Fansubber/Industry Panel at Otakon

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by getfresh

agreed... this was suppose to be a thread about the panel but it turned into a panel...

Eh, I suppose it was a good dry run. Did a good job of raising everyone's expectations of fireworks, anyway.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Eh, I suppose it was a good dry run. Did a good job of raising everyone's expectations of fireworks, anyway.

LOL, I doubt the panel will get this heated. I know tofu and myself are prepared for what the industry side has to say. And will take it in stride.


All the ppl posting the negative comments probably won't even go to the panel luckily. They just want to point fingers and argue anyways. But in the end they don't make any actions that show they even support their own views which makes all of the statements rather moot...

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Being a realist, I know quitting fansubbing or shutting down fansub groups will have no long-term effect, so I'm looking for ways to bridge the gap and fix the problem.

I'd be curious to hear more about this subject, Tofu. Do you have some real policy suggestions that could bridge the gap? Maybe if we discussed this issue it would make this thread a bit more constructive than it's been so far.

Let's take, for instance, Shion no Ou. This seems a rather unlikely candidate for an R1 release, yet watching the L-E fansubs sent me off to purchase the OST album. I'd be happy to purchase an R1 release, too, but I doubt there are enough people like me to make such a venture profitable. There are without doubt many anime series that will never find an R1 audience. What effect do the licensors think the subbing of shows like these has on their business? I suppose that some people would argue that acknowledging a place for any fansubs just legitimizes "piracy." Given that we live in a world where every popular song or movie is pretty much available somewhere on the Internet, complaining that fansubbers encourage a culture of piracy seems to me to miss the point.

Another related issue concerns financial support for the studios themselves. I'd much rather have a well-established institutional mechanism for sending money directly to the studios than having to support them indirectly, and inefficiently, by purchasing R1 releases. I've even thought a bit about how one might set up a website that would enable people to make contributions to studios via PayPal or credit cards. Like you, I am concerned about the health of the anime industry in Japan, more concerned in fact than I am about the health of the licensors. I'd like to see some discussion be focused on how those of us outside Japan can help keep the industry afloat without having to rely on an outmoded system of buying R1 DVDs from licensors.

My final suggestion is to raise the question of how effectively the market for anime has been developed outside Japan. I see large groups of people, women and older folks primarily, who have often been ignored by licensors. While I hear claims that the licensors have tried to expand the size of the audience, in reality it still looks like most of the effort is aimed at young males. Of course, part of that reflects the nature of the market in Japan as well, but I'd still argue that we have not seen much in the way of innovative marketing when it comes to anime. What efforts have the licensors made to put their shows on more mainstream programming networks or pay services? Have they tried to reach 18-34 women by licensing shoujo and josei titles to channels like Oxygen or Lifetime? How about the pay services like HBO or Starz? At the Anime Expo panel, the licensors were decrying the decline in the average age, and thus the average purchasing power, of the American anime audience. Do the licensors think their actions have played no part in this trend? What are they doing to expand the appeal of anime to older viewers and to women? Do fansubs have the same effect on the sales of anime that have broader demographics than they do on sales of the more typical shounen series that get licensed in R1?

Most discussions of the effects of fansubbing (like the Anime Expo panel) treat the anime audience as an undifferentiated mass. The real issues concern how fansubs affect specific audiences for specific shows and types of shows. I have no doubt fansubs hurt the sales of some types of shows, but I'm dubious that the effect is uniform across all types of anime. If the discussion stays fixed on broad generalities about "the audience," I fear it won't be too productive.

[Teppei]

Question for Tofu: Will this panel be recorded? I won't be there (honesty I can't stand anime conventions), but I'm quite interested in how this progresses.

It sure would be nice if both the industry representatives and fansubbers get off their high horses and try to actually discuss the situation rationally instead of employing the usual hyperbole ("The Death of Anime" my ass). I'll hold out some hope that such a thing might happen.

[Access]

Tofu,

Don't let them take advantage of you in this panel, Shion like he mentioned above, is a good example. For many of these shows fansubs are the only way fans outside of Japan will _ever_ see them subtitled. Especially now that the industry is in a state of ongoing consolidation, they are going to be looking for margin-rich "cash cows" as titles and not special interest titles that are risky and may not appeal to the fans they sell to.

It's highly unlikely something like, say, creamy mami will ever be licensed, not only do you have the lack of industry demand for titles like that, but you also have added problems of licensing all the auxiliary meteriel (ie. songs) in an older title like that, which alone is next to impossible for the expected returns it would get the licensor.

People fansubbing shows they know or expect to be licensed is one thing, don't start an argument or debate you can't win (or at least make a convincing argument for) and don't try to defend the indefensible.

And be sure to get a video made, and posted in some public place where anyone can play it.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会

I'm afraid you're missing the point that animes are produced for the Japanese audience at the first rate. I honestly don't plan on peeking in the North American companies business. It's completely up to them how to run their business and if they make mistakes and go bankrupt... well yeah, bad luck, I guess. I'll keep purchasing stuff I like from Japan and that will help the original creators.
The reason why production levels drop and stuff is rather on the side of outsourcing and other means. And unless you are willing to do the job of all the people or pay them, I highly doubt you can contribute in any other way.

You're missing the point that companies and jobs have been folding left and right INSIDE OF JAPAN due to poor sales outside of Japan.

And I'll make sure a video goes up somewhere.

BTW, I'm not actually going to be participating in the panel so I have to get my rants done on here

-Tofu

[TGEN]

Originally Posted by getfresh

When they go to license a show they want Japanese corps tend to "tack on" other series from their catalog. Basicly they say "If you want Q-anime(generic super popular show), you must also license Z-anime, Y-anime, and X-anime(Poorly received or obscure series)." That is how these R1 firms end up with alot of crap series you see them selling for 5$ a dvd that has 15 epis. The show was bought with the knowledge that it would be a loss, but they set their hopes on the gains getting the big title would bring.

Even though it's possible to still make a profit with this model, I'm surprised anyone serious about running a business maximizing shareholder profit would accept this. Surely the R1 companies have some leverage, refusing to enter contracts like these. At least, if it's true that a lot of anime production outfits depend on R1 sales to make a profit themselves.

[Nicholi]

Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会

Yes for me it is a hobby and nothing else. I also don't think it's our job to push the industry in the "right direction". As a company they should be capable of making correct decisions or they are better off closing the business. I have the feeling they don't do market analysis before licensing stuff (like Musashi Gundoh) so there's no reason to wonder about some "failures".

Truth.

@Tofusensei
Companies are folding....were they going bankrupt because of bad business decisions maybe? Obviously the first thing sore losers would point to is something that does take money away from their business. But fansubbing being the core, central, or even major cause of this? I seriously doubt it. No doubt it is not helping them but the core issue could have simply been their all too positive outlook on their investments, and then everything did not go "just as planned". And why were they putting all their eggs in one basket (sales outside of Japan)? Seems oddly foolish enough, especially if you do not understand the market you are selling to.

Yes, a video of this panel would be most excellent!

[Starks]

Media Blasters has fansub connections?


Eh?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Starks

Media Blasters has fansub connections?


Eh?

MB wouldn't be the company it is today if John Sirabella hadn't watched the Rurouni Kenshin fansubs at his college's anime club out on Long Island and decided to license it.

See, HECTO was good for something!

-Tofu

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

See, HECTO was good for something!

Aren't people from that group involved with BOST now?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Toua

Aren't people from that group involved with BOST now?

That would certainly be news to me! If that's true, then they've certainly come a LONG way from their bootlegging, expletive-ridden fakesubbing days!

I heard that one of the founders of BOST (Taiwanese man, if I recall) had some fansubbing past but no idea where or in what language.

-Tofu

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Nicholi

Yes, a video of this panel would be most excellent!

you are coming to otakon this year aren't you? I'm cool with it being taped and distributed, but I can't even use the camera on my phone right... so if someone else wants to take the role ;D

[Itachikun]

Can you please invite the dude who did the controversial fansub documentary?

Haha, but just a question, these four groups that are joining the panel, were these groups the only people who wanted to participate, or were they carefully chosen? I mean there are loads of experience fansubbers that could provide great opinion but I'm just curious on how groups were chosen.

Thanks,

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Itachikun

Can you please invite the dude who did the controversial fansub documentary?

Haha, but just a question, these four groups that are joining the panel, were these groups the only people who wanted to participate, or were they carefully chosen? I mean there are loads of experience fansubbers that could provide great opinion but I'm just curious on how groups were chosen.

Thanks,

Basically it's people who have participated in Otakon fansub panels in the past.

-Tofu

[Mio]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Please cut the negativity, guys. This will be the first time that such high-level representatives from both side of the fence will be up on stage to discuss in a large forum. It's a big deal.

If you have no interest in the panel or think it will be a pointless waste of time, please don't post in this thread.

-Tofu

I simply implied a need to have fair representatives from both sides. Sure, you'll get high level people from licensing companies but what of fansubbers? I don't think there will be a fair representation of the side that has been accused of bankrupting these companies, while I agree that issues related to practices of fansubbing can be put aside for now (i.e. speedsubbing), you simply can't represent the whole body of fansubbers with a few so called "high-level reps." Who decided on these reps? Fansubbers often don't think alike, you can't possibly say that just because you have a few representatives it'll be a fair balance between the two sides, not like we're getting paid while those companies have reps that are probably making more than all of us subbers have made in our combined subbing careers by just sitting there for an hour.

Useless negativity? I don't think so. I may have picked bad examples to illustrate my point, but you guys take this way too seriously. Fansubbers are fansubbers and licensors are licensors, if they want to work together then great, if they want to argue the same points over and over again in perhaps what will be more detailed discussions, go wild. All I'm trying to say is that I'm afraid we'll be represented unfairly, but then again I don't really care since I'm not making anything by opening up After Effects and burning those hours.

[dragon5152]

Originally Posted by Ayami

Unless there are other "representatives" that can speak fairly for the part of subbing that doesn't put h264 into an AVI container and decimating the video to achieve awesomely jittery pan motions, not really interested in a recording

So true...
/me rages about how people use x264 (h264) improperly
/me stabs
/me /wrists

On a side note... DB AND Shitsen in the same place representing fansubbers eh?
(I don't really know live-evil or A-E that well though, so maybe some proper representation will be there....)

:S

You know. I THOUGHT timecop knew what he was doing, trolling at the same time, but at least I thought he knew what he was doing. h264 in avi proves to me he has no clue what he's doing.

[cyth]

How many different fansubbers do you need to make the representation fair? What I don't understand is what would make it more fair if they had more people on the panel. Tofu covered most if not all of the basic backgrounds. I think you guys are just vexed by the fact that your techniques, goals, and ambitions can be explained by someone other than yourselves, or you dislike certain groups you don't wish to be associated with. And it's not like you're forbidden to attend the panel and speak up.

As far as being way too serious about this, if there are no rules in fansubbing, then there shouldn't be any rules how serious you can take it.

P.S.: timecop knows what he's doing.

[dragon5152]

Originally Posted by Toua

P.S.: timecop knows what he's doing.

Putting h264 in avi proves otherwise... :S

[cyberbeing]

Originally Posted by Ayami

So let me get this straight...there's a panel at Otakon, DB staff is going there to represent all of us subbers?

Originally Posted by Ayami

...you simply can't represent the whole body of fansubbers with a few so called "high-level reps."...
...All I'm trying to say is that I'm afraid we'll be represented unfairly...

What's with all this talk about the fansub representatives chosen representing all fansub groups as a whole?

The only person they represent is themselves along with their experience with fansubbing over the years and there is nothing wrong with that. They are but a sample of the whole so it's crazy to get bent out of shape about it because you don't think they represent all fansub groups. I don't see that as even the purpose of this panel.

The fansubbers chosen have most likely been around for many years and have built up contacts with other subbers both online and offline. This makes them 'safe' bets (hopefully). It wouldn't be very smart to pick some random fansubbers that you and other subbers barely know and risk the chance of ending up with a circus at the panel.

With that said, I think there is a 50/50 chance this panel will turn out to be interesting. It really all depends if the industry reps go on an all out no-discussion attack or if they actually make it a discussion/debate over various things.