Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Also, didn't Danzo say that Sai is undoubtedly the strongest or best of his generation? How does that play into the discussion?

Unknown. Besides some nifty oil paintings, Sai has never shown anything that impressive (not that his ink techniques aren't impressive, they just seem kind of pointless (save for his ability to fly, that is an extremely powerful ability)). He was supposed to be able to assassinate Sasuke, but he wasn't even able to sneak up on Sasuke, let alone even pretend to want to kill him (Sai had already been converted to Naruto's way of thinking by this point). Honestly, I expect that Sai was merely the best of the current batch of ROOT shinobi, and not in any way a contender for best spot in the generation.

As for Neji...Neji is cool and all, and probably has been off doing other important missions that simply can't be covered in a story centered around Naruto (i.e. Neji is reletively unimportant to Naruto's story, and if Neji is as powerful as we think he is, then Naruto's battles will be less meaningful since others could potentially fight them). I'm most interested to know what is his elemental affinity.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by james0246

Unknown. Besides some nifty oil paintings, Sai has never shown anything that impressive (not that his ink techniques aren't impressive, they just seem kind of pointless (save for his ability to fly, that is an extremely powerful ability)). He was supposed to be able to assassinate Sasuke, but he wasn't even able to sneak up on Sasuke, let alone even pretend to want to kill him (Sai had already been converted to Naruto's way of thinking by this point). Honestly, I expect that Sai was merely the best of the current batch of ROOT shinobi, and not in any way a contender for best spot in the generation.

As for Neji...Neji is cool and all, and probably has been off doing other important missions that simply can't be covered in a story centered around Naruto (i.e. Neji is reletively unimportant to Naruto's story, and if Neji is as powerful as we think he is, then Naruto's battles will be less meaningful since others could potentially fight them). I'm most interested to know what is his elemental affinity.

Uh oh ... does the databook confirm that Sai was only the best of root and not of the village?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha ... oh that's funny on so many levels.

[james0246]

^LOL, joking aside, the data book doesn't really say much about Sai. He certainly has a place in the story, but his non-Naruto hours are spent doing cool shit elsewhere (tracking Kabutomaru, having his way with Anko, etc), and since they are non-Naruto hours, the story doesn't focus on what happens then (like banging Anko...).

[DarthDestroiar]

Sharingan ftw!

[That Other Ninja]

People seem to forget that the mystery behind Sai is largely still unexplained. The reference to him by Danzou as being the best in root has some kind of hidden meaning perhaps. I'm sure with all this focus on Danzou now, Sai's role will only be shed more light on eventually.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Gamma Sennin

Spoiler for manga:

Well all the pictures of Madara with the EMS show him with 2 eyes, so unless he ate them or something, it is implied that it's just a transplant.

Spoiler for manga:

That's true, but Madara's EMS pattern was a mixture of his own and his brother's. Maybe you don't actually get four individual eyes, but it's a possibility one MS is combined with the other somehow.

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Don't forget Kimimaro.

And I think, while this isn't implicitly stated, Neji could have/may have as much potential if he too fell under the tutelage of someone like a Sannin. But that's just my opinion.

Just going by the potential stat in the databook...no. Sasuke, Naruto and Haku maxed out on that. Neji had a lower score.

I can't remember if Kimimaro was given a score or not but just the fact that Oro coveted Kimimaro's body has to mean he had a lot of potential.

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

People seem to forget that the mystery behind Sai is largely still unexplained. The reference to him by Danzou as being the best in root has some kind of hidden meaning perhaps. I'm sure with all this focus on Danzou now, Sai's role will only be shed more light on eventually.

He's a freakin' android. Nothing against the guy, but to me it seems he's mostly just used as narrative on Sakura and Naruto's feelings. Since he's only recently "discovered" the concept of emotions, he goes around bluntly stating all the obvious Team 7 drama that the other characters feel is too taboo to mention.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Just going by the potential stat in the databook...no. Sasuke, Naruto and Haku maxed out on that. Neji had a lower score.

I can't remember if Kimimaro was given a score or not but just the fact that Oro coveted Kimimaro's body has to mean he had a lot of potential.

Well the databook isn't my bible. You can treat it how you like.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Well the databook isn't my bible. You can treat it how you like.

Somebody ain't sipping the kool aid. I salute you, sir.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Well the databook isn't my bible. You can treat it how you like.

You're right. It's naive of me to treat material from Kishimoto as the definitive guide to characters that are the product of his mind. We need a second opinion. He didn't even cite his sources.

[Killer Bee]

Spoiler for manga:

Hey Other Ninja, did the Databook ever have Itachi classified as the ninja who killed his whole clan just because he was evil?

Hmmm .. and later on didn't we find out that the massacre wasn't his idea, and he was basically forced to do it and only wished to protect his little brother?

Was that part in the databook BEFORE Madara told Sasuke as it supposedly only give actual facts about characters that Kishi makes up? Because I know no one on this forum was surmising that Itachi did all that for Sasuke, and I know that no one knew that Tobi was Madara.

So basically the pamphlet just gives a recap of all the events that happen and puts them in perspective the way that Kishi wants us to believe them up to that point, huh?

I agree that the stats for attributes(which probably exist for people who duel with trading cards) are accurate and there isn't any arguing about that, but that doesn't mean that they can't change at the drop of a dime. Hell ... before Naruto completed the FRS people thought he had no chance against Sasuke. Few think that way now.

All it will take is for Sakura to beat an S-class villain fro the perception of her will be totally turned around. And let's not forget that because Naruto didn't annihilate the Cloud shinobi he became a clumsy oaf again noted by all the cry-babies complaining. Then when he kowtowed to the Raikage he instantly was demoted to "loser" rank again. I said that to illustrate that you're only as good as you were perceived in your last fight ... unless you have a sharingan in which case you're a God.

Anyways, getting back to the subject, this would be a perfect opportunity for us to see what the Byakugan can do against the sharingan. Ao Vs Danzou would be very interesting or at least it would be nice to see what Ao would do if Danzou looked like he was about to posture up against him.

What would Ao first attempt to do with his byakugan when he thought he was about to enter battle? Being that byakugan has no purely offensive jutsu that we currently know about, what would Ao use his Byakugan for in a fight?

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You're right. It's naive of me to treat material from Kishimoto as the definitive guide to characters that are the product of his mind. We need a second opinion. He didn't even cite his sources.

Nobody called you naive, not openly or in my mind. Its obvious plot-wise that Naruto and Sasuke would have the most potential and it would be cited in the databook though it doesn't make concrete what happens in the future. That alone doesn't, or shouldn't, determine the nature of characters and what may be in store later. Why is Gaara Kazekage and Naruto isn't Hokage when he has so much potential? Anyway i'm saying for an on-going series nothing stays the same throughout.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Spoiler for manga:

All it will take is for Sakura to beat an S-class villain fro the perception of her will be totally turned around. And let's not forget that because Naruto didn't annihilate the Cloud shinobi he became a clumsy oaf again noted by all the cry-babies complaining. Then when he kowtowed to the Raikage he instantly was demoted to "loser" rank again. I said that to illustrate that you're only as good as you were perceived in your last fight ... unless you have a sharingan in which case you're a God.

Thanks for the salute btw. And whats sad about Sakura is she did beat an S-class villain, while still proving to be pretty useless. :P And I agree about how inconsistent the events play out with how the characters are percievably portrayed at different times.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Spoiler for manga:

Anyways, getting back to the subject, this would be a perfect opportunity for us to see what the Byakugan can do against the sharingan. Ao Vs Danzou would be very interesting or at least it would be nice to see what Ao would do if Danzou looked like he was about to posture up against him.

What would Ao first attempt to do with his byakugan when he thought he was about to enter battle? Being that byakugan has no purely offensive jutsu that we currently know about, what would Ao use his Byakugan for in a fight?

Spoiler for manga:

I wonder the same thing. But don't hope too hastily for a Byakugan vs Sharingan clash between them because Danzou won't be killed by the likes of him so if he kills Ao or beats him down, the fanatics will come out of their holes and cite the event to reference utter undeniable "proof" that the Sharingan > Byakugan – their belligerence will know no end. :P

Sharingan should be called Shenanigan.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

So basically the pamphlet just gives a recap of all the events that happen and puts them in perspective the way that Kishi wants us to believe them up to that point, huh?

Besides that the books are significantly larger than a pamphlet (and have none of the stereotypical ranting ), this is essentially correct. The data books do not tell the story, they, at best, add or clarify the story.

I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with this...

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:

I wonder the same thing. But don't hope too hastily for a Byakugan vs Sharingan clash between them because Danzou won't be killed by the likes of him so if he kills Ao or beats him down, the fanatics will come out of their holes and cite the event to reference utter undeniable "proof" that the Sharingan > Byakugan – their belligerence will know no end. :P

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:

LOL, Then the Byakugan fanatics will come out of the wood work and announce that Ao's used Byakugan was more defective than Danzou's used Sharingan, so the battle couldn't be used as evidence .

If Danzou's used Sharingan actually, by itself, beats Ao's used Byakugan (how do eyes fight eavj other?), then that would be evidence that a used Sharingan is stronger than a used Byakuagn. But that's about it. Their doujutsus do not necesarily equal what the "pureblood" users could accomplish, so there is no proof of anything.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by james0246

Spoiler for manga:

If Danzou's used Sharingan actually, by itself, beats Ao's used Byakugan (how do eyes fight eavj other?), then that would be evidence that a used Sharingan is stronger than a used Byakuagn. But that's about it. Their doujutsus do not necesarily equal what the "pureblood" users could accomplish, so there is no proof of anything.

I know. But try and convince them of that.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by james0246

Spoiler for manga:

If Danzou's used Sharingan actually, by itself, beats Ao's used Byakugan (how do eyes fight eavj other?), then that would be evidence that a used Sharingan is stronger than a used Byakuagn. But that's about it. Their doujutsus do not necesarily equal what the "pureblood" users could accomplish, so there is no proof of anything.

Spoiler for manga:

Even if Danzou's Sharingan beats Ao's Byakugan it won't prove that Sharingan>Byakugan because Danzou also has a Uchiha arm which gives him the advantage imho.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Gin

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:

Even if Danzou's Sharingan beats Ao's Byakugan it won't prove that Sharingan>Byakugan because Danzou also has a Uchiha arm which gives him the advantage imho.

Good point. Itachi's little Mindfuck Finger that he used against Naruto back at the start of Part II was described in the data books as being an Uchiha Clan ability (how an eye power can be projected from a finger is beyond me, but there you go ). So, your idea is definitely a speculation that fits the current evidence, and seems very feasible.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Spoiler for manga:

Hey Other Ninja, did the Databook ever have Itachi classified as the ninja who killed his whole clan just because he was evil

Spoiler for manga:

NO. It didn't. The databook merely said that Itachi massacred his clan and that was true. It never said anything about his motives. People assumed his motives were evil and I agree this is the way Kishimoto intentionally wanted it. But exposing red herrings and ignoring facts is two different things. The fact that Neji's potential is listed as lower than Sasuke and Naruto's is not an attempt to hide a plot point.

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Nobody called you naive, not openly or in my mind. Its obvious plot-wise that Naruto and Sasuke would have the most potential and it would be cited in the databook though it doesn't make concrete what happens in the future. That alone doesn't, or shouldn't, determine the nature of characters and what may be in store later. Why is Gaara Kazekage and Naruto isn't Hokage when he has so much potential? Anyway i'm saying for an on-going series nothing stays the same throughout.

Potential has nothing to do with current status/rank, it's one's capacity to grow. Haku was stated to have among the highest potentials in the story and he's dead.

Anyways, it wasn't my intention to say that Neji's recorded databook potential is absolute immutable truth ("potential" is a subjective term anyways). I was just explaining why Hunter mentioned Sasuke, Naruto and Haku in his list of highest potentials and why Neji and Kimi weren't.

Originally Posted by james0246

Good point. Itachi's little Mindfuck Finger that he used against Naruto back at the start of Part II was described in the data books as being an Uchiha Clan ability (how an eye power can be projected from a finger is beyond me, but there you go ). So, your idea is definitely a speculation that fits the current evidence, and seems very feasible.

What if he beats him without using the finger?

Spoiler:

I am curious to see how Ao uses Byakugan in a fight assuming he doesn't use Jyuuken. Again, I'd like to see him use some Mist techniques like Zabuza. The thick fog would be a perfect advantage for Byakugan.

[Killer Bee]

Spoiler for manga:

Originally Posted by james0246

Besides that the books are significantly larger than a pamphlet (and have none of the stereotypical ranting ), this is essentially correct. The data books do not tell the story, they, at best, add or clarify the story.

I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with this...

No, no one has disagreed because no one to date has written what I just did. With that said, some people still use the databook as a default backup to pontificate about shit that the databook couldn't possibly refute as many things are still up in the air.

The facts in the databook are subject to change and ARE NOT written in stone. They are simply just what the author wants us to believe ... for now. So when someone begins telling you that your theory is stupid or that you ignore facts which, as I said before, are subject to change then its a case of a dude on a soapbox with a pamphlet in his back pocket.

And the preachers on the soapbox NEVER EVER tell the people that they preach to that their bible doesn't really offer too many facts as much as stats and recaps of what we already know in order to leave Kishi room for dramatic license. I wonder why that is???????

That shit is lame. Really, really lame. That's all we were saying, James.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

NO. It didn't. The databook merely said that Itachi massacred his clan and that was true. It never said anything about his motives. People assumed his motives were evil and I agree this is the way Kishimoto intentionally wanted it. But exposing red herrings and ignoring facts is two different things. The fact that Neji's potential is listed as lower than Sasuke and Naruto's is not an attempt to hide a plot point.

You aren't directing that towards me because I said above that I agree that it reflects stats. So I guess you must have just been revisiting your own argument.

And even though it does offer stats, that doesn't stops the Narutologist from using the databook to lend credibility to their otherwise weak accusations and arguments.

[Nosauz]

Spoiler for manga:

wait what? isn't it clear that danzou's activation of the sharigan is from tobi activating his, which seems to imply that even if danzou's controlling the sharigan it is only due to tobi's willingness to activate those powers.

[Sabaku Kyu]

^ Spoiler tags guys. This is a very old thread and there's no [Manga] tag. It'll make Hunter cranky if he has to edit.

Spoiler:

Huh? Danzou's Sharingan is likely activated all the time if it's a transplant.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

You aren't directing that towards me because I said above that I agree that it reflects stats. So I guess you must have just been revisiting your own argument.

Well yeah, I was directing towards you because you said the information, while accurate, could still change on a dime. Neji's potential stat is as likely to change as his birthday and bloodtype. But the thing is his potential doesn't necessarily affect how strong he is portrayed in the story. Like I said, potential is a subjective thing. Back in Pt 1 when Neji could easily kick Naruto and Sasuke's asses they both still had higher potential than him. Neji could still be an incredibly powerful force within the story, but his potential will remain the same.

[james0246]

Your strange vendeta against the data books just gets weirder and weirder...

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

The facts in the databook are subject to change and ARE NOT written in stone. They are simply just what the author wants us to believe ... for now. So when someone begins telling you that your theory is stupid or that you ignore facts which, as I said before, are subject to change then its a case of a dude on a soapbox with a pamphlet in his back pocket.

The data Book contains pure facts and no speculation (though information can be left blank), there is no way around that, and you trying to deny that by claiming that "facts change" doesn't stop the data book from being factual. Specifically, very little in the data books actually change, so much a new data is gained, so further story is revealed.

Spoiler for manga:

As Sabaku Kyu illustrated, Itachi's betrayal was simply treated as a betrayal in the first 2 data books, but no real info of the events were described in any way to adequately be considered "definitive". So, like a mystery novel, as the manga reveals more info, the data books reflect this by being more definitive in their presentation of the story.

That being said, certain things in the data book have always been definitive, specifically techniques (their history, usage, rank, etc) and stats.