[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[rogerpepitone]

Question about Nanjo's death

"Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching over her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room." (「絵羽はあなたとずっと一緒にいたわ。だから犯行は不可能。もちろん戦人くんは犯人じゃないわ。アリバイ 偽装なんてしてないし、彼女が犯人の可能性も考慮していたから、その行動は用心深く見張ってた。彼女には、 不審なことをできるあらゆる可能性が存在しなかった！つまり、犯行時の使用人室には、南條と朱志香しかいな かったのよ。」)

What is the exact meaning of the original text for "In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room."? Specifically, what phrase was translated as "the crime"? (Could "At the time Nanjo died ..." be an accurate translation?)

Sometimes, a person can receive a fatal injury, move on without realizing it, and then collapse sometime later. (Sometimes with head injuries, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabe...ess_of_Austria http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...02914908011685 )

George approaches Nanjo. While they're talking, George realizes that Nanjo is the only person without any alibi for the first twilight. In revenge for Shannon, he strikes at Nanjo. Nanjo somehow overpowers George and throws him out the window. George somehow staggers to the mansion, or somebody drags his body there.

Another thing I noticed. A lot of people wind up dead in the parlor. Shannon's corpse is found there, and George is later found there. Eva runs off, and Battler chases her. Eventually, he accuses her in the parlor, and she shoots him. In addition, Jessica is last seen hiding behind the drapes in the parlor.

Also, Nanjo apparently left the servants' room before his death, but the red text has him still there.

[k//eternal]

I don't remember, regarding that incident, was it confirmed that the culprit was in the room? I think I remember it being said that the culprit was right before Nanjo's eyes, but that's not the same thing.

For instance, if you're standing in front of the doorway, someone outside the room can shoot you right in front of your eyes. Same goes for windows.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by paraalso

I agree and hope that meta-Battler will get a resolution of his own. I don't think he's yet realized that he may not be able to go home himself though. That might become a major plotpoint in the future chapters as another arrow in Beatrice's arsenal. After all he does say something like this in the fourth game:
"You know, I don't have anymore time to be playing around in a place like this.
...Even a tie will keep Ange waiting ...So, I'll break through you, ...take my family, ...and go back home!!"

I agree he will eventually accept that he's fighting for other Battlers and other Ushiromiyas, perhaps an infinite amount of Battlers since the game could take an eternity. As far as the meta-world is concerned, it seems like each game is more like an alternate universe of its own, instead of repeating time over and over in the same one.

From how I see it, whatever happens in future games, there are already 4 worlds where the Ushiromiya family met a tragic end. The way Bern and Lambdadelta speak of the Kakeras reminds me of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics in a way. Afterall, the game that resulted in Ange's future was real enough (as far as the fantasy side is concerned at least) for her to live her life after the incident, and eventually enter the meta-realm to help meta-Battler.

Personally, going an anti-fantasy route, I think Meta-Battler is more of a subconscious entity, like the back of Battler's head that keeps telling him to deny that a witch can ever do something. Beatrice, Lambda, Bern, Virgilia, Ange and all the other demons and witches might be as well - Beatrice looking the same way she does in the portrait could be how Battler interprets her to look like. And he does mention (as a shameless plug) that Higurashi is his favorite game during EP 1, so Bern and Lambda being expies of Rika and Takano aren't too far fetched.

That's just me though :P

[rogerpepitone]

"Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him...!!" (「南條は他殺よ。…もちろん、トラップではなく、直接的な殺害方法よ。凶器を構え、それにて真正面の至近 距離から殺した！　犯人は、南條の目の前に堂々と現れ、そして互いに顔を見合わせながら、殺害したのだ…！ ！」)

[Christen]

The room argument isn't difficult. It's just like k//eternal said, it could be that the culprit is standing in the hallway.

[stray]

So um. Has anyone dropped 'Macbeth' as a theory yet as far as Battler's mom? I know everyone's high school English class memories are probably hazy, but the gist of it is that a witch prophecized that "none of woman born" could harm Macbeth, the technicality being that his enemy Macduff was "from his mother’s womb untimely ripped" via cesarean section... and technically, not born from a woman.

[rogerpepitone]

You weren't reading my comment. I don't care where the killer was. The red text has Nanjo in the servants' room; Jessica's account has him out in the hall. (Or maybe that's an indication that we should take the whole account of Nanjo's murder as made up.)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by stray

So um. Has anyone dropped 'Macbeth' as a theory yet as far as Battler's mom? I know everyone's high school English class memories are probably hazy, but the gist of it is that a witch prophecized that "none of woman born" could harm Macbeth, the technicality being that his enemy Macduff was "from his mother’s womb untimely ripped" via cesarean section... and technically, not born from a woman.

I remember that, but even at the time I thought that was an incredibly lame excuse to justify the "not born from a woman" theory. A "woman" isn't just her reproductive apparatus.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A "woman" isn't just her reproductive apparatus.

That depends on the perpective (like Kinzo's )

[Goose Boy]

I have a theory regarding stakes...

lets suppose that there are only 7 stakes, and you know all of them.

which ones have been thoroughly lenght?

-Lucifer: Jessica got it our from Krauss in EP3
-Satan: ", got from kanon in ep1

why in the ending always appears which stake kills who? because I think that there is a short stake and is used by the culprit to fake his/her death, which is mammon.... lets get proof:

EP1: The six killed in the rose garden´s tool shed, had an accomplice that locked it from the outside, faked his/her death, then got out after and did the Second twilight hiding down the bed, placed the trap that killed kanon and disposed of kinzo in the boiler with mammon, as he/she faked his/her death in the first twilight, X doesnt need mammon.

EP2: ......Shannon? I ignore how the second twilight took place but... Shannon?

EP3: Of course, everyone knows that Rudolf, Hideyoshi or Kyrie killed Nanjo, who do you think done it? Guess...

EP4: Staking names does not take place in this EP, as it may turn things pretty obvious, but a clue may be ALL THE ATTENTION THAT MAMMON RECIEVED THAT EP...

therefore, Shannon, Kyrie, and Shannon/Kyrie/X faked their death through the use of Mammon, but in EP4 they didnt need them because the simplicity of that board.

However, I am too lazy for rereading this part from EP4, but Ange lenghts Mammon, as a 30 cm stake, maybe the "stake" part is detachable from the hanger...

[yangxu]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Yes, that's the poison theory I was pushing a while back. It would also explain Battler's death at the end, if the wine was poisoned.

Yeah, I haven't really kept up with the posts, but I personally think this theory is plausible. Unless the Ushiromiya bloodline has a genetically inherited type of dementia, it makes no sense that all of them are seeing demons, let alone those who do not carry the Ushiromiya genes (eg. Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Natsushi, etc.).

Hence, a chemical which its effect grows stronger in response to a person's stress level would make sense (assuming everyone ingests this at some point in time following their arrivals on the island). For example, let's say Natsushi was killed right in front of everyone, the shock and gory sight would most definitely raise everyone's blood pressure and stress level, which in turn, creates delusional images of the culprit. Rather than seeing Shannon firing the shotgun, people might see a bunny girl firing magical arrows.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Goose Boy

I have a theory regarding stakes...

lets suppose that there are only 7 stakes, and you know all of them.

which ones have been thoroughly lenght?

-Lucifer: Jessica got it our from Krauss in EP3
-Satan: ", got from kanon in ep1

why in the ending always appears which stake kills who? because I think that there is a short stake and is used by the culprit to fake his/her death, which is mammon.... lets get proof:

EP1: The six killed in the rose garden´s tool shed, had an accomplice that locked it from the outside, faked his/her death, then got out after and did the Second twilight hiding down the bed, placed the trap that killed kanon and disposed of kinzo in the boiler with mammon, as he/she faked his/her death in the first twilight, X doesnt need mammon.

EP2: ......Shannon? I ignore how the second twilight took place but... Shannon?

EP3: Of course, everyone knows that Rudolf, Hideyoshi or Kyrie killed Nanjo, who do you think done it? Guess...

EP4: Staking names does not take place in this EP, as it may turn things pretty obvious, but a clue may be ALL THE ATTENTION THAT MAMMON RECIEVED THAT EP...

therefore, Shannon, Kyrie, and Shannon/Kyrie/X faked their death through the use of Mammon, but in EP4 they didnt need them because the simplicity of that board.

However, I am too lazy for rereading this part from EP4, but Ange lenghts Mammon, as a 30 cm stake, maybe the "stake" part is detachable from the hanger...

Sorry, I'm almost pretty sure you're on to something there but... uh... I can't get through your post.

[Jan-Poo]

I think he's saying that one of the stakes is a fake and the one who get staked by it is the person that is faking his/her death in the various episodes.
However I wonder why he chose Mammon of all the stakes since it's the only one that was seen outside the "closed space" of Rokkenjima.

[Christen]

Mammon must also be a hint or just a representation of Ange's character/tendencies.

[Marion]

Well everyone has a little greed in them. Personally I think Kyrie was stuck with that stake after Leviathan ~mysteriously vanished~ because she probably wanted Rudolf all to herself :P

[Alaya]

I think Mammon is the most compatible with Ange because she has a very strong greed (to uncover the truth and bring back her family). But it could also be a subtle hint that one of the fake is a fake too.

[Auria]

Don't know if it's true, but I heard that 2ch made up the "Mammon x Ange" thingy and Ryuukishi took it in his game with choosing Mammon as personal stake.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I remember that, but even at the time I thought that was an incredibly lame excuse to justify the "not born from a woman" theory. A "woman" isn't just her reproductive apparatus.

It's semantic more than sexist, but I guess the mortality rate was pretty high in Shakespeare's time. Like theacefrehley said, though, look at Kinzo's (and the family as a whole's) values.

It's not exactly an obscure literary reference, either, Shakespeare is pretty universal. Of course, if that's the case, then the issue isn't really who Battler's mom is, but why playful Beato all of a sudden just wants to get the hell away so badly she's willing to bury him on a cheap technicality.

Battler killed her Sakutaro maybe?

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by stray

So um. Has anyone dropped 'Macbeth' as a theory yet as far as Battler's mom? I know everyone's high school English class memories are probably hazy, but the gist of it is that a witch prophecized that "none of woman born" could harm Macbeth, the technicality being that his enemy Macduff was "from his mother’s womb untimely ripped" via cesarean section... and technically, not born from a woman.

I was thinking about that at one point, but it doesn't work.

"#ff0000It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.#ffffff"

Unless you want to say that Asumu had two Battlers, one by c-section.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by yangxu

Hence, a chemical which its effect grows stronger in response to a person's stress level would make sense (assuming everyone ingests this at some point in time following their arrivals on the island). For example, let's say Natsushi was killed right in front of everyone, the shock and gory sight would most definitely raise everyone's blood pressure and stress level, which in turn, creates delusional images of the culprit. Rather than seeing Shannon firing the shotgun, people might see a bunny girl firing magical arrows.

This simply doesn't make sense. The same chemicals shouldn't induce identical delusions. You could say the only totally accurate account in ep4 was the one Kyrie gave, and so Battler assumed everyone else suffered identical delusions, but if two characters in any given game had compared their delusions they shouldn't be identical.

It might make sense if the delusions were, say, from Maria's POV. But Maria wasn't with anyone else in ep4, and she certainly didn't witness the killings. Why would Kyrie imagine magic bunnygirls? Why would everyone imagine Kinzo doing the same things, or Gaap? Drugging people just doesn't work that way.