Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[bladeofdarkness]

if nothing else
it would make the idea behind lelouch's plan more logical and realistic
the laughable idea that lelouch could eliminate the worlds hate by having it die with him and improving the world mearly by doing that
could be more productively replaced with an admission that while lelouch could not make the world a better place through massive bloodshed and deception
he could use those methods to stop the one who would seek to inslave it and make it WORSE
thus clearing the way for those people who he believed WOULD be able to make it a better place (he did give shnizel that long speech on how he believes in people)
sorta like simon from TTGL, only darker

[Xander]

I think it's a matter of presentation and execution rather than one of conceptualization.

In other words, I don't have a problem with the idea, but with how rushed it was presented and dealt with during the show. Why? Because this is fiction and realism isn't what I'm looking for in anime, much less in Code Geass.

What the plan really needed was to be better sold, which could have been accomplished with more exposition, better characterization and simply more time in general, but the concept itself doesn't seem particularly out of line considering everything else in the show thus far.

Even as it is, the ending, contrary to what perceptions might imply, consciously leaves the door open to an interpretation similar to the one you consider to be currently absent. There's really plenty of room for debate.

I also have my own issues with TTGL's ending too, even as great as it is to be honest, but that would be off-topic.

[bladeofdarkness]

the problem is that the one interpretation that i seek is lacking
the interptration that says lelouch did what he did to deal with SNHIZEL specifically, and not as part of his own "masterplan" for world peace
as it stands, stopping shnizel is mearly one of the things that lelouch's plan would require
the other parts are conquering the world and then becoming the most hate person in it

the interpration i want for there to have, and the show doesnt support, is that the later two are mearly a result of the overall goal of beating snhizel
and that if shnizel did NOT plan to do what he did, lelouch wouldnt have done Z-R at all
in other words, the interpration i want is one that says lelouch did Z-R because he had NOT OTHER CHOICE
not because he chose to do it out of pride or because he wanted to atone

[Xander]

Ah, but if you removed Schneizel from the equation then Lelouch's existing plan would have also been different, or at least there's a possibility that he wouldn't have reached the exact same conclusion.

The show doesn't completely spell it out, but I do think Schneizel's expected interference was one of the factors that shaped the plan's final form, even if he wasn't the main objective, since after all having an opponent like him gave the Black Knights a chance, at least on paper, to defeat Lelouch's forces and his own alternative plan was still a threat to the world from the protagonist's POV. Having all those FLEIJAs around isn't helpful either.

In other words, I still don't think the show eliminates that possibility entirely, it's just been presented sloppily.

[bladeofdarkness]

here is the thing
i dont want Schneizel to be an EFFECT on lelouch's plan
i want that Schneizel's absence would mean that lelouch HAS no plan at all
or at least, that he would never carry it out

i want lelouch's Z-R plan, and all the crap he does in order to accomplish it, to be absolutely necessary in order to save the world from Schneizel's plan
and that there is no other way BUT to do it like he did
i DONT want it to be the path that lelouch CHOSE to take, rather then taking simpler ways to deal with that problem because of pride or a desire to atone

there ARE ways to make this point stand, and have lelouch fighting both Schneizel and the OOBK at the same time in the final arc
they could make the claim that attacking the OOBK makes them potential allies for Schneizel (thus sparing them from the flejia)
they could make the claim that it would be impossible to join forces with the UFN against Schneizel because Schneizel would only have to imply that he would use the damocles on japan and the OOBK would surrender at once
they could have made the claim that the only one who can defeat Schneizel would have to be a monster who cares nothing about human lives, and hence, someone who the OOBK would never ever join
they COULD have made those points
but they didnt

instead they made it seem that lelouch did what he did by CHOICE
as part of his own master plan that stands independently from Schneizel's
instead of playing lelouch as a " tragic hero" who is forced to act like a monster against his will because its the only way to defeat a greater evil
they turned him into Ozymandias

[morbosfist]

He did make his plan because of Schneizel. They're pretty clear about that with the Emperor's last line. Plus Lelouch is keeping track of Schneizel the entire time.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He did make his plan because of Schneizel. They're pretty clear about that with the Emperor's last line. Plus Lelouch is keeping track of Schneizel the entire time.

I do think Lelouch shaped the plan's current form because of Schneizel, he's an important factor, but I'd have to say that he's not the only one involved in making Lelouch reach that conclusion.

Reasons that go beyond Schneizel were also mentioned, which would still have to be considered.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

here is the thing
i dont want Schneizel to be an EFFECT on lelouch's plan
i want that Schneizel's absence would mean that lelouch HAS no plan at all
or at least, that he would never carry it out

In that case...while the show leaves that possibility open, technically, it's not likely. Not much I can add to that.

A large part of what lies behind the different interpretations, beyond the show itself, is something that depends purely on personal expectations and preferences. All of us have different likes and dislikes that will be reflected on our criticism and praise for any particular series.

I certainly am willing to accept that the alternative you're proposing is plausible, by all means, but perhaps I'll never be as much of a dedicated proponent because I'm simply not that bothered by the actual state of things and can more or less understand how and why it has come to pass. That's almost all I can say at this point.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He did make his plan because of Schneizel. They're pretty clear about that with the Emperor's last line. Plus Lelouch is keeping track of Schneizel the entire time.

but Z-R isnt ABOUT stopping Schneizel
stopping Schneizel is a step ON THE WAY to Z-R

if they made Z-R about stopping Schneizel, and made it clear that this is completely about that (and that there is no other way)
lelouch would have came out more heroic (and tragic)
but since they made it clear that lelouch has a BIGGER plan then just stopping Schneizel
they made it into two villains fighting between themselves with each one trying to make his own xanatos gambit take place
its like watching that main bad guy from GSD fighting against Ozymandias

and just to hammer home the point
lelouch beats Schneizel a FULL EPISODE BEFORE THE END
and there is still a final battle and a final confrontation that has nothing at all to do with Schneizel

@Xander
if you really do get what i'm trying to say, then we dont really have anything to argue about
you and i can choose to interpret it as you wish
i'm just pissed that the one i feel would best serve the general plot is not a valid one

[morbosfist]

It's not like he would have done the same thing in the absence of any threat whatsoever.

[bladeofdarkness]

its implied that he would have
he wanted to atone, wipe euphie from people's minds, and bring about an end to the war
lelouch's "a man who destroys and creates worlds" mantra is a good indication of his ego, and his refusal to view himself as anything but that
and i dont remember where, but somewhere i heard it said that the purpose of Z-R was for him and suzaku to atone for their PAST sins (a special mention was placed on the murders of their fathers)

in other words, Z-R (lelouch taking over the world and becoming a symbol of hate) was a goal in itself from the start

[morbosfist]

He wouldn't have taken over the entire world just to atone. He did it because Schneizel would have done the same and been far less discriminate about it. Even though Schneizel was a step on the path, he was the first step, the reason Lelouch went to the effort he did. If Schneizel and the many FLEIJAs were never a concern, he would not have done what he did.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He wouldn't have taken over the entire world just to atone. He did it because Schneizel would have done the same and been far less discriminate about it. Even though Schneizel was a step on the path, he was the first step, the reason Lelouch went to the effort he did. If Schneizel and the many FLEIJAs were never a concern, he would not have done what he did.

Your forgetting the part where Schneizel admitted he was never going to use FLEIJAs to kill that many people. He just wanted to scare people into world peace.

Lelouch knew this and did Zero Requiem anyway

Why?

Lelouch wanted to atone for his past sins, and to atone for the murder of his father. Lelouch felt that since he wanted to live with Nunnaly that he needed to die to make everything better.

Here's a translation of parts of the guide book, it makes clear that Zero Requiem is just Lelouch atoning for his sins the stupidest way possible.
http://community.livejournal.com/cod...s/1178870.html

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Your forgetting the part where Schneizel admitted he was never going to use FLEIJAs to kill that many people. He just wanted to scare people into world peace.

Lelouch knew this and did Zero Requiem anyway

Why?

Lelouch wanted to atone for his past sins, and to atone for the murder of his father. Lelouch felt that since he wanted to live with Nunnaly that he needed to die to make everything better.

When did he admit that he wasn't going to kill people? I must have missed that part, because I distinctly remember the whole "blow up every world capital and kill hundreds of millions of people" thing.

He didn't take over the world solely to atone. There were other objectives in mind.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

When did he admit that he wasn't going to kill people? I must have missed that part, because I distinctly remember the whole "blow up every world capital and kill hundreds of millions of people" thing.

He didn't take over the world solely to atone. There were other objectives in mind.

Right before Lelouch geasses him Schneizel admits that he never intended to use Damocles, and Lelouch knew this, and makes some stupid crap about how he searches for the future while Schneizel wants to keep the status quo.

I found the clip on Adult Swim's website under "You shall serve Zero" but I can't get the URL

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Right before Lelouch geasses him Schneizel admits that he never intended to use Damocles, and Lelouch knew this, and makes some stupid crap about how he searches for the future while Schneizel wants to keep the status quo.

I found the clip on Adult Swim's website under "You shall serve Zero" but I can't get the URL

Here you go.

But that is not him admitting that he was never going to use it at all. Schneizel is making the distinction between himself taking over for his own gain as opposed to doing it as a way to create peace. He was still intending to nuke the world, he just rationalizes it as something that must be done out of necessity rather than personal ambition.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Here you go.

But that is not him admitting that he was never going to use it at all. Schneizel is making the distinction between himself taking over for his own gain as opposed to doing it as a way to create peace. He was still intending to nuke the world, he just rationalizes it as something that must be done out of necessity rather than personal ambition.

But why couldn't either try diplomacy, Nuking and blowing up a volcano should be the last option not the first option.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

But why couldn't either try diplomacy, Nuking and blowing up a volcano should be the last option not the first option.

For you or me, maybe, but these people are some of the finest hams in the world. Subtlety is not their language. To be more specific, Schneizel had no political clout (not that he couldn't have taken it in the month Charles was absent from the throne), and Lelouch had to deal with Schneizel's nuke-happy attitude.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

For you or me, maybe, but these people are some of the finest hams in the world. Subtlety is not their language. To be more specific, Schneizel had no political clout (not that he couldn't have taken it in the month Charles was absent from the throne), and Lelouch had to deal with Schneizel's nuke-happy attitude.

So why the hell are these idiots qualified for positions of leadership? They're not. Anyone whose first option is war isn't fit to be a leader.

Honestly when I look at this series I think of one thing.

Taniguchi and Okouchi must have failed history. I mean Lelouch's plan is basically what happened in the Europe front of World War II. The greatest evil the world has ever known shows up and unites Russia, Britain, and America to defend themselves, and as soon as it became obvious Hitler was going to lose the alliance falls apart.

The entire last battle is basically Western civilization vs Asian civilization which was one of the beliefs that caused the Pacific War.

[bladeofdarkness]

there are perfectly legitimate and logical reasons for lelouch having to do things the way he did
there are perfectly good reasons for attacking the UFN first (i stated some in the last few posts)
there are perfectly good explanation for lelouch using such ruthless tactics
but none of them get mentioned at all
instead the impression given is that lelouch does his plan for the same reason Schneizel does his
both believe they know best what's good for the world, and both are willing to sacrifice however lives they deem fit to do it

thats my problem with the whole concept behind the last arc
that it comes off as two villains clashing rather then a hero vs a villain
the man who sets out to "destroy and recreate the world" is far less heroic then the one who seeks to save it
at the very least, making the plan specifically about stopping Schneizel would allow them to remove that disgusting scene in the garden between lelouch and suzaku when he nonchalantely states that he would conquer the world, and spill rivers of blood to erase euphie's memory.

[Charred Knight]

The whole series is muddle

Take for example the whole crap with mask. They talk about it a bunch but nothing comes out of it. They go on about how everyone wears a mask, but Lelouch never stops lyingl, and pretending his someone his not.

Charles goes on about how horrible lies are, but Lelouch lies and maniplulates people, and we are told how great the world is now due to that.