2011-12-10, 04:09 | Link #961 | |
Boo!
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I know, right? She even kicked him hard in the guts just because he was talking on the phone with Miu. WHAT GIVES? JUST TALKING ON THE PHONE, MAN!
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2011-12-10, 04:25 | Link #962 | |
Senior Member
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I want to briefly revisit the Shingo/Airi bath scene, as upon further thought, this is one area where I continue to disagree with Relentlessflame.
I disagree. If major protagonists partake in actions that almost no viewer would be willing to, I think that runs the risk of severely undermining viewer suspension of disbelief, which is obviously not good for the show. Hence it is relevant to the show, imo. Quote:
Given Shingo's overall characterization, I don't think that the Shingo/Airi bathing scene was reasonable at all, unless both sides had romantic feelings for one another. In other words, I think that this anime, as it currently stands, would have been better off without that scene. It's very understandable how that scene would lead people to suspect a Shingo/Airi romance end, and even in retrospect, this scene sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
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2011-12-10, 09:17 | Link #964 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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The only reason why they put in that scene is probably for -extra fanservice: every girl besides Sana had one, unless you include Sana's picture with the Shingo kitten -to make the end heroine less clear. Even the people who read the VN could not make out who the end heroine was untill episode 8. -probably a nod for the people who read VN when there was such a scene, but the circumstances and subject that they were talking about were completely different in the VN though I don't think that scene was necessary, but it had no impact for the plot in my opinion. If the next day Airi and Shingo were acting flustered around everyone, then that scene had effected the both of them but as i mentioned before they acted like nothing has happened. edit: i am also looking forward to next week Nuko radio with Mayumi Yoshida as the guest. Last edited by hyl; 2011-12-10 at 09:42. Reason: typo |
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2011-12-10, 09:53 | Link #965 | |
Carpe Diem
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ||At the edge of finality.||
Age: 34
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2011-12-10, 12:17 | Link #968 |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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I certainly had the stock reaction to that bath scene, and maybe even the "desired" reaction if Relentless is right and it was partially there to throw the audience off the scent. But I can't help but wonder if there's a cultural aspect to some of the fan reaction to this.
I'm put in mind of another anime bath scene that was widely misinterpreted by fans, this one from Soredemo. Hotori and her brother Takeru (who's about 11) take a bath together after sneaking out to take a midnight stroll on a cold night. I remember a flood of posts from folks who were offended and thought it was a brocon, shotacon, etc. moment - when of course, it's perfectly natural in Japan for siblings to bathe together even at that age. Now obviously the two situations aren't completely analogous, but I do think it's relevant that bathing has very different connotations in Japan than it does in the West, with roots leading right back to Shinto. In fact, I think you could even make a case that what the bathing scene ends up showing is that Shingo and Airi have grown increasingly comfortable in each other's presence, almost like "siblings" - and that there isn't much sexual tension.
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2011-12-10, 12:36 | Link #969 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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The reason, suggested by the show, is that he thought it was necessary. Both were drenched by the rain and believed they were at risk of catching a cold unless they each got into a bath. Airi was not willing to let Shingo go without getting into the bath first. Shingo didn't consider it acceptable that he get in first before her, since then she could get sick. Hence they would both get in. Airi turned out the lights to reduce the risk of embarrassment. It was a logical compromise with no romantic intentions from Shingo's part. Of course, he was still embarrassed when Airi got in (she was naked after all), but the conversation that ensued and their attitude towards each afterwards suggest it had no deep meaning. The previous times with Sakuno and again with Sakuno and Ange were unnecessary, unexpected, and in full light. He was embarrassed and considered their actions inappropriate (they were just trying to tease him/see him naked). Of course, getting into a bath together is a sign of trust, and that Shingo and Airi trusted each other by that point is certain. But it's also a case of "desperate times call for desperate measures", whether you believe the situation was really that "desperate" or not. (Anime logic: soaking wet + no bath = certain illness) Also, this: Quote:
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2011-12-10, 13:31 | Link #970 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I see that many people don't understand this scene. Well, I don't surprise because it wasn't emphasize enough in anime. Explanation: You know that one of reasons that Shingo like Miu is her kind/caring personality right? You can see that he have been praising her about them for many eps. Now what Miu said in club room when they were alone (about when she first met Pannya and her plan to return Pannya back to the wild) was heavily emphasized Miu's kindness/care (In Shingo POV). That is why he can't hold his feeling anymore and decide to confess. .................................................. .............................................. .................................................. .............................................. Oh yeah, It seems no one post these two scanlatons before. Sad Sana (only click after watched ep.10), someone please tranlate the text on it http://i.imgur.com/vjhGF.jpg ็Happy Sana http://i.imgur.com/s26z3.jpg Your choice!
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Last edited by Marina2; 2011-12-10 at 13:46. Reason: add more comments |
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2011-12-10, 13:48 | Link #971 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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As relentless already pointed out, the Ange/Sakuno scene is of completely different nature, to compare them means ignoring the context. If you ignore the context, it's no surprise you would misinterpret Shingo's character. Don't think only about the characters and how they behaved in the respective events, but why they behaved the way they did. Ange and Sakuno wanted to get in there just because, and it came out of the blue. Airi's was a planned event by both parties, a compromise rationalized as necessity out of concern for their mutual health, bolstered by a hefty dose of stubbornness. Romantic implications don't even figure there. While it easily could have been used in such context indeed, that simply didn't end up being the case, neither prior or post the event itself. That was exactly the take-away one was supposed to derive from that scene, especially in the light of events that followed. It was exactly the realization Airi took from the scene. And really, whether you could see yourself bathing with a close female without having romantic feelings for her isn't terribly relevant for Mashifoni. While it probably goes a long way towards being able to emphasize with the scene, that's not the lens it should be analyzed through. We are talking about Shingo here, not you (Though if we are on the subject, if I imagine myself being ~17 again, and a situation cropped up where a beautiful female friend is about to enter the bath with me out of health concerns, you bet my teenage mind wouldn't need a whole lot of prior romantic inclinations to accept the offer, and probably of motives far less pure than health concerns, even if it only meant getting an eyeful or two ), so the important part to understand here is Shingo's character and what prompts him to act the way he does. Those reasons might be alien to you, as they are alien to me (I'm honestly nowhere near as self-sacrificing as Shingo), but that doesn't render them invalid. It's important to realize that not everyone thinks the same, and equally important to realize that different ways of thinking aren't less valid because of it. Take me, you and Shingo. You apparently can't think of entering a bath with a female without romantic implications, health or no health on the line. At the age our characters operate at, I would have been gleeful at the opportunity. Bless the rain and potential health issues for giving me the chance to do so! The concept of both absolutely needing romantic feelings to do so boggles me, but I respect you having said opinion. And Shingo reacts in another way entirely, putting the health concerns he has for Airi as first on the line. Three different ways of thinking, but is any less valid or possible to have for being so ? Obviously not. Understandably the further someone else is from the line of your own reasoning, the more your ability to emphasize with them suffers (I think both of us serve as a good example here ), but that doesn't lessen the possibility of them acting in such a way (I mean, you clearly have a stance on the issue that I can't agree with nor imagine myself having, but that evidently hasn't stopped you from being here and having said position ). You aren't supposed to imagine Shingo as an extension of yourself and judge his actions in light of how you would have acted in such a situation. You simply get to follow his actions from afar, and in order to understand why he acts in certain ways you have to understand what makes him tick. Irregardless of whether you agree with his actions or not, that's not what character analysis is about. Obviously bathing together means different things to you and Shingo, and the occurrence of said event has different prerequisites depending on each line of thought. But we are talking about Shingo here, so his actions should be judged in light of his own established personality traits and tendencies, not anyone's else, only that way can you understand what makes him tick and act the way he does. Given the emotional sentiment being placed on the strict fact they happened to share a bath, circumstances notwithstanding, I can't help but feel there is some mixing up of the two going on here.
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2011-12-10, 14:21 | Link #972 |
True Harem End or BUST
Join Date: Oct 2010
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I have a hard time understanding though why so many felt that bath scene was suppose to mean that much in the first place. Looking at it from a story telling point of view, maybe I could see why someone would jump to conclusions....but see, that's the problem. Once again people are trying yo use their common knowledge of past cliche tools to "crack" the ending before it even happened.
You have to look at it from Shingo's prospective. All he did was get in the bath (which he really didn't care for taking in the first place), and noticed a naked Airi get in with him, being pretty shocked. I don't see how this is suppose to relate to "official couple". Yea Airi liked him at this point, but there was still no indication that Shingo saw her in that light, and if anything, was going more so "WTF is she doing?". But I do commend him for going through with it as calm and mature as possible.
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2011-12-10, 15:45 | Link #975 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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the whole pannya explanation makes it more understandable for me. thanks for pointing that out
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2011-12-10, 16:13 | Link #976 | ||||
Dango Daikaizoku
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southern California
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I feel like that's a good description of Airi. Quote:
Whereas this would be a better description of Sana.
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2011-12-10, 16:54 | Link #977 |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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There is one problem when calling Airi an actual tsundere, Airi didn't start tsun tsun towards Shingo. When they first encountered, she was nice and polite to him.
If their next encounter would not have been at Yujio as students, then i am sure that she would never acted that way towards Shingo to begin with. |
2011-12-10, 17:05 | Link #978 | |
Carpe Diem
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ||At the edge of finality.||
Age: 34
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I'm just humoring my nature by playing some devil's advocate. My stance on this issue is neutrality in general as my overall criticisms are aimed at other parts/decisions made when telling the story, though this particular discussion does tie into part of my criticism but is certainly not limited to only it.
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So, by using such "throw off" methods of obfuscating your plot's aim, you put yourself between a rock and a hard place for many people. It just isn't a necessary scene, for what it is worth, and could have been handled any number of other ways. You ask why do people jump to conclusions, I ask why was the scene *built* such that people could jump to conclusions? (Because, as reactions show, people have and continue to jump to conclusions on the smallest of things. Look at how Ange was handled, hardly anyone, if anyone at all, jumped to conclusions on that because it was presented and concluded fairly quickly and fully, even if it was sort of out of left field when it came up.) The issue that is raised then is that we'd have known where the plot was going but I'm still left asking why this would be a bad thing. Why must the plot be hidden behind vague allusions to other plots, this isn't a mystery novel or story. The scene is vague, the discussion about the scene when the episode aired shows this and the many interpretations available to just a few minutes of an episode, all depending on a number of factors: expectations, analysis, depth of knowledge, and so on.
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2011-12-10, 17:24 | Link #979 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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At the end of the day, I guess I'd say that I'd prefer for people to judge Airi as a complete character in her own right, and not just try to squeeze all her personality into a category or box. I think she's more complicated than any one label can fully convey.
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2011-12-10, 18:32 | Link #980 |
Dango Daikaizoku
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southern California
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@relentlessflame
I agree that there is more nuance to Airi's character than a single label/category can convey. I just personally find it useful to have a broad definition of tsundere. To me, any character that is at one point openly hostile and then later becomes lovestruck is, at least on some level, a tsundere. After that you can talk about classic vs modern, weak vs strong, physically abusive vs verball abusive etc etc. Obviously not all tsunderes are created equal characters like Airi and Sana can be very different while both being tsunderes. I guess at the end of the day I'd say that if you have to put Airi in a category it's "classic tsundere" and you can either, like me, choose to do that or, like you, choose not to do that but we both acknowledge that the label is not sufficient to completely define what makes Airi Airi.
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eroge, romance, seinen |
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