2010-06-04, 11:43 | Link #10801 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Okay, I was reading EP1 lately and I read carefully the second twilight part.
First of all : Let's settle the red : RED : Quote:
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ANALYSIS AND INTERPRETATIONS : Quote:
*plays Core in the music room* 1.2.3 and I-II- : Genji could have set the letter before heading back to the kitchen. and Kanon, Kumasawa and Nanjo could have done this too, when Genji was calling for Natsuhi. However, it will means that the distance between the kitchen and the bedroom is smaller that the distance between the parlor and the kitchen, because it would be impossible to come back without running or without knowing that Genji would not immediately head back to the kitchen. 4.5. and III- :VERY VERY VERY VERY suspicious part here, how can they don't even notice the corpse ? .The part where they see the corpse is omitted. or Kumasawa is involved in the 1st twilight. or even more foolish Go in the storehouse, which is far in the rose garden, pick a tool, and going back next to the door, running with Kumasawa falling here and here, IN 5 MINUTES ?...There is maybe another storehouse somewhere else. And for the rest of the game : When they unlocked the storehouse, it was possible for Shannon or Krauss to escape from it, and due to III-, Kanon and Kumasawa propably didn't notice. 4.5. and VI- : Genji went in the parlor, where Natshui and the cousins were. Kanon and Kumasawa were in the storehouse...so...only Nanjo could have drawn the magic circle that is not a circle. However, 7. ! It takes more time to Nanjo and Genji to call for Natsuhi than Kanon and Kumasawa. Genji could have drawn it before getting in the parlor, who knows. 6. : The chain might be a fake chain. 7. -IV : Maybe it wants to tell us that "Hideyoshi was actally taking a bath, the corpse didn't get moved here afterwards." (I can't use red, so I made "faint" red). So...to sum up... Who put the envelope ? Kanon, Kumasawa, Nanjo or Genji are the only one without alibis. Who drew the sign on the door ? Nanjo or Genji. Was it possible for someone in the parlor to leave ? Only if Natsuhi or Battler fall asleep. Natsuhi have a gun and Battler is our RELIABLE person, as the detective. (but incompetent) But...I will go with Knox's 8th here. Was it possible for someone in the storehouse to leave ? Even if they faked their death, with the locks, they could leave only after Kanon and Kumasawa unlocked it. And if Krauss of Shannon did that, they had to run fast to reach the room of the murder before Kanon and Kumasawa. So...who killed them ? I can make a theory with Genji/Nanjo as the killer I can make a theory with Kanon/Kumasawa as the killer The first one : When Genji knock on the door, Eva was alive and Hideyoshi was taking a shower. However, as shown with the recipe scene, Eva was doubting the servant to hide Kinzo death, so she was suspecting the servants. It's why she didn't open the door first. Kanon left. Then, Genji decided to talk about the letter out loud. Eva think it was a letter for her and opened the door. Genji enters, kills Hideyoshi and Eva. Then he use X to fake the chain that Kanon will cut later...or the servants are all acomplice and Kanon never cut any chain at all. And the second Kanon killed Eva and Hideyoshi when he entered in the room. Anyway, if you read all Genji could have SET THE ENVELOPE, DRAW THE MAGIC SIGN AND KILL THEM ! But this method X of "fake chain" is...strange...so Kanon as the killer is more likely possible. Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-06-04 at 13:56. |
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2010-06-04, 14:31 | Link #10802 | ||
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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(it was said by Lambda to counter Battler's idea that the three killed each other) Quote:
Which isn't really a new theory for the second twilight, but it's one of the more popular ones. Examining each person's alibi again: Kinzo: Dead Krauss: Identifiable corpse, and Battler clearly sees it. That means he's dead. Eva: The victim, and she didn't commit suicide after committing murder. Rudolf: Unidentifiable corpse, but his identity is guaranteed. That means he's dead. Rosa: Unidentifiable corpse, but her identity is guaranteed. That means she's dead. Jessica: With Battler in the parlor at the time. The only time she could have killed them was when Kanon was injured, and she was out of Battler's sight. But Genji locked the room so she would need Kanon's key to enter and kill them. And the victims must have faked their deaths to be killed at that time. So I would say she's innocent. George: With Battler in the parlor at the time. He was also with Battler until the very end. So I would say he's innocent. Battler: He's the detective, so he didn't kill them. Maria: With Battler in the parlor at the time. The only chance she could have killed them was after she was thrown out of the study. But Genji locked the room so she would need Kumasawa's key to enter and kill them. And the victims must have faked their deaths to be killed at that time. So I would say she's innocent. Natsuhi: With Battler in the parlor at the time. She was also with Battler until the very end. So I would say she's innocent, if EP5 is any indication. Hideyoshi: The victim, and he didn't commit suicide after committing murder. Kyrie: Unidentifiable corpse, but her identity is guaranteed. That means she's dead. Genji: He isn't a murderer. Nanjo: He isn't a murderer. Kumasawa: She isn't a murderer. Gohda: Unidentifiable corpse, but his identity is guaranteed. That means he's dead. Kanon: He was with Kumasawa at the time, but she could have lied, so it's possible he is the killer. Shannon: Battler never saw her corpse, even though it is identifiable. Basically she could have faked her death, escaped from the storehouse using the window and killed them. Jessica and Maria have very small windows of opportunity to kill them, but it makes things much more complicated. Shannon and Kanon as culprits make it much simpler, but there isn't enough evidence to prove which one of them did it. At least, I haven't been able to find it. |
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2010-06-04, 14:41 | Link #10803 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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...Well...Kanon is just the perfect murderer for EP1 But I don't find a motive for Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo death, George has the most important reason to kill them (by reasoning only them + Kanon could have kill Rva and Hideyoshi, and he think that Kanon is dead). So...Kanon and Shannon for culprit in EP1... Quote:
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2010-06-04, 14:50 | Link #10804 | ||
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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The two most likely people to have faked their deaths are once again Shannon and Kanon, but there actually isn't proof Eva and Hideyoshi are dead... though there still isn't a good motive for them. Quote:
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2010-06-04, 15:13 | Link #10805 |
<Congratulations>!!!!
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Belgium
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Euk, reading this thread is like reading a maths textbook all over again. No possible motives, just 'who did it' and that's it. X_X
Since I could not find any other place suitable for what I am going to say, I will post it here. I'd like to express my opinion on why there is a letter from 'Beatrice', why the plaque below the portrait of Beatrice exists. I believe it has to do with Kinzo's will. In the very beginning of EP1, Nanjo tries to persuade Kinzo to write a will. Kinzo is very much against that, as he finds his chlidren greedy and grandchildren unworthy. However, he later on seems to agree. (I think this scene really happened, but a year or so preceding the actual events of '86.) From here on, it's my educated speculation: Kinzo, knowing he only had a few months left, commissioned a painting of his beloved Beatrice and composed the riddle himself. The painting was to give an image of the witch of the island. Perhaps Kinzo knew about his children's financial problems, or could foresee them. I'm very much sure that Kinzo himself wrote and sealed the letters, storing them away until a pre-planned date or event. Kinzo then placed the following in his will - when he dies, during the next family conference, the following must be carried out: 1. Shannon will deliver the first letter bearing Kinzo's crest, to Maria under the guise of Beatrice. 2. Maria reads the letter to the family after dinner has finished, this letter will encourage the family members to put their heads together in order to find the gold. 3. If the family does not succeed, an explosion will occur after 2 days, taking everything of the Ushiromiya family as interest for Beatrice, as well as the gold. (I'm sure Kinzo would have wanted this, if there was no one fit to succeed him. He was a very proud man.) I'm sure that only Genji, Shannon and Kanon know about Kinzo's will. Hence their one-winged crest on their uniform. Nanjo does not show any signs of knowing anything about this will. What I don't get is how Kinzo would have foreseen the typhoon. And I'm sure that Kinzo, or whoever composed the letters, did not intend for any of the murders to happen. And of course, please remember this is all speculation.
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2010-06-04, 15:15 | Link #10806 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! # In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! # Kanon did not commit suicide * Nothing was able to KILL Kanon, but just wound him...therefore Kanon didn't die in the boiler room, and could have killed everyone...but...ah... Kanon revolted. He didn't want to be considered as furniture. He asked Shannon to fake her death to make a perfect alibi for the next crimes. He also asked Genji and menaced Nanjo and Kumasawa to make them do was he wanted. Krauss knew about that, and he is so stupid that he thought it was a good way to make Kinzo death hidden forever. Shannon, dress up as Beatrice, and gave the letter to Maria. Krauss stole the ring of the head on Kinzo's finger. Kanon and Genji killed the 4 in the dinning room and Gohda was killed because Kanon hated him (first scene with Kanon, Gohda seems pretty harsh with him). Shannon acted dead. Second twilight, Genji put the letter near the door, go and find Kanon in the kitchen. Kanon go with Kumasawa unlock the storehouse and free Shannon, Kumasawa is still menaced by Kanon. Genji writes the sign on the door, as he has the key to Kinzo's study it was easy to learn magic symbols. Kanon kills Eva and Hideyoshi, and the three do exactly was Kanon told them to do. Kanon fake his death. The three are about to say the truth to Maria, Shannon arrives and kill them, dressed as Beatrice. Then she/Kanon kills Natsuhi. Krauss in EP1 is strange and suspicious...but this theory make sense. The cousins were not killed because : Jessica : Obvious reason if Kanon is behind this. George : Same as above, but with Shannon. Or Kanon knew that George was close to Shannon so... Battler : Helped Kanon in the rose garden. Maria : She helped to make the illusion of the witch. "The difficulty is standard Shall we first take the easy road ?" I guess we actually took it. AHHHH ! KANON AND SHANNON WERE IN THE TEA PARTY !!! I forgot that only the survivors at 0:00 and them were here. Talking about the tea party, when Battler says : "Kanon, you were playacting!" SHANNON and Jessica immediately reacts. So yeah...can we claim that this theory is truth ? Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-06-04 at 15:51. |
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2010-06-04, 16:46 | Link #10807 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Well about Kanon and Shannon.
Kanon thinks that Gohda and Natsuhi are "bad people" for bullying Shannon, and Shannon may or may not agree. Genji and Kumasawa however are admired and respected by both of them. I can see Kanon killing Gohda and Natsuhi maybe, but Genji and Kumasawa is a stretch. Lambda seems to imply after she makes her reds that only some other person could've killed Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. She doesn't think Battler's blue about them all shooting each other works. So why would Kanon or Shannon kill people they respect? Unless they were pressured by some other person to do it?
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2010-06-04, 16:51 | Link #10808 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Because they were going to say the truth to Maria ? Those 3 were killed by other another person ? How did s/he get the stakes ? |
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2010-06-04, 17:00 | Link #10809 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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To be clear I'm saying that since there are obviously very few people in every episode that can be murderers most of the time they must have their own personal reasons to murder people. And those reasons must be influenced by a person or an idea to get to the point of murder.
Maybe, but we've thought that since the beginning. Beatrice has nothing the gain from it only the adults do. Quote:
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2010-06-05, 00:55 | Link #10810 |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Maybe we're wrong in assuming there is ever a detective in any of the games except when Erika is involved? I'm rereading EP5, and I can't shake the feeling that the narrator of all of the games isn't Battler... I have a feeling that the true narrator of all games is in fact the Game Master :/
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2010-06-05, 00:59 | Link #10811 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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"Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!" Maybe "you" wasn't referring to Battler at all! But I don't think you can get terribly far with that. Author Theory would, however, suggest that the writer - and thus the "reliable perspective" - is not actually inherent to Battler. The writing in ep1-4 simply chose to make Battler reliable, before perhaps realizing that he need not be (or perhaps should not be). But that doesn't get much traction yet. Ep7 may blow the lid off the whole Author Theory concept, or it may discard it as extraneous outright. |
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2010-06-05, 01:12 | Link #10812 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Battler talks about this in the ???? also. He asks himself if it's possible to solve a mystery written by someone who does not have an impartial perspective. There are only small pieces that might lead to an answer from what he says.
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2010-06-05, 02:07 | Link #10814 | |
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I don't doubt there's a person there. Was there a person actually there (on Rokkenjima-Prime)? Was it the person we believe it to be? Hard to say right now. There have been hints, but not many about who would have been there instead.
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2010-06-05, 02:54 | Link #10816 |
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Can we be entirely sure of that, though? After all, there's a character claiming to have written ep3-6 now. If that's true, the "narrator" of both may well be Beatrice/Lambda, but the narrative voice is deriving from this supposed mutual author. Of course, that assumes you actually buy her claim to being the in-world writer, which remains dubious indeed.
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2010-06-05, 03:03 | Link #10817 |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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In ep1, it seems only possible for Shannon or Kanon to be the killer. With most likely either Kumasawa or Genji as an accomplice, or maybe both.
Because for Eva and Hideyoshi's death, as was explained last page. Only Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, and Kanon could have commited the crime, unless we can come up with a way for the person who faked their death in the 1st twilight to escape from the shed. And we know that someone who should be dead is alive and they are the person who kills the three in the parlor and Natsuhi. Kanon's reaction when they see the letter bugs me by the way. It seems almost fantasy like... I need to reread ep1.. |
2010-06-05, 03:28 | Link #10818 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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2010-06-05, 07:30 | Link #10819 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In an author-theory-wise perspective the "detective" is nothing but a role embedded to a certain character in the story. It's more or less like saying "main character" in a mystery novel.
Basically the "detective" is the character in the story who needs to solve the mysteries and, therefore, is the only one who can move the plot to a true solution. Any other character is either totally clueless, an accomplice, the killer or one of the killers, or someone who knows everything but keep himself silent for various reasons. And even in the case a secondary character, who actively tries to solve the mystery, do manage to find something or the whole scheme, it usually doesn't bring a true advancement in the story. Most of the times such a character gets "silenced" by the killer before he can tell his discoveries to the world (but he might leave an important clue). So if this perspective is right, there's nothing wrong with Battler being the detective in EP1-4. narratively speaking there are very little reasons to doubt that. The same goes for Erika in EP5 (though EP6 is dubious...). As for the narrator, it has nothing to do with the "detective". In mystery novels the narrator can be an impersonal voice of the author, the detective himself, the "Watson" of the case or any other character. Sometimes you can even find the murderer as the narrator! So the fact that Battler isn't always the narrator of EP1-4 doesn't bring any point against the theory of him being the detective. This brings us to a dilemma: "Even acknowledging that the detective can't see fake scenes, if the narrator is someone else, wouldn't it then be possible for the narrator to tell us that the detective saw things that aren't real even if he didn't?" Technically I think this should be possible. However when the narrator is the detective himself (and most of the times Battler is the narrator in EP1-4) this shouldn't work.
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2010-06-05, 10:54 | Link #10820 |
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That seems about right, and is (unfortunately) the basis for several problematic points of contention. Those points are entirely valid though.
The interesting point about "what happens if the narrator isn't the detective and lies about what the detective sees?" is that it rarely actually applies. Almost all of the jumps to first-person narration for people other than Battler in ep1-4 have nothing to do with the person's present situation and are usually reflections on the person's past (such as Rosa and Eva's narration). There are, or at least appear to be, only two instances of non-detective first-person narration which could actually bear heavily on present events during the game, both of which I believe come in ep5: 1) Battler narrates the infamous parlor gathering scene when he is not the detective. 2) Natsuhi in the closet when Hideyoshi is murdered. Oddly, we're given no particularly valid reason not to trust both of these narrators. Battler has yet to show any motive for lying about the number of people on the island, and Natsuhi's sincerity of narration is backed by her red text about Shannon. Yet neither one is the detective, so what they see and say is theoretically entirely possible to falsify.
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