To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Character Discussion - Saten "Level 0" Ruiko

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by nikohowell

i woudn't call her badass but having stronger esper/magic power would really help her

What? Don't you know that bat of hers? That bat can pierce the heavens. One swing and Accelerator would fly to the moon.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

I think it's less about wanting to make her a badass and more about wanting to see more of her in the series - which would almost certainly require that she could make herself useful somehow in more than a cheerleader capacity.

Saten is even more protected than Mikoto in that regard. I doubt that would change any time soon.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

What? Don't you know that bat of hers? That bat can pierce the heavens. One swing and Accelerator would fly to the moon.

True story.


Anyway, I might as well dump this PM convo here that I had about Saten, since I wrote too damn much and it would just be a waste otherwise:

Originally Posted by Haak

I suppose it's important to start off with what my opinions are on the first season to provide some appropriate context. To be brutally honest with you, I actually thought Index was slightly better than Railgun. The thing I liked about the ToAruVerse was this whole dark mystery surrounding the Magic world and the darkness of the Science side. Touma didn't nearly come across as annoying to me as he did with most people, and I just loved the priceless comedy associated with his misfortune. Whilst there was plenty to lol about in Railgun (most of the comedy coming from Kuroko), the comedy wasn't as funny to me. Not to mention that the entire main cast is female. I don't know about you, but I need a male character I can connect with. All girl shows like K-On rarely ever work for me. Emotional involvement with the characters is important to me, when watching an anime, and I just can’t get that much from a bunch of girly-girls that I have nothing in common with. Plus Railgun has a lot more 'easy going' feel of things, and I liked Index's "Dark and intense" feel better. So in the end, Railgun was never really going to be better. Not that it wasn't much worse. I really love the ToAruVerse but I gave Index a 7, because of its many flaws and I stand by that. Railgun doesn’t deserve anything less than a 7, though as well. So I guess Railgun is merely just a somewhat weaker 7.

The Level Upper storyline was great and all, but it only consisted of a few episodes and relied on a lot of single episodes at the beginning to set the scene. The arcs that followed afterwards weren't that great and were average at best, except for the last episode which I think ended strongly, despite some clichés. In fact, I'd say that Railgun was considerably worse than Index, if Saten wasn't in the the show. As it stands though, Saten is what made me consider the Railgun series more than average, although she alone couldn't really make it better than Index because she was only truly the focus for a handful of episodes.

With that in mind, the context when going into the second season of Railgun was like this: It's an expanded version of the Sisters arc which I liked in Index. However, simply being an expanded version of an Index arc means it could never truly surpass Index because Index has a lot more going for it. So my feeling was that it would simply be a side story of Index, rather than something in its own right, like Saten's story was.

As for Saten's involvement, I already knew she had no involvement in the Railgun manga telling of the Sisters arc so I wasn't expecting much from her here. Since I had no idea how different the Sisters arc in Railgun would be to the Sisters arc in Index, my initial hopes were that she'd be fully integrated into the Sisters arc and have true relevance. But after considering the whole of the Railgun Sisters arc, I've come to the conclusion that the only way that could possibly end for Saten is a death scene. And that would probably make me give up on life altogether.

Now from a narrative perspective, Saten, Uiharu and Kuroko deserve to be included and fully integrated in the Sisters arc because they're Misaka's friends and the Railgun anime has built up the "four member crime busting team" as its main theme. It's main theme: It's what Railgun was all about. It may have been a crappy and cliché theme but it was sincere and heartfelt. To disregard that is to create a massive inconsistency in its narrative.

However, the reality is that Saten was never meant to be a part of the Sisters arc, and the only way to have Saten involved and stay alive at the end of the arc would be to fundamentally change the story and have it completely contradict the Index version. As much as I like Saten, the fact of that the matter is that twisting events that then contradicts established canon would feel like a massive retcon. Even worse, if there's no sign that the author is okay with it then that essentially means the sincerity of the source material is being jeopardised by the person adapting it. If the person adapting the story isn't being faithful to the original story then that means the original isn't being treated with respect. And if the original isn't being treated with respect, then that shows to me that there's a lack of sincerity involved in the storytelling. The best adaptations are those that have a great love of the original story because that love ends up showing in the adaptation itself.

Ultimately it's about making the best out of a bad situation, and I think when it comes down to it, it's more important to remain true to the original even if it does create a narrative inconsistency. Nagai did at least make an effort to show that Saten and the others were in the background and that too has its pros and cons. The pro is that it lessens the narrative inconsistency somewhat, as the show does not completely disregard them altogether. The con, however, is that it makes the giant differences in tone and narrative all that more apparent. The obvious example is Saten who, as you've correctly pointed out, doesn't deserve to be degraded as a background character and that makes it all the more apparent. Once again, this is about picking the least bad choice and I think ultimately Nagai made the right decision.

Thankfully, I was able to overlook these flaws for the most part because the Railgun Sisters arc was just so damn awesome and much better than I had anticipated. I didn't think it could surpass Index but it actually did. The Sisters are far more likeable and sympathetic, and their frequent tragic moments can be really gut wrenching. There's so much more expansion into the Sisters' and Misaka's characters that's well worth the watch. As a whole I was far more emotionally involved in the Railgun version of the Sisters arc than the Index version, and I'd heavily recommend watching it.

As for what happens after the Sisters arc, I don't want to see the Sisters treated the same way as Misaka's friends and want them to remain the focus of the show. This season has been all about the Sisters, so I hoped that the show would remain consistent to that narrative and make the remainder of the season stick to focusing on them. It would've probably been better if Misaka's friends remain in the background because for me they've been far too detached to this story to be convincingly reintroduced as part of the main cast. The whole "four member squad" was dealt a very significant blow in the Sisters arc and I just think it rings a bit hollow now. I suppose they could try and build it back up again but to be truth it just feels like they’re pretended there wasn’t any blow to begin with. Plus I have a fear that their reintroduction will make the story shift into the more light-hearted direction we saw last season, and the content there wasn't much to brag about (besides Saten obviously). It would make the story seemed like it climaxed too early. However, if there is a way to have this new arc be about the Sisters, whilst remaining just as dark as the Sisters arc AND include Misaka's friends, then that could potentially fix the damage that the Sisters arc caused. I'm not optimistic though.

At this point you're probably pissed at me with some of the things I've said. Well so be it: I love Saten but I love her reasonably. It's not nice to see her degraded as a background character but I definitely don't want to see her character being used to jeopardize the sincerity of the story. In my eyes, that would be an even worse use of her character.

As for Saten's fashion, she looks awesome all the time.
I never fail to love every new outfit she has.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Saten is even more protected than Mikoto in that regard. I doubt that would change any time soon.

Well, yes; i'm sure if she hadn't turned out to be popular with some not-insignificant portion of the fanbase we would have heard the last of her a long time ago. Kamachi pretty clearly has no big plans for her and the anime writers are constrained by canon - but she's not dead yet, so we can still dream.

[Triple_R]

I think that Saten's role is to be an important character that represents Jane Average School-Girl in Academy City. That's not to say that she's an average character, quality-wise, but just to say that she's supposed to represent what a "normal person" in Academy City feels like living there. Normal in the sense that she's not a high-level esper and she's not in Judgement.

While the Core Four are indeed a close-knit circle of friends, they have two important internal divisions amongst them.

Mikoto - Level 5 Esper, not in Judgement
Kuroko - Level 4 Esper (IIRC), in Judgement
Uiharu - Not a high-level Esper, in Judgement
Saten - Not a high-level Esper, not in Judgement

Between these four, all the major role/perspective combinations are covered. With powers or without? Just a civilian, or not?

The Level Upper Arc is particularly noteworthy here. Mikoto couldn't relate to the level uppers because she's a Level 5. Kuroko couldn't relate to them and she favors firm law and order due to being in Judgement. Uiharu could relate somewhat to them, but being in Judgement trumps any feelings of level inadequacy. Saten is the one of the four that could relate to the Level Uppers and didn't have any Judgement role/responsibility to limit that. So Saten became an excellent example of how the Level Uppers were actually sympathetic characters and shouldn't be seen as particularly villainous.

However, Saten's position means that she'll be the least involved in combat situations out of the entire foursome.

Mikoto is the lead character, and by far the most powerful offensively, so she leads the charge in combat situations.

Kuroko is the 2nd most powerful character and is in Judgement, so she'll be in a fair number of combat situations.

Uiharu is in Judgement, so she'll end up getting involved sometimes (like she did in the climax of the Level Upper Arc).

Saten is the one least likely to be there in combat situations, so it's only natural that she'll fall into the background (if not go entirely off-screen for a significant stretch of episodes) during arcs with lots of combat.


One good thing though is that I fine that Saten shines brightly in more lowkey episodes because she kind of feels the most natural there. I think she adds a lot to this show, and that her role is invaluable to it.

[Draco Spirit]

Role wise Saten also one of the most sane and level headed characters too. Through she has a few quirks and moments of weakness, she is by and large emotionally stable, reasonable and funny.

Mikoto - Clear maturity and anger management issues. Also during the sister arc she was close to mental breakdown.

Kuroko - Extremely obsessive and tendency to be ruled by her lust. She also has Mikoto based delusions. Outside Mikoto, she is still very impulsive.

Uiharu - fangirl tendencies, somewhat of a nervous and under confident character in general. More grounded than other two girls however.

IMHO Febli went for Saten because Saten gave warm friendly feeling off from the start. I suspect Mikoto having the hardest time because she gives off dangerous aggressive vibes.. plus considering she knows Mikoto's name, she might have been told some less than flattering details about her.

[Ashaman]

Role wise Saten also one of the most sane and level headed characters too. Through she has a few quirks and moments of weakness, she is by and large emotionally stable, reasonable and funny.

Really? In my eyes she has an inferiority complex, cat killing levels of curiosity with no sense of awareness and isn't really funny at all.

You can't call someone emotionally stable when her main contribution to the first arc is taking drugs because she felt inferior, having a bad habit of walking into dangerous situations really hurts any argument that she's reasonable cause any reasonable person would evaluate the situation and listen to what people are telling her and not once has she ever made me laugh out loud with any of her antics.

[R.LocK]

That's an extremely anti-Saten flavoured opinion.

[Ashaman]

Well yeah its an anti-Saten opinion.

Those exist.

I like Saten. I found her character arc in Level Upper very heartwrenching, her tidbits on Urban Legends are interesting and her friendship with the other girls is heartwarming

But Draco was blatently ignoing her faults.

Nothing I've said is wrong (apart from maybe the funny thing - her trolling is decently amusing 70% of the time, but most of the time her flipping Uiharu's skirt and those little quirks like tha bore me).

What Draco did is basically focus on the girls at thier worst whilst focusing on Saten at her best.

I like Saten.

But I'm not blind to her faults, and nor do I want her to become a "badass" beause I'd see it as a betrayal of her character.

[Triple_R]

Well, I think that Saten is emotionally stable now. I think that the Level Upper arc was a trial she probably had to go through in order to (mostly) get over her inferiority complex.

But of course she's going to feel a bit inferior no matter what, given the people she regularly hangs out with.

Saten isn't a girl that makes me LOL, but she's endearing and generally fun to watch.

I admittedly don't get the skirt-flip thing with Uiharu though. I guess it's just mindless fanservice for the sake of fanservice? I don't get the vibe that Saten is yuri for Uiharu, and I am a big yuri fan.

[R.LocK]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Explanation

The lack of sleep makes some wonders with my attention span. Sorry, got your point now.

[Haak]

Saten may have taken drugs as part of the esper program but I assume they all have anyway. Otherwise she's not taken any drugs. She's used the Level upper but that's sound programe and she was not aware of any side effects, nor does it seem to be addictive so comparing it to taking drugs is a bit extreme if not misleading. If she had been aware then she most likely would've stayed away. In any case her first thought was to hand over the Level upper and she only kept it because she was constantly reminded of where she was in the pecking order at just the wrong time so what we really saw was Saten at her worst moment, which can't really be considered a reliable representative of her character.

As for whether she's funny or not: well that's just a matter of taste in comedy.

To be fair though, when it comes to who is the most level headed, I don't think any girl has an edge over the other.

As for having bad habits of walking into dangerous situation, it's hard for her to listen to anyone when nobody actually says anything and show usually applauds her for it. I don't think it could really be considered a bad habit or even a habit at all considering she certainly isn't reckless about it. She certainly has a sense of awareness as we pretty much see all the time. For example, in one of her truly defining moments in episode 9, she' s heavily conflicted over whether he should help a guy who could possibly be in lethal danger and is actually initially leaning against intervention.

[Ashaman]

so comparing it to taking drugs is a bit extreme if not misleading

Okay, that's a reasonable criticism.

Saten took illegal performance enhancers with unknown side effects.

Better?

what we really saw was Saten at her worst moment, which can't really be considered a reliable representative of her character.

Actually it can.

A persons actions can't and shouldn't be dismissed just because they are at their worst.

When Saten was at her worst, she took Level Upper.

When Mikoto was at her worst she was nigh suicidal in her efforts to save her clones.

When Kuroko was at her worst, left to die by Awaki, she thought of Misaka and her safety.

It might be a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it would be wrong to say that, when a person is pushed to the edge is when you can see them at their truest and most honest.

As for having bad habits of walking into dangerous situation, it's hard for her to listen to anyone when nobody actually says anything and show usually applauds her for it. I don't think it could really be considered a bad habit or even a habit at all considering she certainly isn't reckless about it. She certainly has a sense of awareness as we pretty much see all the time.

Really?

Like that time she walked into the restricted area in Daihesai looking for Shadow Metal and all her friends basically told her she was being stupid.

Or the same with the facility she checks out and Xochitl saves her and spends the next 4-5 pages berating her for being stupid. Or in the Railgun SS when she charges into a restricted section shouting about a casino while ignoring Mikoto's repeated warnings that its not a casino, or carelessly wandering through AC back alleys and getting chased by thugs.

Saten, more often than not, doesn't think about the dangers involved and ends up needing help.

[Bakaizer]

^ simply put, all characters have negative tendencies, touma and accelerator included
but that's simply pointing to one side of the coin
your negative view on saten seems to be on your own perspective
don't forget that saten also possess qualities that we all like

[Ashaman]

Why does everyone seem to think I have a negative view on Saten?

I'm pointing out objective faults with her character that others are either blatantly ignoring or trying their hardest to dismiss out of hand.

I like Saten. I find her interesting.

I don't like people ignoring parts of her character because it doesn't fit their idolized view of her.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Why does everyone seem to think I have a negative view on Saten?

I'm pointing out objective faults with her character that others are either blatantly ignoring or trying their hardest to dismiss out of hand.

I like Saten. I find her interesting.

I don't like people ignoring parts of her character because it doesn't fit their idolized view of her.

I agree with you here. I sort of like Saten, but I don't get the obsessive love that people have for her. I mean she's an alright character but she isn't the messiah or anything and she has flaws.

Personally the only time I liked her a lot was during the level upper arc where she was showing off her serious flaws. If that makes sense.

[demino_hellsin]

It's because she was set-up to be a flawed character that makes her endearing. She's not like Misaka who has a major role or Kuroko who isn't so major but is still powerful. Even Uiharu has her hacking skills that rank within the top 10 of academy city(normal hacking).

Saten has nothing, she is human but still tries to do things which are usually jobs for the superhuman espers in their party or even the gifted like uiharu.

What she does isn't always right, she isn't very bright, but in the end she always makes up for it one way or another.

Basically she is one of those underdog characters.

[zaeraal]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Why does everyone seem to think I have a negative view on Saten?

Well, what you posted sounded really negative.

Her taking Level Upper:
You can't forget she is a 12 year old girl who can't yet reason like you and have not read 20+ books describing the most secret stuff going on in AC.
She lives in a city, where everyone denies by every possible mean that anything bad exists there.
And is told by teachers from very young age that with effort you can fullfil all of your dreams, while reminded by everyone else that if you don't, you are a loser.
If this is not enough pressure put upon her, don't forget the events that lead to her taking it.
She didn't even knew it was bad or had side-effects, Kuroko and co. only said they arrest people that used it.

Given her circumstances and age, I can't even see it as something bad, I on her place would not even waited that long.

You said that:

Originally Posted by Ashaman

when a person is pushed to the edge is when you can see them at their truest and most honest.

But the circumstances were different for all of them.

Saten TRIED TO SAVE THAT GUY, but could not, instead Kuroko saved him.
She was pushed to the edge of how useless she is when compared to others.
So she decided to take Level Upper, so she would not have to be that useless ever again.

Mikoto wanted to protect the Sister from being murdered at all costs even if it meant her death and used all options to save them, EVEN MAKING THE WHOLE AC HER ENEMY.
When everything failed, she decided to die to save them and atone for the sin of making them.

Kuroko was protecting her onee-sama with her life and when everything failed, she couldn't do anything anymore.
She didn't had any options there, no Level Upper, no option to die to save her, nothing, so she just thought of her and her safety.

Both Mikoto and Kuroko went to the edge to protect what they wanted, but they didn't had the Level Upper by they side to decide whenever to take it or not.
Considering how far they was willing to go, they would have took it if they had option.

Her doing Urban Rumor hunting:
Ok, this is not exactly positive trait, but also can't be considered negative.
It's dangerous and reckless, sometimes a bit stupid, but it's not like when you hurt people, steal stuff or commit other kind of real crimes.

It is a TRAIT that makes her character UNIQUE and enjoyable and it helps to make the story a bit more interesting.
This is currently her only way to be involved in the story, without it, she would just disappear.

Other characters have their "negative" traits too and they also can't be considered really negative.
Mikoto - being reckless and also heading to danger just like Saten, destrying everything around when she goes "biri biri" (notably when around Touma) including peoples's mobile phones, TVs.., hacking computers, breaking Curfew, smuggling perfumes and other prohibited stuff into her Dorm.

Kuroko - Buying and using illegal drugs (love potions) harrasment, stalking, taking photos of Mikoto without permission, ignoring her Judgement duty when it comes to her onee-sama, but being absolutely strict with everyone else.

Uiharu - gluttony , hiding the stuff she does on computers, goint into really dangerous situations she can't handle (the "it is her duty" is not going to work here).

The only trait that I ever considered bad, I mean really bad from my side was Mikoto's - lying to her friends and abandoning them when she does dangerous stuff.
I can't get over that one, but others are OK (from anime point of view).


To sum it up:
I know she has her faults like being a bit reckless and not thinking twice about what she is doing, but it makes her character really refreshing and I would prefer if she kept them.
The other one "taking Level Upper" or in my words "not being 8 years older to able to reason everything calmly" is not her "fault", more like "expected outcome given the setting".


I'll also add here this:

Originally Posted by Ashaman

But I'm not blind to her faults, and nor do I want her to become a "badass" beause I'd see it as a betrayal of her character.

I do not see "becoming badass" as a betrayal of her character.
Of course not talking about Touma_Level_Badassnes, but learning how to handle herself without having to always rely on others would be a great development for her.

She does not have powers nor skills and from perspective of fans she is the "normal person in a world ruled by superpowers".
So she is the first person you can empathize with, which can really get you into the story, BUT it's over when a battle starts.
And that really kills the mood, for her to be always put aside like that, without any chance to do anything.

I really hope she can do something about that, either get some "cool" weapon, learn a bit of self defense or get some powers.
Development of a Character Personality is very important (like the Level Upper arc), but Development of Character Skills is also as important.
This is what makes the 2D characters feel 3D (and alive).

If done correctly, I am sure, that even the fans that see her as the "normal person" would not mind.
I know she can't beat the likes of Accel or Mugino, BUT
- I am sure there are battles she can play an important role in and foes she can defeat on her own.


The really sad thing is that manga is taking a completly different direction.
Even after Mikoto-Centered ITEM / Sister arcs, the situation has not much changed.
Mikoto is the characters that "knows everything" and is constantly in the center of attention, while Saten (and co.) "does not knows anything" and are completly left on side.

Even when Shirai appeared in last chapter she said "You are all under arrest until I figure out what is going on".
This really kills any chances for Saten (and co.) to shine or for their appearance to not felt forced.
Not even talking about getting any character development...

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Okay, that's a reasonable criticism.

Saten took illegal performance enhancers with unknown side effects.

Better?

Well it wasn't illegal, but she did know that judgement were taking people into protective custody. That's actually what scared her off of handing it over.

Actually it can.

A persons actions can't and shouldn't be dismissed just because they are at their worst.

When Saten was at her worst, she took Level Upper.

When Mikoto was at her worst she was nigh suicidal in her efforts to save her clones.

When Kuroko was at her worst, left to die by Awaki, she thought of Misaka and her safety.

It might be a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it would be wrong to say that, when a person is pushed to the edge is when you can see them at their truest and most honest.

I don't think it should be dismissed outright which is why I made the assessment that no character had an edge over the other. But considering it as a reliable representation of someone's character is definitely not something I can agree to. If someone were to be a perfectly reasonable level headed and absolute stand up guy that generally responds well under stress but when the world conspired to screw him over, he completely lost it before realising his mistakes, should that one moment really be considered a true representation of their character? That's not when they're truest and most honest. When someone is at their worst then that logically follows that it's not normal for them to be in that state. And if they're not normal in that state then that can't represent them.

Really?

Like that time she walked into the restricted area in Daihesai looking for Shadow Metal and all her friends basically told her she was being stupid.

Or the same with the facility she checks out and Xochitl saves her and spends the next 4-5 pages berating her for being stupid. Or in the Railgun SS when she charges into a restricted section shouting about a casino while ignoring Mikoto's repeated warnings that its not a casino,

Bear in mind that I haven't seen anything other than the anime and that goes the same for a lot of other people, so if those haven't happened in the anime yet (and I'm assuming they haven't since none of those ring any bells) then please put them under spoiler tags.

That said, no offence but I'm not taking your word on any of that either.

or carelessly wandering through AC back alleys and getting chased by thugs.

Well that has certainly happened in the anime and it certainly is careless, although it should also be pointed out that she uses back alleys all the time and it's happened only happened once and we haven't seen her use any back alleys since that one incident.

Saten, more often than not, doesn't think about the dangers involved and ends up needing help.

This is pretty much the opposite what I've seen portrayed in the anime. She was certainly aware of the dangers she was taken in the first episode when she steeled herself to help that little boy, or the ninth episode when she steeled herself to help that guy who was getting beaten up. We also saw her steeling herself again in the first episode of the second season when she decides to follow Mikoto out of the window. So saying that she has no awareness at all doesn't make sense to me.

[Ashaman]

Well it wasn't illegal, but she did know that judgement were taking people into protective custody. That's actually what scared her off of handing it over.

At the very least she was aware that law enforcement officials were against it and treating it as something people shouldn't be taking.

But considering it as a reliable representation of someone's character is definitely not something I can agree to......

I may have badly phrased that. I meant it more as when someone does something at their lowest, that is a part of them. People shouldn't be judged solely on their lowest point, but at the same time you must consider those actions as a part of them.

There's more to it than that, but I have trouble putting it into words so I'll just leave it at that.

then please put them under spoiler tags

You're right. Sorry about that. I've been detached from the board for awhile and so am still not entirely used to the Railgun/Index split, back when spoilers were much more openly talked about.

That said, no offence but I'm not taking your word on any of that either.

None taken. My opinion, as is the case of all opinions, is obviously biased. I'd provide quotes, but without the context it'd be unfair for you.

This is pretty much the opposite what I've seen portrayed in the anime.

And this why we have differing opinions on the subject.

I've seen the anime, but in my head I have the manga as my mental reference point.

And lets just say the anime loves Saten to the point where she takes other characters scenes.