Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[james0246]

I do not say this often, but I think you are looking into this situation too deeply .

Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

With Tsukuyomi, it puts a victims mind in another dimension that is governed by the user's will. The user stays aware of time in the real world while the victim is completely overwhelmed by the dimension's properties which are all controlled by the user's will.

Well, the "dimension" need not be an actual space. Specifically, it could simply be a mental dimension, a place that exists within this world and within the victims mind, but the MS allows the user to control said space resulting in the techniques we know as Tsukuyomi.

To put it another way, which makes more sense: the MS ripping open a dimensional hole and transporting a portion of a human mind into a different dimension; or the MS simply constructing an illusionary world inside the victims mind which the MS-user controls?

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

With Amaterasu, I believe that Amaterasu itself isn't a jutsu, but an element that Itachi found and trapped inside his dimension. When it appears that Itachi is using it, all he is actually doing is opening a portal which acts as a conduit for Amaterasu to flow through.

Honestly there need be nothing so complicated involved with Amaterasu as the fire coming from a "portal." This is a world in which fire can be blown out of a person's mouth, and you are questioning an eye having the ability to creating fire ?

Again, it is far more likely that the Amaterasu is simply what it looks like, a high intensity flame that the MS eye can produce simply by looking at something when the technique is activated. There need be nothing complicated about the mechanism for delivery (i.e. a "portal").

(Here is a possible theory for you: the left eye which Itachi used to produce Tsukuyomi could be used to inject Itachi's chakra into his victims mind (the technique "drills" into a specific area of the mind so that control can be gained of the mind effectively allowing Itachi to briefly control the mind), while the right eye that produces Amaterasu could be used to "coat" all that Itachi can see with his chakra, that then combusts (Specifically, Itachi's chakra is probably used as a "fuel" coating all that the eye can see (much the same as lighter fluid on a log/charcoal), and then the chakra is set aflame and stays burning for a sufficient period of time).)

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Susanoo even goes further to support this theory. Why would Orochimaru spend all his life looking for the Totsuka sword that wound up being in Itachi's eyes? Not even mention is Yata's Mirror. This goes to prove that Itachi was able to find and store items which he found use for in a pocket dimension that his eyes could open a portal to.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Yata Mirror or Totsuka Sword are always part of Susanoo (and of course the mirror and sword pre-date Itachi), or would always appear when an MS-user creates Susanoo (it has been mostly confirmed that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are MS techniques that all Uchiha MS-users can use, so it is possible that Susanoo is the same). In fact, since they are considered legendary items, and MS has only existed for 50 or so years (since the time of Madara), I seriously doubt that the items could have developed their singular reputation if they had only been around for 50 years, and were always controlled by the Uchiha. Specifically, Orochimaru only knew of the Totsuka sword as a singular entity (not controlled by any clan, nor always grouped with the Yata mirror), but if the sword could only be used with/summoned by Susanoo, then Orochimaru should have known that the sword was part of Susanoo. Since Orochimaru did not know that the sword was part of a larger technique (otherwise he would have not searched for it), and he, and Zetsu, knew the sword as a legendary item, it is far more likely that Itachi simply incorporated the Sword and Mirror into his Susanoo technique (Additionally, it does not make sense for the weapons to have only existed within a separate dimension because otherwise they would have never reached their level of prominence within the normal world).

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I believe that Madara isn't human anymore. Or at least completely. I think the EMS grants everlasting chakra to a user's eyes, but while the eyes will last forever, the user's body will not. So, it’s very possible that Madara exists much in the way that Sasori did, having only one living part of him, while the rest is artificial. It would explain why he's so old yet still running around like a young ninja. Or another possibility could be that since the EMS allows a user to travel to the pocket dimension where they control time and space, this could also explain why Madara is still alive. If Madara dwells in this dimension for the majority of time, he doesn't have to age. If he stops or even dramatically slows down time enough he could literally have only aged a few days in the last 60 years.

Despite our different backgrounds and thought experiments, we managed to come to a similar conclusion . For the longest time I had theorized that Madara was something of a ghost (which I used to explain his Space-Time jutsu). While I now do not necessarily believe that Madara is a ghost, I do agree that Madara's eyes are possibly the only original part of the original Madara left, or something to that effect.

As to the general discussion of this thread, it seems very unlikely that an average Byakugan-user could defeat an average Sharingan-user.

(I wonder when Hunter will delete or move my post .)

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Spoiler for MS:

You are getting somewhere with that killer bee. The genjutsu on the eye does involve space/time controll, I don't think it is another dimension though, I believe it's something like oro's inner dimension. Madara uses space/time manipulation to teleport, kakashi uses it to teleport something to other dimensions. About amaterasu I highly doubt that it is something Itachi stored, since sasuke had it using his own eye to. What we don't know and would greatly help would be what powers does the ms give? I myself think amaterasu and tsukuyomi are the standard abilities for the MS. Then each user will, using the time/space manipulation skill, develop his own unique technique. And the EMS should grant you your power, that of your brothers eyes, of course the not going blind thing is cool, and controll over the biju.
That's just assumption no real proof.

[Killer Bee]

Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:

Originally Posted by james0246

Well, the "dimension" need not be an actual space. Specifically, it could simply be a mental dimension, a place that exists within this world and within the victims mind, but the MS allows the user to control said space resulting in the techniques we know as Tsukuyomi.

To put it another way, which makes more sense: the MS ripping open a dimensional hole and transporting a portion of a human mind into a different dimension; or the MS simply constructing an illusionary world inside the victims mind which the MS-user controls?

Its still a different dimension. And you are right, the tsukuyomi doesn't actually require "physical space", but the point here wasn't so much about what dimension was being manipulated. Only that one was in fact being manipulated. Like in X-Men, Professor X has done battle on the mental or astral plane many times. It is a different dimension or plane of existence. One where the Shadow King was able to survive and still harm others even after being killed in the physical world/realm.

Originally Posted by james0246

Honestly there need be nothing so complicated involved with Amaterasu as the fire coming from a "portal." This is a world in which fire can be blown out of a person's mouth, and you are questioning an eye having the ability to creating fire ?

Again, it is far more likely that the Amaterasu is simply what it looks like, a high intensity flame that the MS eye can produce simply by looking at something when the technique is activated. There need be nothing complicated about the mechanism for delivery (i.e. a "portal").

(Here is a possible theory for you: the left eye which Itachi used to produce Tsukuyomi could be used to inject Itachi's chakra into his victims mind (the technique "drills" into a specific area of the mind so that control can be gained of the mind effectively allowing Itachi to briefly control the mind), while the right eye that produces Amaterasu could be used to "coat" all that Itachi can see with his chakra, that then combusts (Specifically, Itachi's chakra is probably used as a "fuel" coating all that the eye can see (much the same as lighter fluid on a log/charcoal), and then the chakra is set aflame and stays burning for a sufficient period of time).)

There is no evidence that a Uchiha can produce amaterasu. More so, the fact that we know Itachi gave amaterasu to Sasuke reinforces my theory. There would have been no need to do so if Sasuke had his own. Yes, some ninja can blow fire and use fire element jutsu, but none have EVER produced a black flame capable of burning a hole through the toad stomach jutsu, or one capable of burning for seven days and nights. Amaterasu is extremely rare, and so far nothing you've ever written explains where it came from or how its produced. There isn't a clear logical explanation for an Uchiha to have it, so I guess this is just a little bit of devil's advocate showing its ugly head.

Originally Posted by james0246

There is no evidence to suggest that the Yata Mirror or Totsuka Sword are always part of Susanoo (and of course the mirror and sword pre-date Itachi), or would always appear when an MS-user creates Susanoo (it has been mostly confirmed that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are MS techniques that all Uchiha MS-users can use, so it is possible that Susanoo is the same). In fact, since they are considered legendary items, and MS has only existed for 50 or so years (since the time of Madara), I seriously doubt that the items could have developed their singular reputation if they had only been around for 50 years, and were always controlled by the Uchiha. Specifically, Orochimaru only knew of the Totsuka sword as a singular entity (not controlled by any clan, nor always grouped with the Yata mirror), but if the sword could only be used with/summoned by Susanoo, then Orochimaru should have known that the sword was part of Susanoo. Since Orochimaru did not know that the sword was part of a larger technique (otherwise he would have not searched for it), and he, and Zetsu, knew the sword as a legendary item, it is far more likely that Itachi simply incorporated the Sword and Mirror into his Susanoo technique (Additionally, it does not make sense for the weapons to have only existed within a separate dimension because otherwise they would have never reached their level of prominence within the normal world).

I don't know how you got what you got from reading what I wrote. Your reply doesn't even come close to addressing what I wrote. I never said that the sword and mirror came to be or exists through or because of the MS. They are indeed ancient relics of legendary power. What I did say was that Itachi sought out those items and sealed them in his pocket dimension. I also went on to theorize that MS techniques like amaterasu and suasnoo may not be jutsu at all, but rather its about what powerful items a MS user can seek out and use later by releasing them from said pocket dimension when the need arises. What difference does their reputation make when all Itachi had to do was seal them in his own dimension 10 years ago? They clearly aren't MS created items, which means MS users can seal useful items that they wish to keep from others in their own personal dimension and use them at will. All that other stuff you replied with wasn't in contention or even on topic.

The dimension theory is supported not only by the fact that Susanoo wields artifacts that clearly existed in the physical world before Itachi was even born, but by the fact that Kakashi has learned how to manipulate a rift in the MS dimension and has used it to displace the explosion created by Deidara.

Originally Posted by james0246

Despite our different backgrounds and thought experiments, we managed to come to a similar conclusion . For the longest time I had theorized that Madara was something of a ghost (which I used to explain his Space-Time jutsu). While I now do not necessarily believe that Madara is a ghost, I do agree that Madara's eyes are possibly the only original part of the original Madara left, or something to that effect.

Maybe he is, and maybe he isn't. I have no theory or fact to support Madara being a "ghost", but IMO my theory is more palatable. I'd believe that Madara could phase to intangibility before I'd believe that he was a ghost though. But I've been wrong before.

I believe that his eyes live on and he is either a Sasori type character, or he hasn't aged at all because the EMS allows a user to travel to the pocket dimension where they control time and space. If Madara dwells in this dimension for the majority of time, he doesn't have to age.

I believe that EMS grants the user more precise control over the rift to the MS dimension, which allows him to not only enter the dimension and reappear elsewhere ala Nightcrawler, but it also allows him to create portals at the point of impact where jutsu like rasengan would have killed him.

Originally Posted by james0246

As to the general discussion of this thread, it seems very unlikely that an average Byakugan-user could defeat an average Sharingan-user.

The average sharingan user has no advantages over a byakugan user. The average sharingan user only has genjutsu, which would have little effect over a Hyuuga, and copy cat abilities, which would be useless against a kekkei genkai.

It should be noted that the average byakugan, which belongs to the branch house, is only average because of politics, not because of his god given talent or lack thereof. Neji was considered a genius only because of what he accomplished DESPITE being held back by Hyuuga politics and the segregation of the houses. If all were allowed to grow naturally like Uchiha were, then all Hyuuga would know the soft fist as all Uchiha knew fire elemental jutsu.

If we're talking typical user here, it would have to go to the Uchiha because the typical Hyuuga hold their own clan members back for their own reasons. If we're talking about what would happen if that weren't so I'd give it to the Hyuuga who are more skilled and formidable until the Uchiha start throwing in the MS and EMS.

Originally Posted by Kenshin Uchiha

You are getting somewhere with that killer bee. The genjutsu on the eye does involve space/time controll, I don't think it is another dimension though, I believe it's something like oro's inner dimension. Madara uses space/time manipulation to teleport, kakashi uses it to teleport something to other dimensions. About amaterasu I highly doubt that it is something Itachi stored, since sasuke had it using his own eye to. What we don't know and would greatly help would be what powers does the ms give? I myself think amaterasu and tsukuyomi are the standard abilities for the MS. Then each user will, using the time/space manipulation skill, develop his own unique technique. And the EMS should grant you your power, that of your brothers eyes, of course the not going blind thing is cool, and controll over the biju.
That's just assumption no real proof.

Spoiler for Origin of Amaterasu:

Well, I kinda disagree. We have no proof that amaterasu is standard. We've only seen one Uchiha perform it at a time. First Itachi, then once he died and bestowed it upon Sasuke, we saw Sasuke perform it. And let's not pretend that Itachi can't bestow power upon people because WE ALL KNOW he gave Naruto some of his power as well.

Itachi is rare in that he's one of the only characters that can bestow his own power to someone else and effectively augment their abilities. I believe that Itachi bestowed amaterasu to Sasuke and nothing less. Its what Itachi uniquely does: Bestows power to those who he feels will need it in the scheme of the future. Itachi bestowed amaterasu to help Sasuke defend himself against Madara so that he can live long enough to choose the right path, and he bestowed some unknown power to Naruto in case Sasuke decides to choose the wrong path for whatever reason.

Whatever the deal is, I believe that Itachi just wanted Sasuke to be free ... from Konoha, Orochimaro and Madara ... to choose his own destiny. The only way he could do that and buy Sasuke the necessary time to do all that is by giving Sasuke his most powerful offensive power.

As far as amaterasu's origin goes: The goddess amaterasu, who came from her parent Izanagi's left eye, sealed herself in the "Heavenly Cave" and never came out until she was coerced by others to do so.

Now some may still disagree, but the similarities are undeniable. The goddess Amaterasu wasn't born in that cave where she was eventually sealed, but she didn't come out without coersion. Now I believe that the significance of that part of the myth is that the jutsu amaterasu wasn't born from the mangekyo sharigan, but was sealed there in the "Heavenly Cave"(which is the dimension that the MS opens)and is only released when a MS user who already has it wills it to, just like in the mythology. No matter what arguments ensue because of this theory, you can't get around the fact that we've never seen amaterasu used by two different MS users to date. It has seemingly been passed to another.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

But generally the sof fist style isn't that strong by itself, look at the power hinata had, I'm pretty sure the sharingan's prediction ability could see the attacks coming, neji is an exception.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

But generally the sof fist style isn't that strong by itself, look at the power hinata had, I'm pretty sure the sharingan's prediction ability could see the attacks coming, neji is an exception.

Hinata was going toe to toe with Neji, who was probably one of the strongest genin in the exams. Don't confuse Hinata's shyness with weakness. The soft fist combined with the byakugan is extremely powerful.

And as I pointed out, Neji is only considered a genius because of his immense development despite the road blocks that the Main Branch of Hyuuga put in his way. He may have a stronger potential, but he isn't the strongest of the Hyuuga yet either.

Kishi puposely didn't let us see what someone like Hinata could do against Sasuke. Sasuke usually loses until he's had experience with a fighter and lets his sharingan get an eyeful of what the person can do, and it would have ruined the story if Sasuke lost at that point. Keep in mind also that with soft fist you don't have to actually make contact to close points. What would Sasuke's sharingan have him do? He doesn't understand soft fist, and even if he memorizes the movements he won't know to block them because the strikes don't cause pain until its already too late.

Once his sharingan is sealed off, Sasuke's going to have big problems.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Spoiler for MS and stuff:

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Hinata was going toe to toe with Neji, who was probably one of the strongest genin in the exams. Don't confuse Hinata's shyness with weakness. The soft fist combined with the byakugan is extremely powerful.

And as I pointed out, Neji is only considered a genius because of his immense development despite the road blocks that the Main Branch of Hyuuga put in his way. He may have a stronger potential, but he isn't the strongest of the Hyuuga yet either.

Kishi puposely didn't let us see what someone like Hinata could do against Sasuke. Sasuke usually loses until he's had experience with a fighter and lets his sharingan get an eyeful of what the person can do, and it would have ruined the story if Sasuke lost at that point. Keep in mind also that with soft fist you don't have to actually make contact to close points. What would Sasuke's sharingan have him do? He doesn't understand soft fist, and even if he memorizes the movements he won't know to block them because the strikes don't cause pain until its already too late.

Once his sharingan is sealed off, Sasuke's going to have big problems.

He was fooling with her, that is a known fact, neji is a prodigy, his byakugan can see points other users byakugans can't, hinata is from the main branch and she can't. And again he is a genius with the soft fist style, but same can be said about sasuke and itachi and other ms. So it would be best to compare sharingan without ms and byakugan withou the ability to see the smaller points, since both are extreme cases.


About amaterasu, it is a known fact (it is well explained in the manga) that itachi only gave sasuke his amaterasu as a trap to kill madara, the amaterasu sasuke used in further episodes has nothing to do with itachi's. So there goes your argument.
Though you can put that hipotheses, it wasn't said nowhere he couldn't have done so.

About the origin of it, amaterasu is sealed inside the left eye, but you can't assume it was itachi who sealed it and that it isn't part of the bloodline, we don't know if madara can use it or not either. And we have seen two different MS use it, itachi's and sasuke's

[Killer Bee]

Spoiler for Amaterasu:

I simply meant that we've never seen two MS users use amaterasu at the same time to say that each person has their own. That in itself dispels any ideas about my argument going by the wayside.

Itachi giving Sasuke amaterasu is well explained and its widely understood as such:

"There it is revealed that Itachi transferred his Mangekyo Sharingan techniques to Sasuke with Amaterasu set to activate when it saw Madara's Sharingan." - Narutopedia

I'm just waiting for some Naruto snob who consideres himself "elite" to show up and say "OMG" and sigh. Then go on and on as to why Narutopedia isn't a credible source even though they cite their facts from both the manga and anime.

Itachi gave Sasuke his techniques INCLUDING amaterasu. - Fact

Sasuke had NO MANGEKYO SHARINGAN OR ITS TECHNIQUES before Itachi gave it to him. - Fact

Sasuke used amaterasu that didn't come from Itachi. -Speculation

I'm very aware that Sasuke awakened his own MS later on, but that's STILL no proof that he would have had amaterasu on his own.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Spoiler:

I simply meant that we've never seen two MS users use amaterasu at the same time to say that each person has their own. That in itself dispels any ideas about my argument going by the wayside.

Itachi giving Sasuke amaterasu is well explained and its widely understood as such:



I'm just waiting for some Naruto snob who consideres himself "elite" to show up and say "OMG" and sigh. Then go on and on as to why Narutopedia isn't a credible source even though they cite their facts from both the manga and anime..

Spoiler:

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sigh.........Narutopedia inst a credible source....

Well in perspective, Narutopedia inst incorrect, neither the quote is saying that The Amaterasu that Sasuke used against Killer Bee was the same he received from Itachi, the quote say:

There it is revealed that Itachi transferred his Mangekyo Sharingan techniques to Sasuke with Amaterasu set to activate when it saw Madara's Sharingan

So, its really not saying that the Other Amaterasu was the same he received from Itachi.

But, My point here also is that we do know little if another two MS could share the same Jutsu or not, you said that only Itachi has been shown doing so, but really how many Uchihas MS user have you seen in action?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

(I wonder when Hunter will delete or move my post .)

Speculations about the Sharingan belong to this thread so there is no reason for that.

-Anyway, it is stated in the Databook that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are techniques that have been known within the Uchiha clan (which doesn't mean however all MS users were able to use them both) and are not jutsu specific to Itachi.

Spoiler:

And It is apparently the case for Susano as well which can be used by those who have already mastered these two jutsu.
Also Itachi didn't "give" Sasuke Amaterasu, he "gave" him the MS as in he put in motion the circumstances necessary for Sasuke to awaken his own : his own death by "Sasuke hands".

It should be noted that the average byakugan, which belongs to the branch house, is only average because of politics, not because of his god given talent or lack thereof. Neji was considered a genius only because of what he accomplished DESPITE being held back by Hyuuga politics and the segregation of the houses.

This is entirely false, Neji was called a genius because he is vastly supperior to others Hyuga both in skills and inherited power. A regular Hyuga cannot see the Tenkentsu to begin with and they wouldn't have the skill to use them effectively in battle even if they could. That is why Neji was called a genius among others things.

-Hinata didn't go toe to toe against Neji. He played with her, sealed her chakra without her even noticing and did so while keeping secret the real depth of his skills. Hinata was weak, her 7 years old sister was better than her which is why her father wanted Hinta out.
I'm not even going to comment about Hinata being a match for Sasuke. When biais comes so far there is nothing more to say and it's off topic anyway.
Oh and the Gentle Fist does require contact if only a gentle one, hence the name.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

But with sharingan it’s different. We see very little complementing jutsus for it, except for the Uchihas’ favorite katon jutsu.

There's no specific method of fighting based on Sharingan but it can complement certain jutsu, such as chidori which Kakashi needed Sharingan to avoid a counterattack while using it.

The sharingan’s main weaknesses are that it can’t imitate jutsus that are based on other kekkei genkai and it can’t keep up with certain taijutsu attacks. Yet we haven’t seen any real Uchiha jutsu to solve these weaknesses, all we got was mangekyou sharingan and it’s hardly a solution since not every sharingan user can possess such a highly evolved ability.

Those aren't really weaknesses insomuch that all shinobi have these vulnerabilities. Fighting a speedster or bloodline user, a ninja will still be better off having Sharingan, but Sharingan won't solve all the problems they'll encounter fighting opponents like these. Sharingan's only really drawbacks are that it costs chakra to use, and causes eventual blindness (MS)

But usually when you say a certain ability evolves into something else, it’s basically just an upgraded version of the original. I can understand why Itachi’s sharingan could evolve into tsukuyomi since sharingan can wield certain genjutsus. But amaterasu is a bit off for me. Where did that incredible fire power come from?

Uchiha clan are famous for using fire element right?

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

If we're talking typical user here, it would have to go to the Uchiha because the typical Hyuuga hold their own clan members back for their own reasons. If we're talking about what would happen if that weren't so I'd give it to the Hyuuga who are more skilled and formidable until the Uchiha start throwing in the MS and EMS.

Despite the fact that only a handful of Uchiha have ever achieved MS in the clan's entire history

Spoiler for manga:

and that they were the only rivals to the Senju even before MS was discovered?

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Spoiler for Big ass quote:

Speculations about the Sharingan belong to this thread so there is no reason for that.

-Anyway, it is stated in the Databook that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are techniques that have been known within the Uchiha clan (which doesn't mean however all MS users were able to use them both) and are not jutsu specific to Itachi.

Spoiler:

And It is apparently the case for Susano as well which can be used by those who have already mastered these two jutsu.
Also Itachi didn't "give" Sasuke Amaterasu, he "gave" him the MS as in he put in motion the circumstances necessary for Sasuke to awaken his own : his own death by "Sasuke hands".

This is entirely false, Neji was called a genius because he is vastly supperior to others Hyuga both in skills and inherited power. A regular Hyuga cannot see the Tenkentsu to begin with and they wouldn't have the skill to use them effectively in battle even if they could. That is why Neji was called a genius among others things.

-Hinata didn't go toe to toe against Neji. He played with her, sealed her chakra without her even noticing and did so while keeping secret the real depth of his skills. Hinata was weak, her 7 years old sister was better than her which is why her father wanted Hinta out.
I'm not even going to comment about Hinata being a match for Sasuke. When biais comes so far there is nothing more to say and it's off topic anyway.
Oh and the Gentle Fist does require contact if only a gentle one, hence the name.

So it wasn't my imagination

Spoiler for manga:

Killer Bee, unless that info about the transfer is on the databooks, the person who wrote that in Narutopedia is wrong, nowhere was it said that itachi did more than plant the amaterasu trap on sasuke, on the contrary. It's like giving a quote from the wikipedia and acclaiming it as a fact

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oh and the Gentle Fist does require contact if only a gentle one, hence the name.

Maybe, but grazing hits are still enough to seal chakra points, which is one of the many reasons why Gentle Fist style is so deadly.

I might also make the point that in a fight between Sharingan vs. Byakugan, if a Byakugan user can in fact manage to seal up enough chakra points, the Sharingan would be deactivated. Though that in itself doesn't necessarily mean victory, I still think in a close-range fight, Byakugan user holds the advantage. Despite the Sharingan's ability to predict attacks, being able to see and being able to dodge an attack are two different things. And it has to be dodging because you can't block Gentle Fist style without taking damage and getting chakra points sealed.

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

So it wasn't my imagination

Spoiler for manga:

Killer Bee, unless that info about the transfer is on the databooks, the person who wrote that in Narutopedia is wrong, nowhere was it said that itachi did more than plant the amaterasu trap on sasuke, on the contrary. It's like giving a quote from the wikipedia and acclaiming it as a fact

Spoiler for manga:

I have to agree with this. We don't know 100% if Amaterasu is inherent or not, but it is more likely that it is a technique that can be naturally used by the MS, and is inherent to that doujutsu. It seems more likely that Itachi merely made Sasuke's Amaterasu attack Madara when he saw his Sharingan, rather than transferring the technique itself. It is also extremely likely that Madara can use Amaterasu because he was able to put out the flames so easily when Itachi's trap was activated, which infers that he knows how Amaterasu works, suggesting that he can use it as well. Now I don't know that for certain, but it makes sense since he was the first person to unlock the MS.

And some of you were discussing it earlier, but I don't think Madara is a ghost or anything like that. I mean, he's not THAT old. He's probably approahing Sandaime Hokage's age or Jiraiya/Tsunade/Orochimaru's age. But back to what I was saying, I think his ability to seemingly avoid attacks without having to doge is merely and advanced technique he developed over his years of experience with the Sharingan and MS. It's entirely possible that it is an advanced time-space jutsu that he uses. Either that or he pulls a Goku and is just so uber-fast that he looks like he's not moving.

Edit: And although this is a bit off-topic, I think that we should create a new thread (something like Byakugan vs. Sharingan vs. Rinnegan) to include the Rinnegan in the discussion. Even though we haven't seen too much of the Rinnegan's true powers and we know for certain even less, what we have seen is incredibly impressive, and I think we should consider having discussions and speculation about it.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

Spoiler for manga:

I have to agree with this. We don't know 100% if Amaterasu is inherent or not, but it is more likely that it is a technique that can be naturally used by the MS, and is inherent to that doujutsu. It seems more likely that Itachi merely made Sasuke's Amaterasu attack Madara when he saw his Sharingan, rather than transferring the technique itself. It is also extremely likely that Madara can use Amaterasu because he was able to put out the flames so easily when Itachi's trap was activated, which infers that he knows how Amaterasu works, suggesting that he can use it as well. Now I don't know that for certain, but it makes sense since he was the first person to unlock the MS.

And some of you were discussing it earlier, but I don't think Madara is a ghost or anything like that. I mean, he's not THAT old. He's probably approahing Sandaime Hokage's age or Jiraiya/Tsunade/Orochimaru's age. But back to what I was saying, I think his ability to seemingly avoid attacks without having to doge is merely and advanced technique he developed over his years of experience with the Sharingan and MS. It's entirely possible that it is an advanced time-space jutsu that he uses. Either that or he pulls a Goku and is just so uber-fast that he looks like he's not moving.

Edit: And although this is a bit off-topic, I think that we should create a new thread (something like Byakugan vs. Sharingan vs. Rinnegan) to include the Rinnegan in the discussion. Even though we haven't seen too much of the Rinnegan's true powers and we know for certain even less, what we have seen is incredibly impressive, and I think we should consider having discussions and speculation about it.

Spoiler for manga:

He made his own amaterasu attack madara on sight, you can tell by the difference of the MS shape.
Madara is that old, he was living during the same period the 1st hokage was so yeah he is really old.

[Killer Bee]

Spoiler for stuff:

First off, there is no hard evidence that amaterasu is native to any Uchiha.

Second, there is no proof that Itachi didn't give Sasuke his amaterasu as well as other jutsu.

Third, we've never seen more than one Uchiha use the amaterasu at a time. Whenever amaterasu has been used, only one person who possesses the MS has demonstrated its use. So we have no idea as to whether every MS has amaterasu.

Fourth, even if the amaterasu jutsu was known in the data book doesn't mean more than one person could have it at a time. Those two issues are not the same.

Fifth, this really wasn't about amaterasu. It was about what I think the MS can really do. The reason that I even theorized that amaterasu might have been a found item as opposed to a developed one is because we were discussing how amaterasu even came to be. It was stated that the MS is really just an upgrade, so it doesn't make sense how an Uchiha could create black fire that would burn for 7 day and nights. Its clear that the Totsuka sword and Yata mirror are found items that have been stored in the dimension that I discussed. So it wasn't a stretch of the imagination that amaterasu, a jutsu that none of you can manage to explain even with the data book, was a found item. Its still not impossible. Nothing has been presented that disproves the theory, or even makes it any less likely.

All any of you have been able to argue but still not prove is that Itachi didn't actually give Sasuke his amaterasu, which really wasn't the point in contention. I still believe that Itachi gave it to Sasuke, but I don't read data books. But still, nothing presented, even from the data book has made any points. Just that the amaterasu was known among the clan. That's no big deal.

Originally Posted by Hunter

When biais comes so far there is nothing more to say and it's off topic anyway.

Nothing I wrote was bias. You need to get a grip. I know you're Mr mod and all but my opinion of what hinata may or may not be able to do if she overcame her shyness and actually applied herself is perfectly fine. She showed she was capable of lots of growth in the anime filler, which is fine to speak about here because THIS AINT A MANGA TOPIC. What I wrote had less to do with Sasuke and more to do with what I thought the girl might be capable of. After all this anime is all about so-called under-achievers being able to compete with so-called geniuses.

Or maybe it isn't and only you know about it because its found in the data book.

[Kenshin_Uchiha]

Dude you live in a world of your own lol no offense.

What is stated in the data books is fact, and the way it is written the possibility of it being an ability you pass down is kind of farfetched. Maybe it is an item stored in another dimension, it's pure speculation, not to irrealistic though. No we don't know that every MS user has amaterasu, read hunters original post he said it to.

MS is an upgrade? yes it is an upgrade, what rules it has to follow? wathever rulles kishimoto wants. Why can't a more powerfull fire evolve from fire now that we are at it?

It is clear that they are items, yet where they are stored is unclear, again speculation though I mostly agree with you on that one.

No it isn't impossible, though it wasn't Itachi that stored it for sure, and it is still a big stretch.


Again anime fillers have no real relation with the storyline, maybe hinata has potential, but one more time it's just suposition.

[james0246]

Spoiler for Manga Spoilers:

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Sasuke used amaterasu that didn't come from Itachi. -Speculation

I'm very aware that Sasuke awakened his own MS later on, but that's STILL no proof that he would have had amaterasu on his own.

This is more or less a fact, rather than speculation. The Amaterasu that Sasuke produces comes from his own MS eye (as we can tell from the different eye design). If Kishimoto wanted to convey that Sasuke simply had Itachi's abilities, then Sasuke would only have Itachi's MS eye design (as we saw with the singular Amaterasu that was launched against Madara). But, since the recent Amaterasu came from Sasuke MS design, then it follows that the Amaterasu used in the Kira Bi fight was derived solely from Sasuke's MS ability (this is also strongly supported by the fact that Sasuke can control the level of the Amaterasu, something that Itachi had no power to do).

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Its still a different dimension. And you are right, the tsukuyomi doesn't actually require "physical space", but the point here wasn't so much about what dimension was being manipulated. Only that one was in fact being manipulated. Like in X-Men, Professor X has done battle on the mental or astral plane many times. It is a different dimension or plane of existence. One where the Shadow King was able to survive and still harm others even after being killed in the physical world/realm.

But, if it is only in the mind, then it is not an actual separate dimension, rather it is a facsimile of separation, an illusionary construct that is used to imply separation, so that the mind for a brief time is not in control of itself. The Yamanaka Clan (or whatever Ino's family name is) Jutsus have a similar function, but since Ino's clan takes direct control, the mental space that their victim is enclosed in is controlled in real-time as opposed to the illusion of time that Itachi uses.

To put it another way, Tsukuyomi is not a time-space ninjutsu, it is the highest form of genjutsu, nothing more and nothing less. There is no need to confuse the matter by bringing up concepts such as an astral plane or anything along those lines. To use a counter example, why can't the Tsukuyomi simply be similar to the character Matt Parkman from the show Heroes who has the ability to go in and force the mind to believe whatever he wants it to believe (which is more or less what genjutsu does).

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

There is no evidence that a Uchiha can produce amaterasu.

Besides the fact that the technique is known by Madara, which consequently means other Uchihas could use the technique in the past. Added to that, the description of the technique places it as a Uchiha clan secret. So, there is quite abit of evidence to support the claim that other Uchihas can produce the Amaterasu flame and are the only ones who can produce such a flame.

Added to all of this is the fact that the technique clearly comes from a specific eye, which, unless your theory argues that the individual eyes see seperate dimensions (whihc further complicates your idea), then the flame is only produced by the one eye, and the damage the eye retains comes about from the production of the black flame. In fact, your theory does not adequatly explin the eye decay nor the life decay that the MS takes from the user. Specifically, if the MS merely opens the doorway, then why does opening the doorway affect the user. It is far more likely that the user creates the flames, which leads to direct injury, rather than the user gains injuries from opening the portal.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

More so, the fact that we know Itachi gave amaterasu to Sasuke reinforces my theory. There would have been no need to do so if Sasuke had his own.

Not only did Sasuke not have the ability of MS at the time, the sealed Amaterasu was never meant to be used for anything except a last line of defense against Madara. So, Itachi sealing Amaterasu proves nothing except that Itachi did love his brother, and that Itachi thought he might be able to surprise Madara.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Yes, some ninja can blow fire and use fire element jutsu, but none have EVER produced a black flame capable of burning a hole through the toad stomach jutsu, or one capable of burning for seven days and nights. Amaterasu is extremely rare, and so far nothing you've ever written explains where it came from or how its produced. There isn't a clear logical explanation for an Uchiha to have it, so I guess this is just a little bit of devil's advocate showing its ugly head.

But, in the end, it is the same thing. If we as an audience are willing to accept that a person can blow fire out of their mouth, or control the wind, or move the earth, etc, with just a few finger movements (as well as elemental manipulation, but that cannot truly be visualized), then why is it suddenly impossible for a specialized black flame attack to appear from a known powerful bloodline. Yes, there is no clear explanation as to why an Uchiha's MS can create such an ability, and hopefully Kishimoto will explain it more fully in the future, but the idea that some weird interdimensional portal is required seems quite far-fetched. Generally the simplest answers will be correct, and your theory is far from simple.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I don't know how you got what you got from reading what I wrote. Your reply doesn't even come close to addressing what I wrote. ...

I apologise, I clearly misread your post. I can only blame my misconception on the fact that I was tired, and conseuqently went to bed almost immediately after I posted my reply, without properly reviewing what I had posted.

That being said, again, I cannot help but feel that you are complicating the matter. Orochimaru has his Kusanagi Sword sealed within his stomach; Sasuke has multiple weapons sealed on various parts of his arms; so what is to stop Itachi from simply sealing the Sword and Mirror somewhere on his body, and then when he uses Susanoo, unseal the weapons, so that Susanoo becomes much more powerful (otherwise Susanoo is merely a chakra construct that acts as a basic barrier). So, there need be no pocket dimensions that the MS allows the user to open or close at their own discretion, the Susanoo is just what it looks like, a giant chakra construct that Itachi uses in conjunction with two powerful items (since the items are said to be unuseable by human hands, using the Susanoo to hold them only makes sense).

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

The dimension theory is supported not only by the fact that Susanoo wields artifacts that clearly existed in the physical world before Itachi was even born, but by the fact that Kakashi has learned how to manipulate a rift in the MS dimension and has used it to displace the explosion created by Deidara.

Not really. We already know of a classification of ninjutsu known as Space-Time ninjutsu in which specific jutsus are used to transport matter or material across great distances. Kakashi's Kamui seems to fall nicely under said classification. Added to that, the description of the technique implies that the transported material that the vortex sucks in appears in another location not necessarily a separate or pocket dimension. But, I will say that of all the MS abilities we have seen thus far, Kamui is the only one that actually can be argued using your theory. In fact, I would guess that you started with Kakashi's technique as the basis for your theory, and then worked your way back to include the other MS abilities.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

First off, there is no hard evidence that amaterasu is native to any Uchiha.

Amaterasu is only ever identified as an Uchiha clan secret technique. In no description of the technique is it ever listed as being anything but an Uchiha technique. So, only Uchiha's can use Amaterasu and Amaterasu only comes from Uchihas.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Second, there is no proof that Itachi didn't give Sasuke his amaterasu as well as other jutsu.

Sure there is proof, we know the name of the technique that Itachi used to implant an Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye. Specifically, the technique is known as Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu ~ Transcirption Seal: Amaterasu. Itachi only sealed an Amaterasu technique as a failsafe plan against Madara should he ever appear before Sasuke. No other techniques were sealed along with Amaterasu, it was a mistranslation on part of one of the translators that gave the false impression that Itachi sealed all of his techniques into Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Third, we've never seen more than one Uchiha use the amaterasu at a time. Whenever amaterasu has been used, only one person who possesses the MS has demonstrated its use. So we have no idea as to whether every MS has amaterasu.

We have never seen two Uchiha MS-users fight, so your point does not make much sense. For instance, to give a simplistc example, I would never claim that only one human can use Senjutsu at a time, even if I have never seen two humans use Senjutsu at the same time.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Fourth, even if the amaterasu jutsu was known in the data book doesn't mean more than one person could have it at a time. Those two issues are not the same.

Yeah but they are pretty damn close. If you see two individuals with the same basic abilities (in this case MS) use a special power at separate times (they are not fighting against each other, so we cannot compare the use of the technique in battle), the first assumption isn't that the power can only be used by one person at a time, no the first assumption is that anyone that meets the similar requirements can use the ability. So far the assumption that all Uchiha's with MS can use Amaterasu has far greater credence than the assumption that the technique can only be used by one at a time.

In the end, you have talked about, in many threads, the MS being too powerful, so why are you trying to make it even more powerful by giving the doujutsu the ability to open dimensional portals to other realms of existence. Why can't Tsukuyomi simply be the best genjutsu? Why can't the Amaterasu simply be a Superman-esque destructo-beam that destroys everything in contact? Why can't Susanoo simply be a chakra construct with basic uses in defense and offense, that Itachi suped up by using legendary artifacts? Until you adequatly explain why the MS actually needs interdimensional gateway/portal abilities to work, I see no reason to believe your theory over the common coneption that the MS simply does what it does (i.e. the aforementioned questions).

[ronin myael]

Whoa! Info overload! I only meant to ask some questions about the supposed "inconsistencies" I noticed from the sharingan and I got this?

Amaterasu is this inextinguishable black fire that shoots out from one's eyes, it's kind of different from the Uchiha's katon jutsu (at least for me) although I do see the connection there. Katon jutsu is not exclusive to the Uchiha though, almost anyone who have fire element affinity can perform this. Sharingan has always reminded me of a psychic ability since it "sees through" almost everything and it has the power to wield powerful genjutsus which is really a kind of hypnosis.

Tsukuyomi made sense to me since its main power is to trap a person into his own personal hell to be tortured and eventually killed. It's a cruel power and it requires very little physical contact if not at all. So I guess you could say that tsukuyomi and the sharingan in general is not a physical ability but a mental one. Amaterasu, on the other hand, is like your average ninjutsu which is similar to wielding elements and these type of ninjutsus are usually done with hand seals. Amaterasu requires none of this, you simply stare and shoot. It's a power that is supposed to come from sharingan which is generally a mental ability and yet amaterasu's flames are physical and not some imagined fire. When you're hit with it, it really burns, your mind doesn't simply make you think that it does like tsukuyomi does.

There's no specific method of fighting based on Sharingan but it can complement certain jutsu, such as chidori which Kakashi needed Sharingan to avoid a counterattack while using it.

That's just it, sharingan doesn't have complementing jutsus. The Uchiha didn't exactly develop sharingan to make it more formidable unlike the Hyuuga with their byakugan. But in fact they relied on it and its abilities too much. That's why people like Zabuza and Deidara used to demean sharingan because it's an ability that is inherited, you don't earn it through extensive training. It relies on its copying abilities quite heavily, meaning most sharingan users are simply just copycats, they don't have their own original jutsu. Of course this only applies to the average sharingan not MS.

Kakashi is different, he's not an Uchiha and he knows he can't always rely on the sharingan that's why he developed Chidori. I think he might be the only sharingan user who developed a jutsu to complement the sharingan.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

Kakashi is different, he's not an Uchiha and he knows he can't always rely on the sharingan that's why he developed Chidori. I think he might be the only sharingan user who developed a jutsu to complement the sharingan.

Well, actually he received his Sharingan AFTER he developed Chidori/Raikiri. The main problem with Raikiri is that it is an attack that is executed at such a high speed that dodging a counterattack is impossible for normal eyesight. Therefore he knew the technique, but couldn't use it until after he got the Sharingan.

Spoiler for Manga:

Obito gave Kakashi his eye as he was dying in the Kakashi Gaiden arc, thus allowing Kakashi to complete his Raikiri technique, which prior to receiving the Sharingan could be considered "incomplete".

[Killer Bee]

Spoiler for ahem:

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

Dude you live in a world of your own lol no offense.

I'd rather be a shepard than sheep, bro.

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

What is stated in the data books is fact, and the way it is written the possibility of it being an ability you pass down is kind of farfetched. Maybe it is an item stored in another dimension, it's pure speculation, not to irrealistic though. No we don't know that every MS user has amaterasu, read hunters original post he said it to.

You say its far fetched, yet not unrealistic. What criteria did that theory meet to make it far fetched? Ummm ... Kakashi can open a rift to said dimension. Susanoo wields items that existed in this world way before Itachi was born, yet when he disappears, so do the items. Where do they go? Since you called my theory far fetched, I'm sure you have a much more feasible explanation.

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

MS is an upgrade? yes it is an upgrade, what rules it has to follow? wathever rulles kishimoto wants. Why can't a more powerfull fire evolve from fire now that we are at it?

Yes, it is an upgrade. And if any rules are possible, how in the hell an you call something far fetched? I'm only theorizing by the rules and story that Kishi has already set forth. You may not agree with my theory, but at least it doesn't contradict itself.

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

It is clear that they are items, yet where they are stored is unclear, again speculation though I mostly agree with you on that one.

No it isn't impossible, though it wasn't Itachi that stored it for sure, and it is still a big stretch.

Again, where is the stretch? Calling something a stretch "just because" doesn't cut it. In fact, the way I originally wrote about this a couple of posts ago is quite cohesive with the story.

The anime/Kishi says a lot of things that don't add up ... like calling teleportation high speed movement. Its not. High speed movement is well ... high speed movement. Teleportation involves instantaneous transport. High speed movement, even at the speed of light, still takes time. It takes 8 minutes for the light from the sun to reach Earth, so that is high speed movement, not teleportation, and it still leaves a trail of having been there. Yet do any of you call that far fetched? No. Its a freakin comic book/anime. But some things should still make sense.

To sum up:

So we have Kakashi opening a rift to another dimension with Kamui. We know this because the force of the explosion had to go somewhere or else it would have killed the Leaf Ninja.

We have susanoo taking with him earthly items that are unlike his ghost-like form when he leaves, otherwise the items would have been found at the site of Sasuke and Itachi's fight, right? There were no items found at the site, at least according to the manga.

And we have further proof that pocket dimensions exist ala Orochimaro's dimension where he performs his soul transfer. Its very possible that Oro learned about those pocket dimensions as a member of Akatsuki. After all, Oro was only about learning powerful jutsu. Who better than S-ranked Akatsuki to learn from?

Not to mention the fact that Madara was able to completely disappear after being enveloped by Shino's chakra sensing bugs, and left no trail for them to follow in any direction. As Kakashi states, even if he were super fast he would have left a trail had he gone in any one direction. How does one simply vanish? Earlier I alluded to Nightcrawler for the X-Men comics. When he teleports he instantly vanishes and enters another dimension where the laws of time and space are very different than our own, and then exits through another portal that places him in his desired location. Same principle.

Is it far fetched, or are some simply short sighted?

Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha

Again anime fillers have no real relation with the storyline, maybe hinata has potential, but one more time it's just suposition.

Maybe not to you. They exists, even if outside the canon of the manga. We got a glimpse that Hinata desires to improve and in fact she did. It wasn't made by fans, so while it may not be in line with manga, its still official. This doesn't mean that she could take Sasuke, but I believe that if she had the same resolve in the chunnin exams that she had in the filler she would have given Sasuke a run for his money. That's actually what I meant, but obviously didn't write.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

Well, actually he received his Sharingan AFTER he developed Chidori/Raikiri. The main problem with Raikiri is that it is an attack that is executed at such a high speed that dodging a counterattack is impossible for normal eyesight. Therefore he knew the technique, but couldn't use it until after he got the Sharingan.

Spoiler for Manga:

Obito gave Kakashi his eye as he was dying in the Kakashi Gaiden arc, thus allowing Kakashi to complete his Raikiri technique, which prior to receiving the Sharingan could be considered "incomplete".

Spoiler for Kakashi:

Really? I'll have to go back to that one. As far as I could remember he developed chidori because he couldn't forge his lightning element to rasengan, correct me if I'm wrong. I believe rasengan was the inspiration for chidori and he later perfected it with his transplanted sharingan. Still, it's quite remarkable what Kakashi did with a "borrowed" sharingan. He even awakened his own MS. For a non-Uchiha that's quite a feat.