[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[MeoTwister5]

I think most incinerators aren't hot enough to melt the metal used for keys.

[Kitsu]

I don't know if still worked as far as I know it wasn't tested even if it didn't melt completey the form might be changed a little making it useless. But I don't know just threw in a random thought

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Destroying a key is pretty difficult and can take a while. Remember, in episode 1, Kinzo's key survived being tossed in the incinerator.

Hiding a key is fast and easy. (For example, if the killer doesn't plan on using it again, toss it out into the middle of the roses. Nobody will be able to find it without a metal detector.) Even if somebody does discover the extra key, it poses little danger to the killer.

We have to assume that the culprit expects a full police investigation at some point after they get away with the crime. No unusual evidence can be found.

[TTR]

Originally Posted by Ssol

We have to assume that the culprit expects a full police investigation at some point after they get away with the crime. No unusual evidence can be found.

I think this is a faulty way of thinking. Ryu won't think that far to tell us "assume the killer acted knowing they were going to do an eventual police investigation." Remember in Higurashi, how Miyo was reported missing and they assumed the burned corpse was hers, but after a while the police realized it wasn't? If we assume that she was afraid of a police investigation, she would have made it more airtight since it's fairly easy for an investigator to just do an autopsy and realize it isn't the same person. If we assume they are trying to keep their murder from the police, we might be over-estimating the answer.

[~Diru~]

Also why would it be bad for the killer if the police found 6 master keys?
Just the knowledge of the existance of 6 master keys doesn't direct you to the culprit.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by TTR

I think this is a faulty way of thinking. Ryu won't think that far to tell us "assume the killer acted knowing they were going to do an eventual police investigation." Remember in Higurashi, how Miyo was reported missing and they assumed the burned corpse was hers, but after a while the police realized it wasn't? If we assume that she was afraid of a police investigation, she would have made it more airtight since it's fairly easy for an investigator to just do an autopsy and realize it isn't the same person. If we assume they are trying to keep their murder from the police, we might be over-estimating the answer.

The culprit wants the create the illusion of the witch murdering everyone.

Maria's letter at the end was not written by Maria but whoever wrote it signed the name Maria. However, they didn't think it through enough to realize that the handwriting would be analyzed.

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

Also why would it be bad for the killer if the police found 6 master keys?
Just the knowledge of the existance of 6 master keys doesn't direct you to the culprit.

The culprit is not just trying to get away with it the culprit also has the motive of creating a 'witch did it' illusion.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Key Board

At this point I'm certain the following is not the master mind:

Battler, at least, Battler as we know him
Krauss. Too damn inept to plan anything. Might be an accomplice, though
Natsuhi. Delusional, but not master mind material. Might be an accomplice
Maria. Too young
Kumasawa. Too old
Eva. The was most likely an accomplice during one of the games, but she's not the master mind. The episode 3 ending happened because an argument broke out between her and the master mind. ( Hideyoshi was killed among other things )
Hideyoshi. See above
Ange. Obviously... she's more a victim

I can't agree with Krauss (he could have an unusual talent for murder, and his bad sense of timing might lead to variations), Kumasawa (so she's old, so what?), and Hideyoshi (we know too little about him).

Originally Posted by Kaiba

You know, just thinking about it, does Battler ever actually see the attack upon Natsuhi's door in the first episode - ye olde "you can't trust anything Battler doesn't see" schpiel here, but I want to make sure.

Battler never really sees anything Natsuhi claims exists, which has some interesting implications given her instability. Is she actually being tormented, or is she making all that up out of desperation and crazy?

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

Well about Natsuhis room:

-Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual

I like how nobody seems to find it interesting that her room was ransacked and trashed, yet Beatrice says it was "just like usual." Is Natsuhi's room regularly trashed? Does she tear the room apart looking for something on the night of the 4th? After ep5, I can see her having a room in some kind of exploded state.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

It's an action taken on the spot, a plan not put into effect until the time arrives. Same with Eva's and Hideyoshi's the door was probably solid when Genji and Kanon were knocking on it.

Something I'd not considered: Is it possible to take a door completely off its hinges, and does that count as opening it?

Not that this really helps with locked doors. Maybe. I suppose you can take a deadbolted door off its hinges and replace it very carefully. But you'd need time and a screwdriver or power tool, so this is only really a feasible excuse for something like a First Twilight where the killer has plenty of time.

I agree, however, that the "only a key can lock this door" red truths have to be somewhat flexible to accomodate locking and unlocking from inside. Most doors simply do not have keyholes on both sides of the door; they're unlocked and locked by turning the bolt. Gohda opens the (locked!) chapel door during the ep2 magic scene (which means they may never have actually been in the chapel, but still, it suggests something), and tries to lock the door to Natsuhi's room through a similar maneuver. If the door can be locked while inside, certain closed rooms are easier while others are no different (because the killer was already excluded from being present, the room was stated to be searched, the room had nowhere to hide in absent an illegal secret area, etc.).

EDIT: Also, I like how the "perfect" closed room never seems to be used because it's too good: Kinzo's study. Throw something in there along with both keys, and the room is completely impossible to enter except through the windows (and nobody is allowed to do that until ep5 where they actually do, although at the time I think both keys weren't in the room). It's a possible resting place for Kanon in ep4, since Battler was completely unable to find him anywhere else.

[~Diru~]

Originally Posted by Renall

I like how nobody seems to find it interesting that her room was ransacked and trashed, yet Beatrice says it was "just like usual." Is Natsuhi's room regularly trashed? Does she tear the room apart looking for something on the night of the 4th? After ep5, I can see her having a room in some kind of exploded state.

The "just as usual" was said to be about the closed room definition IIRC.

Originally Posted by Renall

Not that this really helps with locked doors. Maybe. I suppose you can take a deadbolted door off its hinges and replace it very carefully. But you'd need time and a screwdriver or power tool, so this is only really a feasible excuse for something like a First Twilight where the killer has plenty of time.

Besides that :When locked, entry is not possible by any means

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

Besides that :When locked, entry is not possible by any means

Philosophically, a door that is not a door is not really locked. I didn't say it was a good idea, mind you.

[~Diru~]

I don't know if it is important, but when reading the EP 2 Tips I noticed sth:

Wasn't Gohda killed first?
Shannon and George died after him(in the scene shown to us)
Even so Shannon died at the fourth twilight and Gohda at the fifth so maybe either the order doesn't have to be right at all or Shannon was actually killed first somehow.

[Jan-Poo]

it appears that what matters is the order of the staking

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

I don't know if it is important, but when reading the EP 2 Tips I noticed sth:

Wasn't Gohda killed first?
Shannon and George died after him(in the scene shown to us)
Even so Shannon died at the fourth twilight and Gohda at the fifth so maybe either the order doesn't have to be right at all or Shannon was actually killed first somehow.

The order is not correct because Kumasawa and Nanjo died before those three. They should have been the real fourth and fifth.

The twilight must be determined only by where on your body you are staked for episode 3. However, Kyrie is staked in the head in episode 4 but is not the fourth twilight.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The culprit wants the create the illusion of the witch murdering everyone.

Then I guess he failed because there's nothing that would make you think the Rokkenjima incident was officially labeled as a crime. It doesn't look like the culprit cares about what the police might find. Legends and rumors spread in spite of any logic and evidence, we have plenty of cases like that in the real world.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then I guess he failed because there's nothing that would make you think the Rokkenjima incident was officially labeled as a crime. It doesn't look like the culprit cares about what the police might find. Legends and rumors spread in spite of any logic and evidence, we have plenty of cases like that in the real world.

Something does go wrong each episode. The culprit probably is killed each time.

Therefore, the finishing touches to create the illusion are never applied.

[~Diru~]

But maybe they were staked after George Gohda and Shannon, we didn't see that; on the other hand, we saw that Gohda was staked first and after that George and Shannon.
If the order isn't important, then why sticking to it?

[Goldsmith]

The culprit probably is killed each time.

Or so we are being led to believe....

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Something does go wrong each episode. The culprit probably is killed each time.

Therefore, the finishing touches to create the illusion are never applied.

Uh, frankly if he couldn't do the finishing touches, how the hell is that the police didn't labeled it as a crime?

It looks like whatever happens something at the end of each game occurs in a way that any evidence is destroyed.

[Jan-Poo]

Well the easier explanation is that the whole thing of the sacrifices to revive the witch is just a sham.

[k//eternal]

I'm still guessing "landslide", myself...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uh, frankly if he couldn't do the finishing touches, how the hell is that the police didn't labeled it as a crime?

It looks like whatever happens something at the end of each game occurs in a way that any evidence is destroyed.

Right, something happens that screws up the plan.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I'm still guessing "landslide", myself...

Eva-Beatrice: No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.

What if the person who kills the culprit or the person who is left at the very end realizes what the culprit was trying to do and decides to hide what really happened?