Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[hbk19]

So... yeah great show, loved the episode

*stealthily adds another question*

How is Kanon and Air compared to Clannad? (the anime)

[MeoTwister5]

For the record, I don't see Clannad's ending to be one of the best endings I have ever seen, I've seen better and while it was emotionally touching it doesn't give as much closure as I would have wanted it to.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Also after seeing the exact same thing in Kanon (albeit it seemed truly random there) it really didn't feel original. Personally, I while I was glad to see a happy ending I can't help but feel let down by it at the same time.

Ironically. It is VERY difficult to have a happy ending that doesn't feel cheap in some way.

I'd argue that the happy endings of Type-Moon games are pretty decent though. Chaos;HEAd too, though that could have used a hell of a lot more closure. Too bad the anime sucked... ;_;

Originally Posted by Zenemis

I would have a problem with it, if they threw in the light-orbs at the last second, but they were evident throughout the entirety of both seasons.

Tomoya brought people happiness, and he was rewarded for it.

This is really really evident in the game, where the light orbs are basically quest rewards for making people happy.

The whole game you're all "what the hell are these orbs for?" And then you reload from the day of Ushio's birth and then go "Oh."


By the way, since no one's mentioned it yet:

Another way to look at Clannad is with the following impression in mind:

Tomoya is dead, and was dead from the start.

After Ushio died in the 'original' timeline, Tomoya killed himself, and his soul, unsatisfied and unwilling to pass on, became trapped in the Illusionary World.

After being unable to save the girl (in actuality the soul of Ushio, bound to the World due to Nagisa's contract with the town) Tomoya's soul begins a quest across parallel universes in order to collect enough light orbs to bring Nagisa back to life and fix everything.

Again, the game makes this a little more obvious by having Tomoya pass out and return to the Illusionary World if he gets a bad end.

Also, Tomoyo After might illustrate that Tomoya inevitably died in every ending that isn't the True Ending of After Story. But I don't know for certain.

[Ithekro]

As for Nagisa. Remember episode 16 and the debates on who should have done what? Also remember her chances 50-50. Episodes 17-21 and 22 are the two possibilites based on episode 16. While it is generally classed as a miracle, it can also be viewed as a parallel development. Both cases are true from a certian point of view. Also note the lighting and sounds in episode 16. The world around Tomoya is whited out...you can't see or hear anyone else in the room even though there are three other people there, only Tomoya, Nagisa, and Ushio. Now take that same scene in 22. The world is in full color, and the rest of the family is present and accounted for (Sanae, Akio and the midwife). One can make a case that from when the world whited out to that moment in 22 didn't happen and thus was just Tomoya projecting his fears and insecurities about the future...but since the leason about family still needed to be learned (or earned I suppose), 17-21 does happen, and Tomoya is looped and/or shifted to a different world where he understands the nature of family and what the that means (both the joys and sadness of it), and gains he's family in full like he probably should have without what people were calling the "contrived" mystery illness.

Basically the ending you get in 22 is the ending Tomoya would and should get because there should be no mystery illness in the first place. If you are looking for realism, take that concept and make what you have with it.

(I would assume Tomoyo After is the result of complaints about the end girl and complaints about the lack of realism in the ending. Also the lack of ero content in Clannad from some of Key's target market. Also a shift in the message to what more of the realist have been saying in this thread so far.)

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I subscribe to neither.

And in some strange way I am first to subscribe to both.......which again is where I run into problems. If you can show me the path to your POV then I'd be more than happy to join you there though.

Silverwyrm bring up another point I actually failed to mention. Didn't KeyAni do pretty much the same thing with Kanon? The whole miracles bit kind of has less of an impact the second time around. You can almost add freshness to the reasons why I preferred the lesson at the end of episode 18 far more then the one here, because I've seen the whole sufferring brings reward ending from KeyAni before.

Anyway I've made my point so unless anything new crops up into the conversation I'm off to do some other things. I just want to thank everybody for the quality of the discussion and the great spirit of the message board for allowing things to remain civil despite such contrasting viewpoints being brought to the table.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Silverwyrm bring up another point I actually failed to mention. Didn't KeyAni do pretty much the same thing with Kanon? The whole miracles bit kind of has less of an impact the second time around. You can almost add freshness to the reasons why I preferred the lesson at the end of episode 18 far more then the one here, because I've seen the whole sufferring brings reward ending from KeyAni before.

Don't think you'll like Little Busters then. At least they present the miracles and death in a refreshing FASHION though.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Don't think you'll like Little Busters then. At least they present the miracles and death in a refreshing FASHION though.

I already know all about Little Busters actually. Yes even about "that" bit.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I already know all about Little Busters actually. Yes even about "that" bit.

Then you'd agree that it's a fair bit different from other Key games and that they actually tried to do the whole miracle thing interestingly?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Then you'd agree that it's a fair bit different from other Key games and that they actually tried to do the whole miracle thing interestingly?

Slightly, but this isn't really the place to discuss it and like I said I have to be off. Check you PM's though.

[Ithekro]

Does make me wonder how the possible Higurashi-like Key story of Rewrite will turn out.

I do like that Fuuko was able to get the last word. Though it does bring up some interesting questions about the meaning of the final images.

[hbk19]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Does make me wonder how the possible Higurashi-like Key story of Rewrite will turn out.

I do like that Fuuko was able to get the last word. Though it does bring up some interesting questions about the meaning of the final images.

If the girl sleeping at the end is Ushio, then the only possible conclusion is!!!!!

She'll take her as her sister only to have Kouko bring Ushio back to Nagisa/Tomoya when she finds out what Fuko did.

Lol

[Myssa Rei]

Kaioh: Trade secret, ha ha.

MeoTwister5: I can agree with that. The resolution could have been done better; even with the mystical themes, they STILL could have made it so it seemed less a plot contrivance. but nooo....

Ithekro: It remains to be seen if Ryukishi can do Jun Maeda better.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

(I would assume Tomoyo After is the result of complaints about the end girl and complaints about the lack of realism in the ending. Also the lack of ero content in Clannad from some of Key's target market. Also a shift in the message to what more of the realist have been saying in this thread so far.)

More of the lack of Ero actually than any need for more realism. Notice how, all of a sudden, Little Busters had H-scenes with the remake EXCSTACY, when the game's story actually flowed better WITHOUT them.

Now, can SOMEONE update the CLANNAD TV Tropes page now? Frankly many of the entries are either out of date or inaccurately pointing to the WRONG tropes.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

More of the lack of Ero actually than any need for more realism. Notice how, all of a sudden, Little Busters had H-scenes with the remake EXCSTACY, when the game's story actually flowed better WITHOUT them.

I'm still waiting on the patch for Little Busters, but I know just by looking at the CGs that there's a fair bit of implied sex in the original release.

I would think that the ero-scenes would have been integrated more seamlessly than they were in Kanon, in which case.

[Nosauz]

This episode was good, no where near as impactful as say 16, or 18 but still it was able to ellicit an emotion from the viewer and it used a some what loathsome ressurection plot contrivance. This show is pretty much EXACTLY like Midori no Hibi's ending,

Spoiler for Midori no hibi:

the whole aspect of reliving a part of life that you once where involved in that is no longer true anymore.

I feel like the way the show handled the ending was ok, but the voice acting was weak especially with the girl from the illusory world, and nagisa during child labor redux. The voice acting could have stressed I dunno the plausibility of the scene, whereas the dialogue was read as if everybody was a ok. This is just a gripe on some of the tehcnical aspects of the work. This show I believe also stresses that happiness is not a given, and that each day we are happy is in itself a miracle, hence all the happiness orbs. The theme to tie all of this happiness and all of these micromiracles as I will refer to them is family. The family is the center of where we exist, I find it hard to see critics on this show about its realism, the show was never billed as strictly slice of life, the story emphaised the real world as much as the fantasy in its story. To say bringing back Nagisa cheapened the moment is just a subjective opinion as is the opinion that it was not cheasy. I find the moment when tomoya again chooses to call out to Nagisa one of the best scenes in the episode, his cry to her is one filled with sorrow and happiness, two emotions that are seemingly contradictory yet he still calls out to her, overall the high or the emotional climax of this episode didn't really reach the levels of episodes 16, 18 but as the ending point of the story it felt right.

[suka-pon-tan]

ahhh Im weak about symbolism stuff.
Did their illness was healed?
If it`s not, they gonna be sick again, and might die again...later.
I know this is stupid question, or maybe I missed something.
but I realy want know...

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by suka-pon-tan

ahhh Im weak about symbolism stuff.
Did their illness was healed?
If it`s not, they gonna be sick again, and might die again...later.
I know this is stupid question, or maybe I missed something.
but I realy want know...

Spoiler for About the sickness:

The contract with the town was paid in full, as that was what the mystery sickness is actually alluded to be. As Tomoya seems to have satisfied the Town's conditions, the sickness was dispelled. In short, it's gone Jim.

[drpassafiume]

Before reading any posts or doing more than a rough translation in my head...

Spoiler for Thank you all for Complying... ep 22:

Last week, I asked you all to focus your mental and psychic energy to bend the space time continuumumumum and bring Ushio back to life...
What can I say but, everyone, you took it a step further, you've gone the extra mile and I salute you thanks to everyone's extra effort, Nagisa is alive and well, as it should be. Together, we have warped the fabric of space and time, and the consequences of toying with reality will be grave indeed, Grave indeed...
But who cares?
Now that we've done this, we can ... we can... Take Over the World!
or... something like that
anyway, I'm glad it turned out alright, for a minute there I was afraid we'd all be sucked into a black hole or something...
I'm just rambling (and stretching a joke farther than I should) I'm too happy to think straight and I've got a final exam in japaneese tomorrow, can't wait for the subs to come out!
10/10

[suka-pon-tan]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Spoiler for About the sickness:

The contract with the town was paid in full, as that was what the mystery sickness is actually alluded to be. As Tomoya seems to have satisfied the Town's conditions, the sickness was dispelled. In short, it's gone Jim.

Oh I see. I should rewatch from 1 season.
Thank you.

[Rikimtasu]

Hell Yeah~

Spoiler for Some spoiler pic:

It is happy end...and a lot of extra.GJ,KyoAni.