade into obsecurity).

note the weed thing is only by one person that does have a personal grudge against Tatsuya and is getting annoyed that it seems everyone is singing his praises and honestly thinks that he is someone that doesn't deserve them and because reality keeps proving him wrong he is lashing out in frustration. Now he might have had a point if what Tatsuya was doing wasn't something he is actually overqualified for. Honestly if it was known Tatsuya was Silver he wouldn't be getting nearly as much praise but then it is unlikely he would have been regulated to the girls team.

Anh_Minh · 2014-06-29, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by millie10468

I'd think if you could do this and as long as no one got hurt, well more grease to your elbow. It's not prohibited. It just hasn't been done yet. If you can do that and win, you'd probably be praised. They do say tactics and strategies are synonymous with underhandedness after all. The problem is that without god-tier level ice magic and excellent control, this is virtually impossible.

Mayumi did exactly that (freeze and use as projectiles) with carbon dioxide molecules. It's apparently a standard spell. Why should it be so difficult?

kagato3 · 2014-06-29, 13:58

She also wasn't surfing using her magic at the same time. and again directly attacking other contestants is against the rules

Anh_Minh · 2014-06-29, 14:31

But doing stuff to the water isn't. If that loophole's good enough for Honoka, it should be good enough for anybody else.

kagato3 · 2014-06-29, 15:28

The rules state that the only things that can be done other then to oneself is to interfere with the surface of the water. It would take someone with an ungodly amount of ability to freeze enough of the water to be an impediment and throwing back ice like you suggested would be more of an attack then a disruption to the water surface. at best they could freeze a small bit and cause a splash not to mention there is less time to pull it off since the coordinate system is changing unless they stop which completely negates any usefulness of even trying. Your best option is to cause a wave or some other wide spread disruption of the water surface and they did do something like that in Mari's first match and it did all of nothing to her because she had anchored herself to the board.

Magewolf · 2014-06-29, 21:14

How can a major criminal gang not know how to run a book on a high school sports meet? They do all deserve to be killed for incompetence, if nothing else.

wontaek · 2014-06-29, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magewolf

How can a major criminal gang not know how to run a book on a high school sports meet? They do all deserve to be killed for incompetence, if nothing else.

It seems most people who are not friendly with the main two characters are incompetent.

Ickarium · 2014-06-29, 22:05

Minor LN comment on the rules of battle board:

Spoiler:

guestuser · 2014-06-29, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by wontaek

It seems most people who are not friendly with the main two characters are incompetent.

is not that they are incompetent they just have no idea who are they dealing with here.

novalysis · 2014-06-30, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magewolf

How can a major criminal gang not know how to run a book on a high school sports meet? They do all deserve to be killed for incompetence, if nothing else.

They probably got too greedy. Had they run a normal Book, based on actuarial calculations, they should probably have made a tidy profit (or at worst, a minor loss) no matter who won or lost. But, they decided they could make even more, if they tried to rig the results in their favor. If they failed to successfully rig the results though, they were toast, because the payouts they were offering were too generous. And odds are, they could probably get away with match fixing, if they went undetected .... which they should, except...

Our Resident Gary Stu seems to be closing in on them....

It isn't just a High School Sports Meet though - it's much closer to a jousting competition between the future Elites of society.

Magewolf · 2014-06-30, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by novalysis

They probably got too greedy. Had they run a normal Book, based on actuarial calculations, they should probably have made a tidy profit (or at worst, a minor loss) no matter who won or lost. But, they decided they could make even more, if they tried to rig the results in their favor. If they failed to successfully rig the results though, they were toast, because the payouts they were offering were too generous. And odds are, they could probably get away with match fixing, if they went undetected .... which they should, except...

Our Resident Gary Stu seems to be closing in on them....

It isn't just a High School Sports Meet though - it's much closer to a jousting competition between the future Elites of society.

Yes, I understand that if they were fixing the games that they would offer good odd on First and bad odds on Third(who they would expect to win if First lost). However why would they attack the bus then? It was before the games started so if it had worked they would have killed all the last minute betting which is when most of the big money moves. And they might have killed the children of a lot of super powered people with the right to be judge,jury, and executioner.

kagato3 · 2014-06-30, 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Yes, I understand that if they were fixing the games that they would offer good odd on First and bad odds on Third(who they would expect to win if First lost). However why would they attack the bus then? It was before the games started so if it had worked they would have killed all the last minute betting which is when most of the big money moves. And they might have killed the children of a lot of super powered people with the right to be judge,jury, and executioner.

You did notice that they are an international crime syndicate that seems to originate from a country that is a national enemy of Japan and has already been shown to support terrorist operations on Japanese soil. And the bus crash was not immediately clear to have been cause by magic and in fact was set up to hide it as much as possible by the time anyone worked out what had happened the people behind it could easily be long gone. as for why then, who knows maybe they have it set up to close betting before any of the games start

HandofFate · 2014-06-30, 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But doing stuff to the water isn't. If that loophole's good enough for Honoka, it should be good enough for anybody else.

Doing stuff to the water is allowed, but there's still a limit, Mayumi's event was solo, this event is an actual thing competitors racing against eachother.

You can splash up water behind you, make waves and what not.

But freezing and boiling the water is too dangerous because it will lead directly to serious injuries, given the high-speed nature of the event.
Honoka's light thing just makes the competitors lose their balance and can't concentrate. So it falls into the range of acceptable interference.

GDB · 2014-06-30, 13:45

What about erecting a wall of ice right at the start, similar to how Honoka used a blinding light right at the start? Mid-race, both would be potentially fatal to other competitors, but before they start moving they should have similar applications.

kagato3 · 2014-06-30, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

What about erecting a wall of ice right at the start, similar to how Honoka used a blinding light right at the start? Mid-race, both would be potentially fatal to other competitors, but before they start moving they should have similar applications.

Nothing has even pointed to that being even possible in as short of a time to make it useful the caster would have maybe a few tenths of a second to do anything before the rest of the racers have cast their movement spells and are no longer at thhe gate.

maplehurry · 2014-06-30, 20:31

By the law of physics, it should be easier to break/blow away something than forming something, so usually there's no incentive for magicians to build a wall even if they are capable of it. However, i imagine that could be effectively achieved if it's the case of SEVERAL against one (for example, every other schools cooperate to slow down 1st High). If such thing is allowed, that would make the competition much more complicated. It would probably devolve into a battle between two factions and some degree of "match-fixing".

Ickarium · 2014-07-01, 00:14

At the heart, the competition is about magic, at any rate. There are physical stuff going on, but it's more a seasoning. So don't think of it as cheating because they're surfing, think of it as using magic creatively, which is the real purpose of the competition, to show off magic use. Remember the old guy's comment at the start of the arc. Creative magic trumps overly blatant uses (though he takes it further than the rest of the system). I'll comment further in the next episode or three.

HandofFate · 2014-07-01, 00:31

We can try to think up of 'cheater ways' that would probably go over the limit of reasonable use of magic in the board competition. + requiring massive amounts of magic power, and a 0.1 sec window.

But the purpose of Honoka using the flashback strategy was to show Tatsuya's ingenuity, going back to the old guy at the opening ceremony. What Honoka did was use a low level spell that required little power, and ended up stealing the whole race from it that no one ever thought of before.

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2014-06-29, 13:58	Link #65
kagato3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	She also wasn't surfing using her magic at the same time. and again directly attacking other contestants is against the rules __________________ Higurashi: Its a bit like watching a trainwreck, except you keep getting to see different trains wrecking with roughly the same passengers, into a variety of different objects. Also, the trains are driven by monkeys. On LSD.

2014-06-29, 15:28	Link #67
kagato3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	The rules state that the only things that can be done other then to oneself is to interfere with the surface of the water. It would take someone with an ungodly amount of ability to freeze enough of the water to be an impediment and throwing back ice like you suggested would be more of an attack then a disruption to the water surface. at best they could freeze a small bit and cause a splash not to mention there is less time to pull it off since the coordinate system is changing unless they stop which completely negates any usefulness of even trying. Your best option is to cause a wave or some other wide spread disruption of the water surface and they did do something like that in Mari's first match and it did all of nothing to her because she had anchored herself to the board. __________________ Higurashi: Its a bit like watching a trainwreck, except you keep getting to see different trains wrecking with roughly the same passengers, into a variety of different objects. Also, the trains are driven by monkeys. On LSD.

2014-06-29, 22:05	Link #70
Ickarium Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	Minor LN comment on the rules of battle board: Spoiler: The novels make it clear that you can't do anything to actually harm others. So if the spell, regardless of whether it affects the water only or not, is designed to hurt others, it's illegal. The books bring up specifically boiling or turning the water into ice spikes, for instance. __________________

2014-06-30, 20:31	Link #78
maplehurry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007	By the law of physics, it should be easier to break/blow away something than forming something, so usually there's no incentive for magicians to build a wall even if they are capable of it. However, i imagine that could be effectively achieved if it's the case of SEVERAL against one (for example, every other schools cooperate to slow down 1st High). If such thing is allowed, that would make the competition much more complicated. It would probably devolve into a battle between two factions and some degree of "match-fixing". Last edited by maplehurry; 2014-06-30 at 21:06.

2014-06-29, 14:31	Link #66
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	But doing stuff to the water isn't. If that loophole's good enough for Honoka, it should be good enough for anybody else.

2014-06-29, 21:14	Link #68
Magewolf Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006	How can a major criminal gang not know how to run a book on a high school sports meet? They do all deserve to be killed for incompetence, if nothing else.

2014-06-30, 13:45	Link #76
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	What about erecting a wall of ice right at the start, similar to how Honoka used a blinding light right at the start? Mid-race, both would be potentially fatal to other competitors, but before they start moving they should have similar applications.

2014-07-01, 00:14	Link #79
Ickarium Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	At the heart, the competition is about magic, at any rate. There are physical stuff going on, but it's more a seasoning. So don't think of it as cheating because they're surfing, think of it as using magic creatively, which is the real purpose of the competition, to show off magic use. Remember the old guy's comment at the start of the arc. Creative magic trumps overly blatant uses (though he takes it further than the rest of the system). I'll comment further in the next episode or three. __________________

2014-07-01, 00:31	Link #80
HandofFate Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006	We can try to think up of 'cheater ways' that would probably go over the limit of reasonable use of magic in the board competition. + requiring massive amounts of magic power, and a 0.1 sec window. But the purpose of Honoka using the flashback strategy was to show Tatsuya's ingenuity, going back to the old guy at the opening ceremony. What Honoka did was use a low level spell that required little power, and ended up stealing the whole race from it that no one ever thought of before. __________________ ...