2013-04-13, 15:44 | Link #181 | |
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As far as Orochimaru, I feel that as a character, he doesn't have much to contribute anymore, he is still one of my favorite villains of the show, but at this point in the story, we have bigger fishes to fry and Oro is more useful as information giver than anything else. I kinda of don't mind his switch of heart, it's refreshing ( to me) |
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2013-04-13, 15:55 | Link #182 | |||
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2013-04-13, 16:39 | Link #183 |
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To be honest that whole "kill the Uchiha or there will be war" thing has always bothered me.
Is there a guarantee that there would have been war? Why would there be war? Why would the rest of the world care if the Uchiha took over Konoha? Even if there was a war, the Uchiha would be one of the clans most likely to survive. After all, along with the Senju clan they were famous as the one of the most powerful clans in existance before the villages were founded. To me it sounds more like a scare tactic to motivate Itachi.
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2013-04-13, 17:38 | Link #184 | |
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2013-04-13, 17:44 | Link #185 |
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Well what kind of war? Let's say one of the four villages tried to destroy Konoha during the coup d'etat. That's still not a world war.
Also in my opinion that's still a big if. If I remember, at the time the Uchiha were planning a coup d'etat, the nations were at an armistice. Meaning there was no war going on and there was kind of this unwritten rule that you don't randomly attack another village.
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2013-04-13, 18:13 | Link #186 | |||
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2013-04-13, 18:24 | Link #187 | |
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And yet no other village took advantage to attack Konoha after either the Kyubi attack or Orochimaru's invasion which shows that attacking another village is not done even if opportune. |
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2013-04-13, 18:33 | Link #188 | |
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Itachi witnessed a war and was probably the most traumatic experience in his life (aside from having to murder his friends and family). He wanted to prevent another war no matter what, even if there was only a slight chance. I think scare tactics work on him when it comes to war. And maybe it's a little bit of naivety on Itachi's part.
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2013-04-13, 18:42 | Link #189 | |
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but i dont think anyone said war was imminent. they said the uchiha coup was imminent. so as Captain Commando said, it was at least to stop a civil war. a civil war with the uchiha (a clan capable of controlling the kyuubi) is bad news with a probable worse outcome than the 2 incidents you cited. |
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2013-04-13, 19:16 | Link #190 |
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I don't see how a civil war with the Uchiha is bad for Itachi. All it means is that the Uhciha would have taken over Konoha's leadership. Which essentially means that Hiruzen, Koharu, Homaru, and Danzou would have been killed. I don't think the Uchiha would indiscriminately kill other villagers so long as they didn't resist.
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2013-04-13, 20:14 | Link #191 | |
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2013-04-13, 20:23 | Link #192 | |
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Also I don't know if Itachi and Shisui would be on Konoha's side if the coup actually happened. I mean what would be the point? Their goal was to prevent it, if they fail they might as well join up with their family and try to make it work. Also don't underestimate the vast number of the Uchiha clan. Even Sasuke noted that there was no way that even Itachi could have taken out the Police Force all by himself. Anyway, I don't think we can really say what the outcome would be. Some of Konoha's clans may have taken the side of the Uchiha.
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2013-04-13, 20:24 | Link #193 | ||
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But honestly I find pointless to discuss the specific of the coup and its possible results : Kishimoto has made so thoroughly a mess of the issue that there is no way to look at this logically. For the situation to happen as it did it'd mean every and all the characters involved in this over 6 decades were all complete retard, and I mean clinically so. The entire thing makes no sense. Last edited by Hunter; 2013-04-16 at 21:33. Reason: typo |
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2013-04-13, 21:20 | Link #194 | |
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Offtopic, what I find amusing about the bigger picture is Konoha won't had have many of the problems it faced if they had given the Uchiha the Hokage position.
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2013-04-13, 21:50 | Link #196 |
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Yes because generally you'd rather trust this someone with the mission to murder his entire family and clan for your sake and to never tell anyone about it before sending him as a double agent into the most dangerous organization on earth.
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2013-04-13, 21:51 | Link #197 | |
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Honestly, this is what I think happened....when kishi first wrote or designed the character of Itachi, he meant for Itachi to be pure evil. He wrote Itachi to a genius who just wants to test himself against the world, so much..that he killed his whole clan, and bred his little brother to become a psychopath (which would make him strong due to the Sharingan) and go test his strength. Eventually as the story progressed, Kishimoto became fond to this character ( as an amateur writer, I surely say that this happens commonly), and through his attachment wanted to somehow justify his action and redeem Itachi. This was his way of doing so. However, since this wasn't the original intent of Itachi, now we have a lot of confusion that is making us have debates in a logical manner in a realm where logics was never applied. I think that there is an actual word for this situation though I cannot remember right now. Yes, if Itachi truly loved his brother, he would have killed him along with the clan to spare him the agony of loss. If he truly wanted peace, he would have find another way..maybe capturing his father and other leaders of the clan to stop the immediate imminent civil war. If killing his whole clan is unavoidable, then keeping his brother safe and sane should have been his number one priority. But we all know this wasn't the case, but given the new information, from Hashirama, Obito, Hiruzen, and Itachi himself we are now attempting to interpret past events with new information which isn't working out for the most of us (myself included). I 'm a big Itachi fan so I like the idea of him always been a "good moral" guy, but I have to admit what he did in the past was fucked up and can't truly be justified given the information that we have, maybe new info will come later that validates it but as of now, no. |
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2013-04-13, 22:23 | Link #198 | ||||||
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retcons included, itachi never went batshit crazy ever. you're thinking of his character circa 2005. this thread is about the current manga chapter and what we know now |
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2013-04-13, 23:14 | Link #199 | ||
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To me, Itachi was always meant to be a pitiful anti-villain, doing awful things for supposedly good reasons. And I doubt Kishimoto decide to change Itachi's initial storyline too much (especially considering some of the other 'long cons' he's pulled over). To rephrase, very little of the story has truly been spur of the moment or without precedent. Beyond Danzou and a few other relevant characters and events, most of the story has been fairly organic with the only real plot holes developing around illogical character actions. True there has been some retconning involved throughout (for example: Hashirama - but even that retcon began fairly early on, as early as the end of Part I), but even that isn't bad, just annoying. Quote:
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2013-04-14, 02:18 | Link #200 | |||
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Even the flashbacks you mentioned that happenned during the first naruto sasuke fight around 190 were really more of a backup to the old notion that Itachi was so evil that he even pretended to be Sasuke's big brother until he got tired of playing along. When watching it at that time, that was the interpretation that everyone took. Now, with the new information that we have, you can nickpick and say "wow, Itachi's teaching Sasuke how to throw Kunais, well that must be evidence of him loving his brother this whole time. "....No, that's not how we interpreted it at the time of viewing, and we can't assume that Kishi had any other plans for Itachi after the fact because of later revelation, especially if later revelation is somewhat inconsistent with what we know. Quote:
I'm not saying this is bad...not at all, I like the new developments that we've had, but I don't think saying this story is organic is a good way to describe this manga. I may be wrong....and correct me if I am, but I read somewhere years ago that Kishi doesn't even plan his manga in advance..meaning that when he wrote chapter one, he didn't have in mind what chapter 200 would be about. So in a sense, this story is kind of a spur of the moment kind of thing, honestly I like this freestyle type of writing but that does open up a lot of chances for plot holes, and most of all inconsistencies that have to ,later, be cleaned by flashback revelations. Quote:
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