2010-10-27, 16:06 | Link #2061 | |
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You are going off pure hypothesis. I am going off what was actually presented to us in the series. The degree of probability is highly in my favour. I never declared what I said as the one absolute truth ( at least the parts which were not shown directly in the series to be so ), but I got plenty of evidence to back those ideas up. Saying that lack of information trumps the actual information is not scientific method for making an analysis.
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2010-10-27, 16:09 | Link #2062 | ||
Alto x Ranka :)
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I also disagree with what you seem to call Ranka's "underlying" motivations otherwise I believe she would have just left without notifying Alto at all. Ranka's plan was a direct result of finding out what Ai-kun was along with putting pieces of her past together.
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2010-10-27, 16:21 | Link #2063 |
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The problem with Ranka isn't the reason for her decision, it's that the series gives us no insight into what her feelings and thoughts are about Frontier or anything else while she's carrying them out. It doesn't matter if her decision was selfish or noble, because it wasn't conveyed properly either way.
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2010-10-27, 16:23 | Link #2064 | |||
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Now, it is of course quite okay to say that this possibility simply didn't occur to Ranka. Quote:
And for the "fleeing from having to sing for Frontier" motivation, she herself said that she couldn't do it anymore.
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2010-10-27, 16:25 | Link #2065 | ||
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Do you at least agree that if she knew the Vajra were ONLY after her, then leaving the fleet is not irresponsible? Quote:
Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-10-28 at 22:26. Reason: The "EDIT" button is your friend... |
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2010-10-27, 16:35 | Link #2066 | |
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Well, you got to present evidence to make a counterclaim. Just going off "there was no evidence for my case, but your evidence is not 100% complete" isn't good enough.
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It would still have resulted in catastrophe. But she'd have killed all those people with a clean heart.
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2010-10-27, 16:37 | Link #2067 | |
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Even if Ranka's motivation was pure as the driven snow, I don't think it would stop me from being disappointed in how her character ended up and the lack of empathy she displayed to her home and loved ones as shown by the narrative itself. Pure motivations only matter when the characters are torn because of them. Making Ranka a martyr isn't going to change anyone's opinion of her.
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2010-10-27, 16:39 | Link #2068 | ||
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Proof?
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At the VERY least, I think I've put an end to the "Oh, she didn't want to save the fleet, she just wanted to take Ai-kun back" nonsense. Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-10-28 at 22:26. Reason: The "EDIT" button is your friend... |
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2010-10-27, 16:43 | Link #2069 | |
Alto x Ranka :)
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Well some of us have different views of Ranka's character. I wouldn't necessarily say she's a martyr, I'd rather say she's idealistic.
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2010-10-27, 16:45 | Link #2070 | |
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Where's yours? You are very good at demanding proof, but not very good at providing it. Do some work, too.
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Bravo, you slayed a dead dragon. Who was claiming that as her sole motive in the last year or so?
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2010-10-27, 16:53 | Link #2071 |
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Ranka was always a bit of a idealist, a contrast to Sheryl's more practical sense, but neither is really presented as being better or worse, but simply aspects of life. Kind of like how the original Macross examined war and peace.
She was in a tough spot, and I wish we had been exposed to more of what she was thinking when she did that. I get the feeling there was more to it than just getting Ai-kun home. Personally I always assumed Ranka wanted to understand the Vajra better, that she hoped that by following Ai-kun home she could learn more about the Vajra and maybe even come up with a means to communicate and mediate a peace, convince the Vajra that Frontier wasn't all bad and find something to convince Frontier that the Vajra could be reasoned with. She had Ai-kun and Ai-kun showed her that they could communicate with the Vajra to some degree. I mean she gives a whole exposition in the finale explaining that the Vajra didn't understand them anymore than they understood the Vajra, and that the whole reason for their fighting was because of that, and because they had no means of communication. She probably had that figured out from her journey. Considering next the sheer level of hatred on Frontier at that time against the Vajra and you get an atmosphere where you can't reason with the one side. Even Alto was just going to shoot Ai-kun, but no one but Ranka had any means of understanding the Vajra in even the most remote sense, so I can't really blame either Ranka or Alto. Plus there was no way to be sure that the communication channel that let Ranka influence the Vajra wasn't a two-way street, and that's probably part of what Grace used to screw with Ranka's head and get her to sing the Vajra on against Frontier. I mean really there's as much to suggest that the Vajra were every bit as pissed at Frontier as Frontier was at them. The only reason either of them stopped killing each other was because Galaxy was revealed, which gave them a common enemy. Not to say that what Ranka did wasn't dangerous, maybe even foolish, but I can't fault her for facing a situation, making a decision, and taking a course of action. Besides, Bless The Little Queen would have probably happened anyway just because Grace had control of her on Frontier just the same. It just required a quick adjustment to grab Ranka when she arrived at the Vajra Homeworld, it's not like Grace couldn't trace her on Brera's Lucifer. |
2010-10-27, 16:59 | Link #2072 | ||
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Anyway, the difference is this: Quote:
You stated as a certainty that she didn't know the Vajra were only after her. All I'm asking is, how do you know that? I believe it's a natural question to ask. |
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2010-10-27, 17:07 | Link #2073 | |
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The series has to address how Ranka feels and reacts to those things to have any emotional resonance in her choice to leave Frontier. Her leaving Frontier to save it COULD be framed as noble, but even if that's what's driving her actions in the series, it's not coming through. Merely giving an alternate interpretation as to her goals doesn't actually change the fact we see absolutely nothing, emotionally, from Ranka on our television screens. So it would fall flat regardless. That's why I'm saying it doesn't matter. Whether Ranka's a bitch or a saint, she's still flat, two-dimensional, and gives off the feeling of being entirely self-absorbed in the final episodes of the series.
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2010-10-27, 17:15 | Link #2074 | |
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I'm not saying you did. I'm just pointing out something good that may have come out of this discussion.
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2010-10-27, 17:26 | Link #2075 | |
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Oh, so you are going to pretend what I posted this day didn't exist? Okay.
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- Episode 20: "I've been able to to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... That is why I will go." WHAT exactly implies here that she knows for a certainty that she is the only cause which attracts the Vajra? If you imply that as a possibility, YOU need to come up with evidence that supports that. Otherwise you are making just a frank assumption of motives, which runs contrary to the stated motives.
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2010-10-27, 17:32 | Link #2076 |
A blast from the past
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By the same token, what in that statement is implying that she doesn't? I mean, honestly, you guys are debating assumptions provided by intentionally vague statements... I don't see much of a future, in that, but more power to both of you.
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2010-10-27, 17:45 | Link #2078 | |
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There is absolutely no rational reason for her not to mention this, especially in the context of her desperately wanting Alto to come with her on her journey or at least understand why she is leaving on a seeming suicide mission. Of course, if the argument is "Ranka is so fucking stupid and self-absorbed that she doesn't even think about giving hard arguments to Alto why she needs to leave on this dangerous mission and can only come up with "I think I may be this and that and I need to find it out. Oh, and bring Ai-kun back to his people, teehee!", then, fine, you can have your theory that she knew it all along. But not the one without the other. Because either you accept that the stated reasons were her reasons or your wild hypothesis must also accept the clear inference what that means for what she actually said to Alto. Next thing claimed is probably that it was super secret information which she only could have given Alto when they both were safely out of Frontiers orbit.
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2010-10-27, 17:48 | Link #2079 | |
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Really, I just started thinking about the scene the other day, and how so much of the "Traitor Ranka Lee" talk stemmed from that, so I went back and watched it again and realized that she could be doing the responsible thing by leaving. Then the question became, "Well WE know that the Vajra are only interested in her...what if SHE knows it, too? Then her leaving carries a completely different meaning to it. And if she knows that 'Aimo' is a Vajra love song, that might give her the information she needs in order to control them." I don't think it's that much of a stretch, really. It seemed (and still seems) like a plausible interpretation to me. I'm not even saying I believe it myself...I'm just playing with ideas here. |
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2010-10-27, 17:51 | Link #2080 |
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Mostly you are throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. Problem is, you need supporting evidence for that.
Hey, maybe Ranka was in reality a Vajra infiltrator, sent to wreck Frontier and outfitted with psychic powers to subdue those around her. That'd at least explain why everybody was making excuses for her fuck-ups the whole damn series. What, evidence? Pfffft, I'm just thinking, y'know.
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