Macross Frontier - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by coldwarm

Bah, Alto is improving. By the end of the series, he will be one of the top dogs.

He's improving, but he's not the master yet, and I suspect Ozma will still be better at the end. It's not unprecedented - the 'hero' of the series is almost never the best pilot. The original had Max and Millia, Plus had Guld, and Macross 7... well, Mylene certainly wasn't top dog there; her Mom and Dad still were better.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Plus had Guld

In no way, shape or form is Guld a better pilot than Isamu, the only thing you can base that assumption off was only possible due to Guld's piloting interface in his machine. No way he could've done that in Isamu's YF-19. Isamu destroyed him in testing and Guld was sweating heavily when he was reading Isamu's achievements and decorations after he found out Isamu was his opposing tester.

[justinstrife]

Don't forget Isamu has actual combat experience, which is invaluable. You can have all the testing in the world, but if you don't have the real life combat experience to back it up...

Should we also mention how Guld had already been testing the YF21 for sometime, before Isamu got his hands on the YF19?

We've never seen Guld do anything without his interface system(well there was the one OVA scene where he shot Isamu but Isamu had already won that duel handedly).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Ozma, on the other hand, fought Brera to a draw in 17. Between that and the 'have his pineapple cake and eat it, and stealing Cathy away from Leon' activities, he's earned his Badass.

More like Brera let him go in 17. Brera easily smashed the knife Ozma used, if he had fought seriously, I doubt Ozma would have survived the encounter.

- Tak

[coldwarm]

On a different subject, this time Alto saved luca again. I think this is third time?

[Haesslich]

Guld had the interface system, and Isamu had skills... but ultimately, from what I could see, Guld was the better technical pilot. He also had a superior platform, which is why he 'won' most of their encounters. And I suspect that, had Isamu tried to stop the Ghost, Isamu would've lost. Guld knew, or thought, he was better, which was why he was the one who fought the Ghost... and held things together JUST long enough to do it.

Incidentally, for the Ranka shippers, it should be noted that Alto was willing to KILL HIS COMRADES in order to continue killing Vajra, knowing what that'd do to Ranka to hear Alto had shot down her big brother. At this point, he's more likely to kill her accidentally than he is to rescue her, with his hot-blooded temper as it is. Especially now he knows that Sheryl's apparently dying of V-type infection, and may have been told that it's a disease caused by Vajra... which gives him more incentive to want to kill them.

Ranka'll probably be the one doing the rescues next time, I suspect. Alto's a good pilot, but he definitely isn't the best there yet. Brera may be better than he is, whether due to cybernetic enhancements or skill.

Originally Posted by Tak

More like Brera let him go in 17. Brera easily smashed the knife Ozma used, if he had fought seriously, I doubt Ozma would have survived the encounter.

- Tak

The knife was smashed, but Ozma certainly lasted longer than Alto did. Alto was down in like two seconds, with Brera being unarmed.

Incidentally, anyone else here starting to think of Grace as a Cylon? That shot with the scraps of clothing flying around after the secret agent declared there was only room for "one ruler of the Galaxy" was telling... and explains why Grace was grabbing herself - she was getting used to or trying to become more aware of her new body. Either that, or her chest conceals massive caliber guns...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Guld had the interface system, and Isamu had skills... but ultimately, from what I could see, Guld was the better technical pilot. He also had a superior platform, which is why he 'won' most of their encounters. And I suspect that, had Isamu tried to stop the Ghost, Isamu would've lost. Guld knew, or thought, he was better, which was why he was the one who fought the Ghost... and held things together JUST long enough to do it.

I will let JS drop the hammer on this one.

Originally Posted by Haesslich

The knife was smashed, but Ozma certainly lasted longer than Alto did. Alto was down in like two seconds, with Brera being unarmed.

I certainly never mentioned Alto being a better hand to hand fighter than Ozma. Nonetheless, regardless of how long Ozma lasted, it does not change the fact that Ozma would have certainly been defeated had Berera fought a little bit more seriously.

- Tak

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Guld had the interface system, and Isamu had skills... but ultimately, from what I could see, Guld was the better technical pilot. He also had a superior platform, which is why he 'won' most of their encounters. And I suspect that, had Isamu tried to stop the Ghost, Isamu would've lost. Guld knew, or thought, he was better, which was why he was the one who fought the Ghost... and held things together JUST long enough to do it.

When did Guld win any of their encounters? The truth of the matter is, they were dead nuts even, or Isamu came out a little bit more ontop. All the while, he was still piloting the old fashioned interface way, relying on his body, levers, pedals, and switches, where as Guld had the brain interface and didn't have to touch a thing. There's no lag time for Guld. He just thinks it, and the ship reacts. Isamu has to react as he thinks it, as he doesn't have time to adjust for moving all the different controls of the YF-19.

Part of the reason why Guld told Isamu to go to Myung, and let him handle the Ghost, was because of what he had done in the past, it was only fitting that Isamu would rescue her. It didn't have everything to do with capabilities. His YF-21 with the brain wave system could termporarily reach a greater threshold, and he was part Zentradi, but we'll never know what Isamu would have done. Don't forget, Isamu also had a passenger in the backseat.

The knife was smashed, but Ozma certainly lasted longer than Alto did. Alto was down in like two seconds, with Brera being unarmed.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...0907010807.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...0907010755.jpg


Hand to Hand fighting by the way, does not equate to piloting skills. It's a different kind of hand-eye coordination altogether.

[ipernorris]

Erm justinrife what about posting only a thumbnail of those pics? They messed up the layout...

@Haesslich
Alto chose to stay on Frontier to continue hunting down the Vajra, that's true. Is it wrong?!? I mean those damn bugs killed countless people and even some persons among his dearest one. The V-Type virus, which is killing Sheryl, is probably of Vajra's origin as well. At this point nobody cares about what Vajra's motives are: no matter what they have no right to attack humans indiscriminately committing a genocide. So a nice fold bomb on the Vajra's homeplanet is the only answer to the Vajra's aggression.
Here I see people saying "the Vajra must have their motives", "Most likely humans started the war first" and similiar things. It's easy becoming judges without being directly into problematic situations: to express a good opinion on Alto (and evreybody else) we cannot judge them with the "peace and love POV", but with the one of two living beings species which are exterminating one another for survival.

[JackRydden224]

Alto does have a duty to project Frontier from the Vajra, may it be for Sheryl's sakes or so that Ranka can have a place to come back to. Yes, Leon is a bad guy but it does not change the fact that Frontier needs capable pilots who can fight off bugs.

As for Guld and Isamu, I thought both of them are main characters so there really isn't an argument if we are gonna go with the 'hero' of the series is almost never the best pilot. theory. *Gundam is very different from this lol

[ipernorris]

I've just seen episode 22 subtitled by gg and something came to my eyes. When Leon is giving is speech he asks "why do they want to destroy our dreams" and Grace says "Simply because they're an obstacle". This clearly erase all the theories that humans started the war to begin with. Vajra don't want humantradis around in their "own" region of space: it's as simple as that and this is going perfectly according to the theory I posted some time ago.
On the Vajra's homeplanet we know for sure there is something that "goes beyond the control over the galaxy". In that theory I explained there could be some kind of transwarp conducts, like in Star Trek.

[kilroy0097]

Someone a few pages back was basing their argument off incorrect information. I am reposting the subs on that scene to clear it up.

Luca: Sheryl. Ten years ago, you were infected with the Type-V disease, and since then, you've lived as a carrier. Correct?

Sheryl: Seems that way.

Luca: Type-V Disease is caused by a bacteria... We've recently discovered that it's present in Vajra bodily fluids, but infections lead to development of symptoms. It's a blood and bodily fluid infection so the infection rate is low. If it's caught early, it can be cured with a serum produced from the Vajra. However, if that period passes, the bacteria takes root in the brain and begins to produce a toxin. Once that happens, there's nothing that can be done.

Sheryl: Is it fun? Explaining "you're going to die" with big, complicated words.

Luca: But once that point is reached, a new possibility opens up. Your voice now produces faint fold waves.

Leon: Yes. The same as that traitor, Ranka Lee.

Luca: It's not as strong as Ranka's, but perhaps that earring... That earring, made of fold quartz, may be amplifying it.

Sheryl: Then, Ranka, too, was...?

Luca: No. The source of her power is still unknown. But you can do the same thing. That's unmistakable.

Leon: So, will you sing? For the sake of humanity.

Ranka's power source is unknown and they discovered no V-Type virus in her blood.

The V-type virus is a bacteria and this sentence suggests that it can only be transmitted through exchange of bodily fluids or blood. "It's a blood and bodily fluid infection so the infection rate is low." Hence in that sense it's very much like HIV. You can not get infected by simple contact. Hence Alto can kiss Sheryl without getting the disease unless there is a blood intermingling of some sort be it through a cold sore or something similar. Unprotected sex would be a sure fire way of contracting the disease as plenty of bodily fluids are exchanged during the act.

However just like, for example tuberculosis, if caught early there are medical cures for the disease. This cure is manufactured from the blood of the Vajra. An odd sort of flu shot. I wonder what would happen if the population of immunized against the V-Type virus as they are with Flu shots today. Though saying it's a bacteria and then calling it a virus seems to contradict each other as both are different in nature. Now a virus can lead to a bacteria infection due to a low immune system. Just odd the way they say it works.

As for the earring boosting the faint power of Sheryl's singing. If they gave her more crystals and perhaps made a chamber filled with them for her to sing in, would that amplify her singing by hundreds or thousands?

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Guld had the interface system, and Isamu had skills... but ultimately, from what I could see, Guld was the better technical pilot. He also had a superior platform, which is why he 'won' most of their encounters. And I suspect that, had Isamu tried to stop the Ghost, Isamu would've lost. Guld knew, or thought, he was better, which was why he was the one who fought the Ghost... and held things together JUST long enough to do it.

I don't know about that statement, but I thought this was a an indicator in what was the superior platform.....





Anyways....enough with the Macross Plus talk...lets talk about episode 22.....

Posted this in MW and reposting it here.....

Just saw the gg's subs so I was wondering with the speculation on did "Alto and Sheryl do IT or NOT?" dying out. Can we now focus on the seond part of the episode like..........

...Did Ozma and the CF-25s with him take out the 4th Sqaudron that Alto and Luca were flying with? :blink: With the last scene were Alto screamed in frustration and MQ folding, we only saw Alto's & Luca's VF-171s, which made me think that they killd the other VF-171 pilots of the 4th Squadron.

Originally Posted by ipernorris

I've just seen episode 22 subtitled by gg and something came to my eyes. When Leon is giving is speech he asks "why do they want to destroy our dreams" and Grace says "Simply because they're an obstacle". This clearly erase all the theories that humans started the war to begin with. Vajra don't want humantradis around in their "own" region of space: it's as simple as that and this is going perfectly according to the theory I posted some time ago.
On the Vajra's homeplanet we know for sure there is something that "goes beyond the control over the galaxy". In that theory I explained there could be some kind of transwarp conducts, like in Star Trek.

You know you might be on to something here. Maybe Grace describes the Vajra as an obstacle because of SOMETHING that the Vajra are protecting that she and Galaxy want. So I'm thinking Grace probably wants Frontier to eliminate the Vajra threat and she and Galaxy get that SOMETHING that the Vajra are pretecting?

[ReddyRedWolf]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...erRankaMDE.jpg

Monster Ranka MDE

At the YF-22 vs YF-19.

The YF-22 may have been the superior fighter but the YF-19 had a better pilot.

Guld was by the book while Isamu is crazy pushing the limits of the YF-19.

Thus doing better in performance tests.

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

Ozma's such a badass. Own that princess Alto any day.

Originally Posted by germanturkey

i believe alto was in the better fighter.

Alto was'nt actually in a better fighter it was just an upgraded VF-171.

For a real world comparssion the situation was more like Alto was piloting an F-15 while Ozma was piloting an F-22. Not what you would call a "fair fight," IMHO.

Originally Posted by coldwarm

I can't believe I went through all the trouble just to get my account back and to comment on this episode. This episode was awesome. Also, both Alto and Ozma are badass. Why people think only Ozma is badass?

I wanna see berara & Grace vs alto & ozma

If you had said such a line as the one I qouted below, would'nt you sound like badass, too?

Sorry, I'm not an adult......

I'm a MAN!!!!

NOTE: this is Ozma's line, according to gg's gubs.

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by grss1982

You know you might be on to something here. Maybe Grace describes the Vajra as an obstacle because of SOMETHING that the Vajra are protecting that she and Galaxy want. So I'm thinking Grace probably wants Frontier to eliminate the Vajra threat and she and Galaxy get that SOMETHING that the Vajra are pretecting?

Uhm I think you misunderstood what Grace meant with "they're an obstacle". She wasn't referring to the Vajra but to the humantradis dreams of expanding in the universe colonizing planets and such, answering in her mind to Leon's speech. I think we can safely say that the Vajra are one of those civilizations with the philosophy "if you come in our territory you're dead!"...

[golthin]

Originally Posted by coldwarm

On a different subject, this time Alto saved luca again. I think this is third time?

Luca is an Int analyst and he was in the team not for his combat skills but for his gathering of inf skills. So he needs protection!

Originally Posted by grss1982

NOTE: this is Ozma's line, according to gg's gubs.

which is 100% accurate!

[kilroy0097]

Macross Zero, the first steps towards the origins of the Birdman.
Mao Nome, the younger of the two sisters in Macross Zero.
Dr. Mao Nome, Grace and Ranshe are working on finding the origins of the Birdman. They believe the Vajra have something to do with it.
Ranka is saved from a part of space that holds the key to the Birdman.
She returns to that area only to discover a earth like planet that has a large ring floating around it with the Birdman symbol on it.

Pretty interesting story arc from Macross Zero through Frontier. Macross anime at it's best.

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

Uhm I think you misunderstood what Grace meant with "they're an obstacle". She wasn't referring to the Vajra but to the humantradis dreams of expanding in the universe colonizing planets and such, answering in her mind to Leon's speech. I think we can safely say that the Vajra are one of those civilizations with the philosophy "if you come in our territory you're dead!"...

Oh. My bad.


Anyways....

@kilroy0097: With an avatar like that I take if you approve of Grace's "Hopes and Dreams?"



BTW...it could also be Grace's "Despairs and Nightmares."

[anyme]

For Alto & Ozma scene ,It's not even called a fight, it's like acting.
I shoot you, you shoot me, act like we fight but we talk.