2014-11-24, 08:47 | Link #34721 |
Chasing Echoes
Join Date: Jul 2014
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EP8 manga was intended to be a canon more fleshed out version of the VN version, right? I hear that Ryukishi confirmed that the manga adaption for the series in general is canon.
Other than that, thanks for the chapter. Totally needed a morning read. Featherine is a bloody monster. Lambda literally didn't even know what hit her Last edited by Y Ddraig Goch; 2014-11-24 at 11:26. |
2014-11-24, 11:23 | Link #34722 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Kind of disappointed that they didn't show the bit where Lambda and Bern created that universe. I always wondered how that would be depicted considering that none of the book cases fell over or anything.
Thank you for the translations though. I've enjoyed reading them. |
2014-11-25, 19:43 | Link #34723 | ||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Thank you for the translations, Haguruma!
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And his image song is creepy! Seriously, the lyrics here do not make him sound good. (Speaking of which, Judoh doesn't seem to be around any more, but I always liked their George Culprit Analysis...) And yet, he really did love Shannon, and Ryukishi has stated that George would probably have been fine with the truth. I don't like him, but he probably wasn't a bad guy at heart. Quote:
I'm sure George could have handled being told about Shannon not being able to have kids and why, but I do wonder what he would think about all the rest of the things that were going on - the history of Kinzo and Beatrices 1 and 2, Natsuhi trying to kill baby Lion, and various things about Shannon's upbringing. I can imagine that he would be furious. Actually, maybe if he was told about that, it would have been the kind of wake-up call that he needed, realising that he'd been selfishly only seeing the romance from his own perspective and having not known that the person he was in love with was suffering such a lot. |
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2014-11-26, 02:55 | Link #34724 | |
Senior Member
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Btw. in chapter 31 there is also a very beautifully sad scene when the Golden Land finally crumbles (and it is heartbreaking to see it put into pictures) Spoiler for Picture:
It's really interesting though, seeing who gets to catch who. Shannon gets caught by George and Kanon by Jessica (which is really sad and sweet), Krauss tries to catch Natsuhi but fails, Genji protecting Lion is kinda nice to see, Gohda protecting Kumasawa and Nanjo kind of surprised me. What's really nice and heartbreaking is how Rosa clutches unto Maria and even has Sakutaro hanging on her skirt. And in kind of an ironic twist Belphegor is grasping for Rudolph and Leviathan is grasping for Kyrie...kind of telling about their personalities. I do hope this little elements were talked out with Ryukishi, since they're too awesome not to be canon. |
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2014-11-27, 16:25 | Link #34725 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
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But still, I have to bow in awe at Ryukishi's skill. When I first read this, all I saw was 'sweet, almost boring love', I could never guess it was something much more complex. Ryukishi has this certain ability to hide important truth in a pretty normal scenes, or hiding multiple interpretations in one moment. Finishing the game, allowed me to look at a previous games from completely different perspective, and that's why it's amazing. edit: oh, so manga isn't canon? |
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2014-11-28, 05:20 | Link #34726 |
Senior Member
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Oh, the manga is canon.
It's just always a question if really EVERY page is run by Ryűkishi, or if they just do a general briefing over the script where he tells the artist what kind of information to insert and how, but the way scenes are drawn in smallest details are still left more or less to the artist. Ryűkishi is the supervising editor for the manga. I think we all assume that he learned his lesson after the first season of Higurashi. |
2014-11-30, 04:47 | Link #34727 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I wish Ryűkishi made TIPS like in Higurashi to add additional scenes which didn't made it in the main story.
If the manga left out and altered many information from the VN so why did Ryűkishi put extras in the manga? Compensation or artistic licence of the artist? This could mean...pachi-slot is also canon? |
2014-11-30, 05:15 | Link #34728 |
貴方が私のマスターか?
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
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It didn't alter any information, it gave you additional ones. Ryukishi put extra hints and revelations in the Manga because we have people like ex_ploit still bullshiting about Rosatrice theory, or Jessicatrice or whatever that guy believed in.
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2014-11-30, 07:43 | Link #34729 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I like the way people think about new theories because the game said "don't stop thinking". What's wrong about making theories like Rosatrice? But it would be more enjoyable to read them without arguing against a theory and calling it shitty. But that is called broken fanbase.
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2014-11-30, 08:20 | Link #34730 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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To be exact the manga was always overlooked by Ryukishi and kept the correct informations, here and there adding extra info, even if occasionally it shortened a scene or postponed a dialogue.
I've did a long comparation of the VN, the manga and the anime for Ep 1, which is the shortest in its manga version and I've made sure it kept all the important details for the episode's solution. Personally I tend to consider the manga as the 'easy' version of the mystery of Umineko, cutting the unnecessary scenes and giving out more hints than the VN did. Quote:
As long as there weren't the manga and the interviews we couldn't check who arrived to the solution and multiple truths could exist, same as in game 5 where Battler and Erika both managed to propose a theory that could work, although, funny enough, neither theory was right and Erika's theory was considered downright worse and a lot weaker. However as more info are released we begin a Battler similar to the one between Battler and Beato in Ep 4 Teaparty. Battler proposes a theory and Beatrice gives out a red truth that deny it so Battler has to propose another theory that will work considering that red truth also. In the same way we made theories and we've to check if the additional info denies them. If they don't our theories can still work, if they get denied instead we've to make new ones. With the many additional info released there's still room for theories but it has gotten a lot tighter than it was with only the VN. For example we've a lot more info about what Ange read in Eva's diary so we can't anymore assume that... let's say, Eva never shot to anyone in the room of the gold. We know she shoot at least one blow. We also know they met Beatrice and she handed them the card. We know Natsuhi was the first to die, then Krauss then Rosa and Hideyoshi. We know at last Eva was shoot too but evidently not fatally. We know that Eva saw that Jessica and George were dead and that there was dead people in the dinner room as well. So if you want to construct a theory about what really happened on Rokkenjima you've to keep into consideration those facts. And the same applies for everything else. Due to all this a Rosatrice theory usually comes on being denied because it generally violates the new info we were given, most of them in form of red truth. Of course, if someone manages to make a Rosatrice theory that will circle around the new info it will be more than welcome but so far all the theories I've seen about Rosatrice denies the new info. It's as if when Battler in Ep 4 has said in blue that the Kinzo people claimed to have seen was a double and Beato had countered in red that no one could mistake Kinzo Ushiromiya by sight he had told her, sorry, you gave this red too late, I reject it claiming it's all deception and insist my theory still stand. So, really, new theories are cool but only as long as they don't deny things according to their own convenience. Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-11-30 at 09:15. |
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2014-11-30, 09:21 | Link #34731 |
貴方が私のマスターか?
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
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Rosatrice looks like this, no offense.
"Oh, there is an answer in EP7. I don't like this answer." *ryukishi further confirms the answer in interviews* "It's all bullshit, I don't believe it." *ryukishi adds more info in Manga* "It's not canon, I'm not listening." It looks really desperate, that's why I am this hostile. |
2014-11-30, 09:41 | Link #34732 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The fact that the anime royally messed up Umineko might encourage people to think the manga also isn't a worth media so they don't really try to pay it attention. So... yes, they're in denial but sometimes they might not realize this. |
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2014-11-30, 10:49 | Link #34733 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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What's the commonly accepted (culprit)-solution in the community? Yasu became Beatrice and created 2 personas known as Shannon and Kanon?
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Example: What if Yasu is actually Beatrice and Kanon exist as a separate person who pretends as Shannon (not persona-wise) while the real Shannon is dead? I didn't check it but maybe it's not as wrong as it looks. Well, Lion could appear in front of Kanon and Shannon...unless it's a magic scene. |
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2014-11-30, 10:53 | Link #34734 | ||
貴方が私のマスターか?
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
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Lion appeared before Kanon and Shannon because Bernkastel had two kinds of Kakera smashed into one. Will was noticing contradictions when people remembered stuff they couldn't possibly have remembered and didn't know about stuff they should have known. Shannon doesn't know who Lion is because of this same reason. Bernkastel just wanted to lay out all the material out there so that the truth can be easily found. She doesn't care if the world itself is inconsistent.
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2014-11-30, 12:07 | Link #34735 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Spoiler for Here it's the solution as confirmed by sources:
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However the additional info given worked to cut down all the solutions that wasn't the right ones. It's no more additional informations that could be interpreted. It's 'this is what happened' or 'this doesn't happen'. For example the manga denied the possibility of a Battler culprit theory in ep 5 by having Beato claiming in red that in none of the games prior to Bern's one Battler was the culprit, not just in the first 4. In short while with just the VN it was possible to make a Battler culprit theory for Ep 5, once the manga gave that red all the Battler culprit theories for Ep 5 are crushed down. As you can see this isn't additional info that pushes you to make more theories but it's additional info that helps you to get rid of the wrong theories. I hope this clears up things. |
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2014-12-01, 07:16 | Link #34736 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
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There is a scene somewhere in the beginning of Episode 7 where Will and Lion are outside the Chapel and the flower goes outside the Kakera and starts to wilt. My original interpretation is that as soon as the catbox closes, the rose disappears. My newer interpretation is to do with the fact that the rose is no longer 'observed' (as in Schrodinger's cat) and therefore its state is dead and alive at the same time. When the characters next come to observe it, it turns out the rose is dead. My thoughts on this are still a bit wishy-washy, so if it sounds confused, it was because I am still confused :S
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2014-12-01, 15:18 | Link #34738 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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You're welcome!
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Well, if you mean Asumu's child, the one that Battler replaced, the manga confirmed that in Ange's time is a well known fact that Asumu's child died and Rudolf paid a doctor to replace it with the one of his mistress. That's why in Ep 4 Ange suspects what Beato wants to do when she starts questioning Battler about his mother. Because everyone in Ange's time knew and Ange was even bullied over it. I think that with the usage of names you refer to the fact that you can count Shannon and Kanon as separate people yet they've one body, yes? In truth this doesn't get explained because the whole dynamic of the thing it's tied to the Japanese language. As I'm definitely not the best person to explain how Japanese language work I recommend you to read this which explain how the body count worked in Japanese (there are also awesome posts on this thread but I can't find them right now). I've to admit I've no idea what you mean with personal pronouns so I can't really help you here. Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-12-01 at 17:11. |
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2014-12-01, 20:08 | Link #34739 |
Chasing Echoes
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Off-topic, but in EP6 when Chick Beatrice is questioning why she loves Battler, she refers to the person who created her and gave her the goal of being loved back by Battler as oka-sama. Was this Sayo shaping Beatrice (from Clair/prototype to Beato) to be Battler's ideal woman and passing on her love for him to him or the original Beatrice passing on her traits to Chick Beato (I know it's the same person technically, but wanted to know what medium she used)? Ugh, my interpretation ability is meh :/
I hope the manga will elaborate a tad bit more on the Fukuin House reunion end. I know Ryukishi told us it's up to us to decide the end, so to say but here's to hoping the manga establishes vanilla end and not Tohya passing out for like a second |
2014-12-01, 20:43 | Link #34740 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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However this new Beatrice is also something Battler recreated using the old Beatrice as a model in hope to reincarnate her or something along the line. So in a way she's born out of the first Beato as well. Which is the vanilla end? Though I too would like for the manga to elaborate more the ending. |
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