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Lord Raiden · 2006-09-20, 15:28

I'm surprised nobody posted this, but apparently the guys who created all the super computers that beat the best of the human chess players are bored with that game and have moved on to a new game. Go. Yup, Go. Here is an article talking about what they're planning on doing and what's involved. Should be interesting to see how this does and how well they perform against regular Go players and masters.

Oddly, once they beat everyone at Go, then what will they have next to beat us at?

Illuyankas · 2006-09-20, 23:01

Tiddlywinks.

Xellos-_^ · 2006-09-20, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Raiden

I'm surprised nobody posted this, but apparently the guys who created all the super computers that beat the best of the human chess players are bored with that game and have moved on to a new game. Go. Yup, Go. Here is an article talking about what they're planning on doing and what's involved. Should be interesting to see how this does and how well they perform against regular Go players and masters.

Oddly, once they beat everyone at Go, then what will they have next to beat us at?

Xiangqi/Shogi, which is like a Asian verison of chess.

Medalist · 2006-09-21, 07:10

Who beat me at GO ? noooooo

mit7059 · 2006-09-21, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Xiangqi/Shogi, which is like a Asian verison of chess.

That would be easier than Go, which is much deeper and takes much more strategy and skill.
My guess would be either American Football or Counter-Strike,
"It's third and 5 should we go a pass or a run, or a trick play?"

"Should we rush again? We won with that last round but won't they be execting that? Or should we camp? Or will they expect that we expect that they expect us to rush again? Then we should rush..."

Lord Raiden · 2006-09-23, 17:39

Well, they're currently starting out with a process of elimination technique, which I feel won't stand up against good quality GO players. However, what they learn from that may just push them to a whole new level and help them better learn how to attack the game with a formula that wins. I admit I'd hate to see the worlds best Go player get stomped by a machine, but seriously, what will be gained in the world of computer AI will be well worth someone getting their pride ground thuroughly into the floor.

Supergrunch · 2006-09-23, 17:47

I think it would be far harder to program a computer to play go effectively than to play chess effectively.

Quarkboy · 2006-09-23, 23:02

If they manage to make something that can tackle 1 dan players, I'd be surprised.

Go is in a totally different league than chess: Consider the branching ratios.

In chess, at the beginning (with the most # of pieces on the board) you have 20 possible moves. In go, you have 361.

Each step multiplies that number, so as an approximation, go has 361^180=2.2*10^(460) total number of moves in the game tree (for one player)
(about a google to the forth power).

and chess has 20^50= 10^65 (chess games average about 50 moves max)

That's nearly 4 google times less total number of moves you have to search.

I.e, Go is in a totally different league.

Supergrunch · 2006-09-24, 05:26

Has anyone seen the current Go playing programs available? I don't think anyone's managed o make anything better than 10 kyu. I don't know how many stones handicap a 10 kyu would have against a 9p, but it would be a hell of a lot.

Quarkboy · 2006-09-24, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supergrunch

Has anyone seen the current Go playing programs available? I don't think anyone's managed o make anything better than 10 kyu. I don't know how many stones handicap a 10 kyu would have against a 9p, but it would be a hell of a lot.

Yes, the best commerically available program is "Many Faces of Go" I think, and it can play at 10 Kyu or so (bots on the online go sites running it vary around 10-12 kyu).

A 9p versus a 10kyu is basically unfair at any handicap. The general rule is 1 stone per level difference, so that'd be a 19 stone handicap

.

Supergrunch · 2006-09-24, 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

A 9p versus a 10kyu is basically unfair at any handicap. The general rule is 1 stone per level difference, so that'd be a 19 stone handicap

.

Surely the handicap would be more than that, given that the amateur dan ranks come before the professional dan...

I make it a 25 stone handicap...

Quarkboy · 2006-09-24, 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supergrunch

Surely the handicap would be more than that, given that the amateur dan ranks come before the professional dan...

I make it a 25 stone handicap...

Oh yes, right... that's what you meant by 9p. Unfair at any case

.

Jinto · 2006-09-24, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

If they manage to make something that can tackle 1 dan players, I'd be surprised.

Go is in a totally different league than chess: Consider the branching ratios.

In chess, at the beginning (with the most # of pieces on the board) you have 20 possible moves. In go, you have 361.

Each step multiplies that number, so as an approximation, go has 361^180=2.2*10^(460) total number of moves in the game tree (for one player)
(about a google to the forth power).

and chess has 20^50= 10^65 (chess games average about 50 moves max)

That's nearly 4 google times less total number of moves you have to search.

I.e, Go is in a totally different league.

To play a game clever, you do not necessarily need to know all the possible moves in the game. I doubt a human being is playing this way. Its not always about bruteforce power, infact I wish for some software piece that is cleverly written, relying on non-deterministic, semidecidable algorithms. So it doesn't have a 100% chance of winning, but enough power to be a strong opponent.
Bruteforce power is so inelegant

Lord Raiden · 2006-09-24, 09:03

Sheesh, I don't know how you guys play the computer with a 10kyu advantage. I get my *** kicked regularly even with a 25 stone advantage. Then again I've never really picked up on Go yet either.

Supergrunch · 2006-09-24, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Raiden

Sheesh, I don't know how you guys play the computer with a 10kyu advantage. I get my *** kicked regularly even with a 25 stone advantage. Then again I've never really picked up on Go yet either.

I don't have a 10 kyu advantage... I was just pointing out that some people do. In fact, I'm about 20 kyu (so pretty crap).

Quarkboy · 2006-09-24, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

To play a game clever, you do not necessarily need to know all the possible moves in the game. I doubt a human being is playing this way. Its not always about bruteforce power, infact I wish for some software piece that is cleverly written, relying on non-deterministic, semidecidable algorithms. So it doesn't have a 100% chance of winning, but enough power to be a strong opponent.
Bruteforce power is so inelegant

But, that's EXACTLY the basic method that Deep Blue used to (pretty much) beat Kasparov. Sure, there was some "knowledge" in the algorithm, but the basis was a good 'ole (pruned) DFS (Depth first search). My point was that for Go, such a brute force method is completely impossible.

Supergrunch · 2006-09-24, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

But, that's EXACTLY the basic method that Deep Blue used to (pretty much) beat Kasparov. Sure, there was some "knowledge" in the algorithm, but the basis was a good 'ole (pruned) DFS (Depth first search). My point was that for Go, such a brute force method is completely impossible.

I agree, however it would be more possible the smaller the board.

Quarkboy · 2006-09-24, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supergrunch

I agree, however it would be more possible the smaller the board.

Indeed. I think most computer go tournaments are still played on 9 x 9 boards

.

On a 9x9 board, I can play Many faces of Go to a draw with no handicap on the highest level. Not sure if that's 'cause I suck or if that's because MFoG is pretty decent on a 9x9 board.

Supergrunch · 2006-09-24, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Indeed. I think most computer go tournaments are still played on 9 x 9 boards

.

On a 9x9 board, I can play Many faces of Go to a draw with no handicap on the highest level. Not sure if that's 'cause I suck or if that's because MFoG is pretty decent on a 9x9 board.

What rank are you supposed to be?

Lord Raiden · 2006-09-24, 19:18

Quote:

My point was that for Go, such a brute force method is completely impossible.

Oh, I agree. My point is that while the old methods won't work, it will however spawn newer methods for the computers to use by providing the programmers with a much tougher challenge.

2006-09-20, 15:28	Link #1
Lord Raiden Uber Coffee for da win! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Middle of insanity	AI takes on the game of Go I'm surprised nobody posted this, but apparently the guys who created all the super computers that beat the best of the human chess players are bored with that game and have moved on to a new game. Go. Yup, Go. Here is an article talking about what they're planning on doing and what's involved. Should be interesting to see how this does and how well they perform against regular Go players and masters. Oddly, once they beat everyone at Go, then what will they have next to beat us at?

2006-09-23, 23:02	Link #8
Quarkboy Translator, Producer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 44	If they manage to make something that can tackle 1 dan players, I'd be surprised. Go is in a totally different league than chess: Consider the branching ratios. In chess, at the beginning (with the most # of pieces on the board) you have 20 possible moves. In go, you have 361. Each step multiplies that number, so as an approximation, go has 361^180=2.210^(460) total number of moves in the game tree (for one player) (about a google to the forth power). and chess has 20^50= 10^65 (chess games average about 50 moves max) That's nearly 4 google times less total number of moves you have to search. I.e, Go is in a totally different league. __________________ Read Light Novels in English at J-Novel Club!* Translator, Producer, Japan Media Export Expert Founder and Owner of J-Novel Club Sam Pinansky

2006-09-20, 23:01	Link #2
Illuyankas I need another drink. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Beer. Boobs. Wait... boobs again.	Tiddlywinks.

2006-09-21, 07:10	Link #4
Medalist Infie Fansubber Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas	Who beat me at GO ? noooooo

2006-09-23, 17:39	Link #6
Lord Raiden Uber Coffee for da win! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Middle of insanity	Well, they're currently starting out with a process of elimination technique, which I feel won't stand up against good quality GO players. However, what they learn from that may just push them to a whole new level and help them better learn how to attack the game with a formula that wins. I admit I'd hate to see the worlds best Go player get stomped by a machine, but seriously, what will be gained in the world of computer AI will be well worth someone getting their pride ground thuroughly into the floor.

2006-09-23, 17:47	Link #7
Supergrunch Tegenaria gigantea Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Near London Age: 34	I think it would be far harder to program a computer to play go effectively than to play chess effectively.

2006-09-24, 05:26	Link #9
Supergrunch Tegenaria gigantea Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Near London Age: 34	Has anyone seen the current Go playing programs available? I don't think anyone's managed o make anything better than 10 kyu. I don't know how many stones handicap a 10 kyu would have against a 9p, but it would be a hell of a lot.

2006-09-24, 09:03	Link #14
Lord Raiden Uber Coffee for da win! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Middle of insanity	Sheesh, I don't know how you guys play the computer with a 10kyu advantage. I get my *** kicked regularly even with a 25 stone advantage. Then again I've never really picked up on Go yet either.