2008-09-29, 13:32 | Link #141 |
Casual prosumer of anime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Germany, most of the time.
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Oh wow. The House (mainly the Republicans) rejects the Paulson Plan. The Dow taking a hit (down some 700 points at one point). Looks like it's back to the drawing table for Paulson, Bernanke and Congress.
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2008-09-29, 14:01 | Link #143 |
Casual prosumer of anime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Germany, most of the time.
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^^^
Agreed, and it looks like the markets are still trying to read the entrails of what remains of the failed Paulson Plan. My impression was that most pundits and market players were almost certain that the bailout would go through. Although Bernanke's a scholar of the Great Depression (and by implication he would most likely try to avoid a repeat of history), getting a skeptical Congress to agree with a bailout for excesses caused by the financial services industry is a different matter altogether. |
2008-09-29, 15:50 | Link #144 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I am getting the sense that a lot of people here don't understand what the bailout plan really is; they just hear 'a trillion dollars', then lock up and start screaming, imagining a trillion dollars being randomly given away to wealthy fat-cat bankers.
That isn't what it is at all. A post by an economist I know explains it better than I could. It is long but please please please read it, this is very important; it could easily be more important than the Presidential election. Understand that for the past few years, the Bush administration has been desperately struggling to salvage its economic conservative legacy; they instantly tossed it in the fire just now. They did not do this lightly. Nearly half the Republican party turned their back on economic conservative principals. They did not do this because lol they wants the monies. The corrupt and self-serving politicians are many of the ones who voted against this; they put politics over the country and pandered to voters who barely understood what was being discussed. Now, you don't have to agree, but at least read. This is the best explanation for what went wrong and how this plan aims to fix it that I've seen: Quote:
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2008-09-29, 16:04 | Link #145 |
Pilot in Training
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Earth
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Ouch, 777.68. Largest point drop in NYSE history, though not the largest percent wise.
Several people are know are panicking really bad. One pulled three fourths of his money out of his bank account. Another is terrified that in a decade the Chinese will buy America because of the debts the US owes. Another is upset that inflation will get so bad he won't be able to afford TV, computers, internet, etc(Lol, a little selfish, no?). A fourth thinks this is hilarious because he hates major corporations and wants them all to fail. |
2008-09-29, 16:09 | Link #146 | |
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Another sad thing is, for the Democrats, they might have lost the argument they have to put all the blame on Bush. Now, they will need to do some sharing. |
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2008-09-29, 16:27 | Link #148 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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It partialy makes sense.
Though I did hear a suggestion on instead of doing what has been proposed, turn that money over (equally) to all American Taxpayers as income (which can thus be taxed). $700,000,000,000 U.S. Dollars spread out amoung something like 138,000,000 people (estimated). About $5,072 each before taxes. Not much if you look at it like that...but what would you do with an extra few thousand dollars?
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2008-09-29, 16:34 | Link #150 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-09-29, 16:38 | Link #151 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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"Mortgages being held by banks are also inefficient because the bank would sure like to have that money to lend out to other people." This, was where all our immediate problems began. The key question to ask being: Why should banks be allowed to lend more money than they actually have? Or, more sensibly perhaps, just how much liquidity should a bank be allowed to generate? Bear in mind that one man's notion of fiscal prudence is another man's nightmare of total recklessness. Then, we begin to understand that the problem isn't as straightforward as many people claim it is, that is, amoral fat cats conniving to steal Honest Joe's pension. In truth, I suspect that most Wall Street operators were clueless. Some were just plain stupid. Others were greedy. And a small handful were criminally deceitful. Unfortunately, it takes only one rotten apple to spoil the whole barrel. In the end, it remains true that greed has blinded most people to obvious problems that would have exploded in everyone's faces, sooner or later. ======== As for the vote-down on the bailout package, I feel that the market is over-reacting to the news. Hopefully, wiser heads will eventually prevail. Hopefully. To put it very simply, the US has two options: To either deflate or inflate its stricken financial system. Both options have their pros and cons. Now that the House of Representatives have voted against the "inflate" option, we'll soon see whether deflation would achieve the desired effect of cutting away the fiscal gangrene immediately. Either way, it's going to be very, very painful. |
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2008-09-29, 17:03 | Link #153 | |||
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Wonder which players will snap up all the SALE stocks that have suddenly become great deals.
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2008-09-29, 17:19 | Link #154 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Now, we say the whole idea is stupid and shouldn't have been implemented in the first place. Hindsight, unfortunately, is 20-20. Was it always a question of greed? Or was it more a systematic problem? I feel it's the latter, not the former. A problem this huge couldn't have been caused by any grand plan, no matter how "intelligent" Wall Street operators think they are. |
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2008-09-29, 18:13 | Link #158 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Quote:
We've heard the analogy about banks passing the cookie jar between one another until someone is eventually caught with an empty jar. That's an apt description for what happened to Lehman Brothers, Bear Sterns and Northern Rock. But it doesn't fully explain how they got to that point. On the matter of risk evaluation, it's perhaps useful to think of a poker game. Suppose you have one player who holds a full house, another who only has a pair, and someone who has nothing at all, among other players at the table. Nobody actually "knows" what hand each player is holding, that is, no one was really sure how much risk each bank was carrying. You can only gauge the probabilities by the audacity of each player's bet (similarly, to evaluate the banks' risks, we went with market sentiment, and the markets loved the mortgage-based instruments). In effect, over the last several years, we've had a scenario where the player with only a pair gambled as though he held a straight flush that trumps the full house (the soundly-financed loan). We may even have had a situation where the guy with nothing at all gambled as though he held a royal flush. Well, now's the time where we finally get to see everyone's cards, and it turns out we've all been played for fools. But we know this only because the game's over. During the game, even decently intelligent people could have been fooled. Who can you believe? Who's bluffing? Who's holding the full house? When all you have are guesses, to what extent can we fully blame everyone at Wall Street for what has happened today? Or do we blame the game instead? I would. I've always regarded poker as a stupid game that's more about gamesmanship than true skill, for example. ========= On to another matter, I continue to have difficulty understanding America's deep-seated aversion to "socialism", seeing as how this was one of the leading factors that caused the collapse of the bailout plan. Why are Americans so afraid of socialism? Socialism works, to the extent that it can often create a more equitable society for all citizens. It seems bizarre to me that, at a time of colossal corporate failure, there are still people who want to leave it to the private sector to settle the problem, rather than the government. I just don't get it at all. Where does this fear of socialism come from? As for the calls for more government oversight, it's not as though such concessions weren't included in the plan, but perhaps not as tough as many would have liked. What further controls do Americans expect to see in its financial system that the Bill didn't address? Just curious to know. Also curious to know how such controls may or may not conflict against this fear of having too much government intervention in business. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-09-29 at 18:24. |
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