Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

[snip]

-HyugaNeji- the sharingan has defensive abilities to, predicting movements, that and the skill to watch all of your enemys moves.

Edit: Sorry for the spoilers but couldn't you have avoided the snip :P Now I don't remember what I wrote lol

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

You miss an important point. You can't just say "which eye is stronger" without considering the use of your own body. It's not like these eyes are in a jar and fighting each other.

lol....thats a good one....that image deserves to have a dA!

[ronin myael]

Yeah, sorry for the spoilers mod. Forgot to put in spoiler tags.

I was just responding to a post I read earlier which unfortunately I can't talk about now. Bummer!

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

You miss an important point. You can't just say "which eye is stronger" without considering the use of your own body. It's not like these eyes are in a jar and fighting each other.

The Sharingan clearly is an offensive eye, while the byakugan is a defensive eye. So if you define strong, as "offensive", then the sharingan would be your choice. If you define strong, as "defensive", then the byakugan gives you a much better variety of possibilities. The sharingan is tied to the uchiha body to access it's full potential while the Byakugan is tied to the Hyuga Bodyto access it's full potential. The sharingan, i agree here, gives the user the possibility to not really do much during a fight except using the eye. The strenght of the Byakugan on the other hand comes from the combination of body and eye (because of it's defensive nature). That's why you can't look at it seperated.

In football(soccer), there's both tactics. Offensive, fast play, and defensive play to create openings for counter attacks. Both tactics are valid and have shown to be effective (On a side note. The defensive tactic is more sucessful in tournaments. There is this quote. Offense wins games, Defense wins tournaments)

So if you consider a fight between a byakugan user and a sharingan user, you have to take into account the use of the body. If a byakugan user would be able to see an amaterasu attack miles ahead, why shouldn't he be allowed to avoid it? It was his eye which created this chance in the first place. So that would be it's strength and advantage at this point.

In the end, it's always about the "user" and his or her capabilities. If an offensive Football team can't break a defense to shoot goals, and the defensive team isn't good enough in their offense to shoot goals, it'll be a draw.

I think you got the wrong idea. I am saying what you are saying, but someone redefined the parameters of the discussion, and my post that you quoted in order to reply was saying that those parameters didn't make sense. From what I gather, you're saying the same exact thing.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

You miss an important point. You can't just say "which eye is stronger" without considering the use of your own body. It's not like these eyes are in a jar and fighting each other.

The Sharingan clearly is an offensive eye, while the byakugan is a defensive eye. So if you define strong, as "offensive", then the sharingan would be your choice. If you define strong, as "defensive", then the byakugan gives you a much better variety of possibilities. The sharingan is tied to the uchiha body to access it's full potential while the Byakugan is tied to the Hyuga Bodyto access it's full potential. The sharingan, i agree here, gives the user the possibility to not really do much during a fight except using the eye. The strenght of the Byakugan on the other hand comes from the combination of body and eye (because of it's defensive nature). That's why you can't look at it seperated.

Neither eye is neatly categorized as "offensive" or "defensive". Each one offers different abilities that can be for both offense or defense according to preference. Yeah, Byakugan has many uses that can be considered defensive like being able to spot hidden enemies/traps from a great distance nearly 360° around, but a good part of it's abilities are applied offensively too. The Jyuuken fighting style is based on using Byakugan to locate and strike inner coils. Also, users who can see the tenketsu like Neji can completely cut-off chakra. Byakugan is actually used more for offense during most battles as this is preferred way of fighting for the Hyuuga.

Expanding on what Kenshin_Uchiha said, Sharingan's ability to predict and read movements is great for defensive maneuvering and avoiding attacks. It can see through most genjutsu meaning Sharingan user has a huge defensive advantage in that area (arguably higher than Byakugan's). Seeing chakra flow/color is also another ability which has defensive purposes (similar to Byakugan)

Spoiler:

Just to be fair, we can leave out Susanno which summons giant ethereal warrior who can repel any attack

The big difference is that Sharingan can be used directly to attack, either through genjutsu or MS techniques, while Byakugan can only be used indirectly on the offensive. In that aspect, Sharingan is more offensive. But I wouldn't really say Sharingan lacks at all in the defensive area. Even compared to Byakugan.

In football(soccer), there's both tactics. Offensive, fast play, and defensive play to create openings for counter attacks. Both tactics are valid and have shown to be effective (On a side note. The defensive tactic is more sucessful in tournaments. There is this quote. Offense wins games, Defense wins tournaments)

It's the opposite in fighting/war though. Going on the defensive usually means a disadvantage. Watch any boxing match or UFC competition and you'll see. The side who can gain offensive dominance the quickest is usually the one that wins.

So if you consider a fight between a byakugan user and a sharingan user, you have to take into account the use of the body. If a byakugan user would be able to see an amaterasu attack miles ahead, why shouldn't he be allowed to avoid it? It was his eye which created this chance in the first place. So that would be it's strength and advantage at this point.

Well, I don't know why a Sharingan user would use Amateratsu from miles away because they generally want to see the target before using Amaterasu. But no, a Byakugan user couldn't avoid it no matter how far they were because the flames don't travel to the opponent, instead the area where the user focuses sight is ignited. Byakugan can't "see" Amaterasu coming.

In the end, it's always about the "user" and his or her capabilities. If an offensive Football team can't break a defense to shoot goals, and the defensive team isn't good enough in their offense to shoot goals, it'll be a draw.

That's true. Though if you consider Byakugan and Sharingan as tools or weapons the overall effectiveness of each has to be taken to account. What's more dangerous? A trained soldier with a fork or a novice with a M16? That's an extreme example and I'm not saying that kind of power gap exists between Byakugan and Sharingan but if two otherwise equally capable fighters go at it, the one with the most strongest/effective weapon is more likely to win. Of course, what's most "effective" can change scenario to scenario.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Neither eye is neatly categorized as "offensive" or "defensive". Each one offers different abilities that can be for both offense or defense according to preference. Yeah, Byakugan has many uses that can be considered defensive like being able to spot hidden enemies/traps from a great distance nearly 360° around, but a good part of it's abilities are applied offensively too. The Jyuuken fighting style is based on using Byakugan to locate and strike inner coils. Also, users who can see the tenketsu like Neji can completely cut-off chakra. Byakugan is actually used more for offense during most battles as this is preferred way of fighting for the Hyuuga.

The Premise of Defense and Offense is not that far off, based on the Eye and the Eye only, forgetting about the added Benefits the user can give them. in this case, Is not the Byakugan that is giving an offensive edge, rather the user is exploiting what the Byakugan gives to use offensive moves (this is why we all agree that the wielder is very important for the tool to work properly).

With the Shriagn, the majority of things have an offensive mean, its looks more like an eye designed for Battle, : been able to copy the fighting style of your opponent, the in-house ability to manage Genejutsu, and the MS..all have offensive means, or better put, fighting means..

Whereas, if you look at the Byakugan, everything is based for recon and have more details about the surrounding environment, hence the expression, “it is more powerful than the sharingan in insights abilities”. None of the ability of the Byakugan alone has an battle like feel to it.

To make it more simple, if the average Human would wake up with the Baykugan tomorrow, he would still get his ass kicked by a more experienced fighter (I like to joke saying that the difference would be, that he is going to see better his ass kicked than before), while, the story would be different if that Human would wake up with the Sharingan.

[Sabaku Kyu]

I get where your coming from Rurik, but I still say it's misleading. Even if Byakugan's powers inherently lean towards defense, from what we've seen most Hyuuga (if not all) are trained to use the eye offensively, using it with Jyuuken to locate and attack certain spots on the body. They mostly act, rather than react

If we're going to say that Sharingan abilities are not naturally defensive, but only exploited in a way that the user makes defensive, then I could say the same about Byakugan. The eye itself doesn't provide any defense, it's up to the user to take advantage of the defensive potential, same as Sharingan. Whether the defensive potential of Byakugan is higher...that's a whole separate argument. But just to say Byakugan's hands-down better defensively than Sharingan that's debatable.

The time we actually see Byakugan used mostly for defense in battle, during Neji vs. Kidomaru, it was clear Neji didn't prefer that way of fighting and only wanted to quickly close the distance so he could go back to his usual aggressive style.

And yes, Byakugan is useful for scouting and recon, but that's not really defense in the strict definition. During battle, the eye is used mostly in an offensive way.

Eh, to-may-to, to-mah-to I guess.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I get where your coming from Rurik, but I still say it's misleading. Even if Byakugan's powers inherently lean towards defense, from what we've seen most Hyuuga (if not all) are trained to use the eye offensively, using it with Jyuuken to locate and attack certain spots on the body. They mostly act, rather than react.

I don’t think you get mi drift compleley, what IM saying here is not whom is better or worst in defenseive/offensive terms (these terms could be used loosely at best), what Im talking about here is that the abilities of the Byakugan leans natrally for observation while the Sharigan leans naturally for combat.

Im talking from the perspective of the the Eye outside any training.

While Byakugan acts more as a Radar in a war plane, to give support to the entire ship, The Sharingan (and maybe the reason why so many people dislike it) is basically a tool to fight, even if you don’t copy any Jutsu, you still have the hypnotic like abilities the Sharigan seems to be born with, not to mention that once you unlock the MS, you seem to gain access to Jutsus without the need to train them to use them.

So, my observation are mostly based on the eye, seen trough a perspective outside the families that are born with it, Because I myself always considered this thread to be for a Byakugan and Shairgan comparison, rather than a Hyuga and Uchiha comparison.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Im talking from the perspective of the the Eye outside any training.

While Byakugan acts more as a Radar in a war plane, to give support to the entire ship, The Sharingan (and maybe the reason why so many people dislike it) is basically a tool to fight, even if you don’t copy any Jutsu, you still have the hypnotic like abilities the Sharigan seems to be born with, not to mention that once you unlock the MS, you seem to gain access to Jutsus without the need to train them to use them.

Ok, think I'm crystal on what you're saying. So far, I agree with the analogy. But even judging just from the powers of the doujutsu alone and not user's abilities, Sharingan also offers some powerful observational abilities (that are mostly overshadowed by it's powerful attacking capability in the story) and it doesn't seem to me like Byakugan's abilities make it perfectly balanced against the Sharingan.

I do agree with the basic difference in nature though: observational vs. combative.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I do agree with the basic difference in nature though: observational vs. combative.

Yes, that's basically the idea, and the reason why in the begining I mentioned that the offensive/deffensive comparison was not far off (far off, been the keyword here)

[ronin myael]

One of the main reasons why I was impressed with the byakugan is because it’s far from perfect. In itself it’s basically just an imitation of Superman’s x-ray vision but with a much wider range. But when partnered with jyuuken and kaiten, it becomes a formidable weapon. Byakugan allows its user to see chakra points, with that knowledge the user then makes use of the gentle fist for offensive attacks. But since byakugan has blind spots the user must use kaiten for defensive purposes. Each jutsu that the Hyuugas created is centered on the byakugan and is meant to complement it. I won’t be surprised if they keep developing jutsus to make up for the byakugan’s flaws. I think Kishimoto did well in creating byakugan and its complementing techniques. It’s obvious that he really thought this one out.

But with sharingan it’s different. We see very little complementing jutsus for it, except for the Uchihas’ favorite katon jutsu. Mangekyou sharingan is really a sort of mutation, not everyone could awaken it. Sharingan in itself (without MS) is comparable to that of Copycat’s ability in the TV series Heroes. Its main ability is it can see through and copy almost all jutsus. It takes in what it sees, analyzes it, allowing its user to understand it, predict it and eventually reproduce it. In the real world it might be considered a psychic ability. With sharingan, the battle is mostly fought in one’s mind. Strong genjutsu users like Itachi can kill opponents without doing any real physical damage to them. The sharingan’s main weaknesses are that it can’t imitate jutsus that are based on other kekkei genkai and it can’t keep up with certain taijutsu attacks. Yet we haven’t seen any real Uchiha jutsu to solve these weaknesses, all we got was mangekyou sharingan and it’s hardly a solution since not every sharingan user can possess such a highly evolved ability.

But usually when you say a certain ability evolves into something else, it’s basically just an upgraded version of the original. I can understand why Itachi’s sharingan could evolve into tsukuyomi since sharingan can wield certain genjutsus. But amaterasu is a bit off for me. Where did that incredible fire power come from? It’s not an illusion-type ability nor a copying one. Amaterasu’s flames are physical, they’re not a form of illusion nor a manifestation of any sort. I don’t get it. Madara’s mangekyou sharingan I don’t understand either. How can sharingan evolve into that? Kishimoto didn’t really elaborate on that piece of information. If anyone here can enlighten me regarding this subject then please do, perhaps I missed something.

I think that Kishimoto just wanted to make sharingan monstrously fearsome and mind-blowing enough so that his readers would cower in fear for Naruto and anyone who dares to fight it. Also he needed to justify Orochimaru’s greedy desire to possess it. If sharingan remained the same then it wouldn’t be so special in the first place. But some of the sharingan’s evolved states don’t seem to be directly connected to it, like Kishimoto just added them so people would stare in awe and say, “wow that is so cool!” It just doesn’t fit, well at least not for me. I was hoping for a little more thought-out jutsu to complement the sharingan like kaiten and jyuuken of byakugan, or perhaps more believable upgrades like tsukuyomi. So far, I’m unimpressed with amaterasu and Madara’s mangekyou sharingan. They seem too made-up to be believable.

[FateAnomaly]

The sharingan is actually a symbiotic alien virus that made its way to the naruto-verse. The virus possesses psychic ability which manifest differently after mutation. However, not all humans are symbiotically compatible. Only the uchiha's eye possess the condition for its survival. Mutation occurs under high stress condition where the body produces chemical which disrupts the symbiotic relationship. The virus reacts by attempting to mutate to adapt to the changes. It mutation becomes the mangekyou sharingan.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Why would sharingan evolve it's existing capacitys when you upgrade it to mangekyo? The whole bloodline concept was invented by kishi why would you want it to follow your rulles? There are no rulles.

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

Why would sharingan evolve it's existing capacitys when you upgrade it to mangekyo? The whole bloodline concept was invented by kishi why would you want it to follow your rulles? There are no rulles.

There is one all-important rule that Kishimoto broke when he created these new techniques for Mangekyo: Logic.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

What is the logic of performing hand seals to spit fire?

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

What is the logic of performing hand seals to spit fire?

I'll grant you that, but it's not what I meant. I meant that in his world, following his pre-established rules, mangekyo's techiques don't make sense. The regular, pre-mangekyo sharingan has no real offensive capabilities on its own; rather it allows one to copy offensive capabilities from others. Then, out of nowhere, it becomes mangekyo, and has abilities completely unrelated to the previous ones?

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

I get what you are saying, but we haven't seen (atleast I don't remember anny) bloodlines that evolve, so we can't assume what happens and what doesn't.

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

I get what you are saying, but we haven't seen (atleast I don't remember anny) bloodlines that evolve, so we can't assume what happens and what doesn't.

Well, we could consider Haku's... It sarted as water-control, and escalated into the Crystal Ice mirrors... But I'm not sure if that could be counted.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

But usually when you say a certain ability evolves into something else, it’s basically just an upgraded version of the original. I can understand why Itachi’s sharingan could evolve into tsukuyomi since sharingan can wield certain genjutsus. But amaterasu is a bit off for me. Where did that incredible fire power come from? It’s not an illusion-type ability nor a copying one. Amaterasu’s flames are physical, they’re not a form of illusion nor a manifestation of any sort. I don’t get it. Madara’s mangekyou sharingan I don’t understand either. How can sharingan evolve into that? Kishimoto didn’t really elaborate on that piece of information. If anyone here can enlighten me regarding this subject then please do, perhaps I missed something.

Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:

I've thought about that too, ronin myael. IMO, all of the MS sharingan's abilities stem from what Kakashi was able to achieve with Kamui. Basically, the MS is nothing but a key that unlocks a portal to another dimension. I believe that's all MS is.

With Tsukuyomi, it puts a victims mind in another dimension that is governed by the user's will. The user stays aware of time in the real world while the victim is completely overwhelmed by the dimension's properties which are all controlled by the user's will.

With Amaterasu, I believe that amaterasu itself isn't a justu, but an element that Itachi found and trapped inside his dimension. When it appears that Itachi is using it, all he is actually doing is opening a portal which acts as a conduit for amaterasu to flow through.

Susanoo even goes further to support this theory. Why would Orochimaru spend all his life looking for the Totsuka sword that wound up being in Itachi's eyes? Not even mention is Yata's Mirror. This goes to prove that Itachi was able to find and store items which he found use for in a pocket dimension that his eyes could open a portal to.

I believe that all the mangekyo sharigan can do is see through the fabric of time/space and manipulate a rift. Once the rift is opened the user will determine toward which end he'll use the rift's properties. Its almost similar to Orochimaro's internal dimension. While this ability would make a ninja very powerful, I believe that this technique is only as powerful as the items a ninja finds and seals withing his own dimension. It occurs to me that Itachi was the most powerful MS user because he went out and found the most powerful items that he could use for offense(amaterasu) and defense(Susanoo) along with already enhancing his own genjutsu(tsukuyomi).

I believe that Madara isn't human anymore. Or at least completely. I think the the EMS grants everlasting chakra to a user's eyes, but while the eyes will last forever, the user's body will not. So, its very possible that Madara exists much in the way that Sasori did, having only one living part of him, while the rest is artificial. It would explain why he's so old yet still running around like a young ninja. Or another possibility could be that since the EMS allows a user to travel to the pocket dimension where they control time and space, this could also explain why Madara is still alive. If Madara dwells in this dimension for the majority of time, he doesn't have to age. If he stops or even dramatically slows down time enough he could literally have only aged a few days in the last 60 years.

I believe that the new jutsu that is born from the EMS is just being able to open a larger portal. When Naruto hit Madara with the rasengan, all Madara had to do was open a portal at the point of impact and the force of the rasengan would dissipate in another dimension. When he escaped Shino's bugs, all he had to do was wait until he himself was covered completely(so that no one could actually see what was about to happen) and then pull himself into his own dimension, reappearing somewhere else unharmed.

It all goes back to what Kakashi stated about having a great mastery over time and space manipulation. This would definitely qualify.

That's my take on MS after reading the story and watching the anime. Makes sense, at least to me.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:

I've thought about that too, ronin myael. IMO, all of the MS sharingan's abilities stem from what Kakashi was able to achieve with Kamui. Basically, the MS is nothing but a key that unlocks a portal to another dimension. I believe that's all MS is.

With Tsukuyomi, it puts a victims mind in another dimension that is governed by the user's will. The user stays aware of time in the real world while the victim is completely overwhelmed by the dimension's properties which are all controlled by the user's will.

With Amaterasu, I believe that amaterasu itself isn't a justu, but an element that Itachi found and trapped inside his dimension. When it appears that Itachi is using it, all he is actually doing is opening a portal which acts as a conduit for amaterasu to flow through.

Susanoo even goes further to support this theory. Why would Orochimaru spend all his life looking for the Totsuka sword that wound up being in Itachi's eyes? Not even mention is Yata's Mirror. This goes to prove that Itachi was able to find and store items which he found use for in a pocket dimension that his eyes could open a portal to.

I believe that all the mangekyo sharigan can do is see through the fabric of time/space and manipulate a rift. Once the rift is opened the user will determine toward which end he'll use the rift's properties. Its almost similar to Orochimaro's internal dimension. While this ability would make a ninja very powerful, I believe that this technique is only as powerful as the items a ninja finds and seals withing his own dimension. It occurs to me that Itachi was the most powerful MS user because he went out and found the most powerful items that he could use for offense(amaterasu) and defense(Susanoo) along with already enhancing his own genjutsu(tsukuyomi).

I believe that Madara isn't human anymore. Or at least completely. I think the the EMS grants everlasting chakra to a user's eyes, but while the eyes will last forever, the user's body will not. So, its very possible that Madara exists much in the way that Sasori did, having only one living part of him, while the rest is artificial. It would explain why he's so old yet still running around like a young ninja. Or another possibility could be that since the EMS allows a user to travel to the pocket dimension where they control time and space, this could also explain why Madara is still alive. If Madara dwells in this dimension for the majority of time, he doesn't have to age. If he stops or even dramatically slows down time enough he could literally have only aged a few days in the last 60 years.

I believe that the new jutsu that is born from the EMS is just being able to open a larger portal. When Naruto hit Madara with the rasengan, all Madara had to do was open a portal at the point of impact and the force of the rasengan would dissipate in another dimension. When he escaped Shino's bugs, all he had to do was wait until he himself was covered completely(so that no one could actually see what was about to happen) and then pull himself into his own dimension, reappearing somewhere else unharmed.

It all goes back to what Kakashi stated about having a great mastery over time and space manipulation. This would definitely qualify.

That's my take on MS after reading the story and watching the anime. Makes sense, at least to me.

Hmmm, that's a good analysis. I'm actually beginning to understand it.

Spoiler for mangekyou sharingan:

I've been thinking about susanoo too, I thought that was a bit too grand for an eye technique. Itachi was basically summoning a creature and uses it as a tool. But then if I think about Kakashi's mangekyou sharingan it kind of makes sense. It seems that they are indeed opening a doorway to another dimension. Which dimension is it, I wonder? Are they the only ones who could open it? Madara's eternal mangekyou was said to have been a combination of his and his brother Izuma's so maybe that MS is especially unique to him. It's still a lot of power for an eye technique though.