[Manga] Naruto Chapter 627 Discussion Thread

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by DarthDestroiar

The REAL Hokages are going to fight thats good... But Karin... What the hell... Sasuke almost killed her with a crazy look on his face and now everything is fine, like nothing happened. And i dont like to see Oro all goody goody.

I was also thoroughly surprised by the Karin reaction, it is totally not like her character to just forgive someone without thinking through first, but it's not like I was ready to read a longful hearftul appology by Sasuke either lol

As far as Orochimaru, I feel that as a character, he doesn't have much to contribute anymore, he is still one of my favorite villains of the show, but at this point in the story, we have bigger fishes to fry and Oro is more useful as information giver than anything else. I kinda of don't mind his switch of heart, it's refreshing ( to me)

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by 550103401

Psychopath: a person having a character disorder distinguished by amoral or antisocial behavior without feelings of remorse.

and your point by defining this is what? you later say in your post that itachi wanted sasuke to punish him. That doesn't sound remorseless to me

If by turned around you mean that he spun Sasuke in circles, manipulating the poor kid his entire life then yes, that was Itachi. He betrayed his brother's trust in the worst way imaginable, and then made Sasuke look at his dead parents and spurred him on to seek revenge. All of which led Sasuke down the road of depression and detachment. So you're saying that Itachi turned him around again? Great, it was he who caused the mess in the first place. I'll admit, so far Naruto has accomplished nothing, or very little at most, when it comes to helping Sasuke. But it needs to be mentioned that Itachi placed his trust in Naruto to eventually save Sasuke. Why? Because Itachi wasn't going to do it himself. All that time he wanted Sasuke to punish him for committing those horrible acts.

i agree with this. i dont see why i have to repeat myself so much with some people... neither i nor the character of itachi nor hiruzen thinks it was the right thing to do. and despite itachi placing the burden on naruto, it was still itachi who wound up 'turning sasuke around' ... again if you prefer. naruto hasn't done anything to change sasuke's mind

We have different opinions on how we view an emotionless person who is willing to kill his neighborhood. You define his lack of emotion as stoic, and I don't.

you're not accounting the imminent war that would have wiped out the uchiha anyway in your judgment. basically the uchiha would have died and so would a lot of konoha or just the uchiha would have died. it's a terrible choice and an impossible situation. itachi and the elders chose to sacrifice the few to protect the many. in retrospect, itachi and hiruzen regretted it, but it wasn't some psychopathic massacre. itachi cried when killing his parents and after he talked to sasuke. he wasn't calm or enjoying it like a psychopath would. let's also keep the perspective that these are ninja we're talking about. it's not your average group of people. they're trained killers. granted they have devotion to family, clan and village and that plays a part in itachi and the elders' decision. they chose the village above a single clan. they just acted prematurely and extremely. and to some, regrettably

[JustRob]

To be honest that whole "kill the Uchiha or there will be war" thing has always bothered me.
Is there a guarantee that there would have been war? Why would there be war?
Why would the rest of the world care if the Uchiha took over Konoha?

Even if there was a war, the Uchiha would be one of the clans most likely to survive.
After all, along with the Senju clan they were famous as the one of the most powerful clans in existance before the villages were founded.

To me it sounds more like a scare tactic to motivate Itachi.

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by JustRob

To be honest that whole "kill the Uchiha or there will be war" thing has always bothered me.
Is there a guarantee that there would have been war? Why would there be war?
Why would the rest of the world care if the Uchiha took over Konoha?

Even if there was a war, the Uchiha would be one of the clans most likely to survive.
After all, along with the Senju clan they were famous as the one of the most powerful clans in existance before the villages were founded.

To me it sounds more like a scare tactic to motivate Itachi.

There wouldn't have been a war because of the fact of the Uchiha attempting a coup d'etat, but more of an opportunity to attack the leaf through their civil war (get them while they are confused instead of when they are united). So most likely, a war would have started no doubt be imminent, and that's just a scenario that Itachi wanted to avoid by all means necessary.

[JustRob]

Well what kind of war? Let's say one of the four villages tried to destroy Konoha during the coup d'etat. That's still not a world war.

Also in my opinion that's still a big if. If I remember, at the time the Uchiha were planning a coup d'etat, the nations were at an armistice.
Meaning there was no war going on and there was kind of this unwritten rule that you don't randomly attack another village.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by JustRob

To be honest that whole "kill the Uchiha or there will be war" thing has always bothered me.
Is there a guarantee that there would have been war? Why would there be war?

There would have been at least been a civil war.

Why would the rest of the world care if the Uchiha took over Konoha?

It's not that they necessarily care which of the founding clans rules per se, its moreso that a very prominent village would be vunlerable during a civil war, which may have enticed other villages who might have had uneasy relations to take advantage. Even if no one attacked during the civil war, the village would obviously be quite weakened afterwards, regardless of which clan prevails.

To me it sounds more like a scare tactic to motivate Itachi.

He doesn't strike me as the type to fall for scare tactics : /

[Ushio the Omega]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

There would have been at least been a civil war.



It's not that they necessarily care which of the founding clans rules per se, its moreso that a very prominent village would be vunlerable during a civil war, which may have enticed other villages who might have had uneasy relations to take advantage. Even if no one attacked during the civil war, the village would obviously be quite weakened afterwards, regardless of which clan prevails.



He doesn't strike me as the type to fall for scare tactics : /

And yet no other village took advantage to attack Konoha after either the Kyubi attack or Orochimaru's invasion which shows that attacking another village is not done even if opportune.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

There would have been at least been a civil war.



It's not that they necessarily care which of the founding clans rules per se, its moreso that a very prominent village would be vunlerable during a civil war, which may have enticed other villages who might have had uneasy relations to take advantage. Even if no one attacked during the civil war, the village would obviously be quite weakened afterwards, regardless of which clan prevails.



He doesn't strike me as the type to fall for scare tactics : /

He doesn't strike me as that type either but you and I don't know the full effect the previous war had on Itachi.
Itachi witnessed a war and was probably the most traumatic experience in his life (aside from having to murder his friends and family).
He wanted to prevent another war no matter what, even if there was only a slight chance.

I think scare tactics work on him when it comes to war. And maybe it's a little bit of naivety on Itachi's part.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ushio the Omega

And yet no other village took advantage to attack Konoha after either the Kyubi attack or Orochimaru's invasion which shows that attacking another village is not done even if opportune.

while that's true, we don't know the specifics of what the other villages were going through at those times. and konoha wasn't exactly weak after each of those attacks either. they still had hiruzen as hokage and the uchiha clan after the kyuubi attack (plus everyone else who lived). and after orochimaru's invasion they only really lost hiruzen as far as major powers goes. their jounins and anbu fought off the sound village quite handily. keep in mind that konoha is at the top of the food chain as far as villages go, so if they lose some strong ninja, they still have a lot more left. plus they always had the kyuubi after those incidents. that's part of the reason minato sacrificed himself.

but i dont think anyone said war was imminent. they said the uchiha coup was imminent. so as Captain Commando said, it was at least to stop a civil war. a civil war with the uchiha (a clan capable of controlling the kyuubi) is bad news with a probable worse outcome than the 2 incidents you cited.

[JustRob]

I don't see how a civil war with the Uchiha is bad for Itachi. All it means is that the Uhciha would have taken over Konoha's leadership. Which essentially means that Hiruzen, Koharu, Homaru, and Danzou would have been killed. I don't think the Uchiha would indiscriminately kill other villagers so long as they didn't resist.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by JustRob

I don't see how a civil war with the Uchiha is bad for Itachi. All it means is that the Uhciha would have taken over Konoha's leadership. Which essentially means that Hiruzen, Koharu, Homaru, and Danzou would have been killed. I don't think the Uchiha would indiscriminately kill other villagers so long as they didn't resist.

you vastly overestimate the uchiha. they would have been wiped out for certain. we saw how the senju almost eradicated them prior to konoha's formation. not only would they be facing all the clans of konoha, but their 2 most powerful ninja, itachi and shisui, were on konoha's side. konoha would have suffered heavy loss, but the uchiha would have been annihilated regardless of whether itachi and obito did it or if there was a civil war. konoha was also privvy to them staging the coup so they had no element of surprise either

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you vastly overestimate the uchiha. they would have been wiped out for certain. we saw how the senju almost eradicated them prior to konoha's formation. not only would they be facing all the clans of konoha, but their 2 most powerful ninja, itachi and shisui, were on konoha's side. konoha would have suffered heavy loss, but the uchiha would have been annihilated regardless of whether itachi and obito did it or if there was a civil war. konoha wa also privvy to them staging the coup so they had no element of surprise either

Almost eradicated? I don't know which manga you read, but as far as I know the Senju and the Uchiha were pretty much equal, with Hashirama being a bit stronger then Madara. If the Senju could simply eradicate the Uchiha there wouldn't have been a need to make peace with them or anyone else.

Also I don't know if Itachi and Shisui would be on Konoha's side if the coup actually happened. I mean what would be the point? Their goal was to prevent it, if they fail they might as well join up with their family and try to make it work. Also don't underestimate the vast number of the Uchiha clan. Even Sasuke noted that there was no way that even Itachi could have taken out the Police Force all by himself.

Anyway, I don't think we can really say what the outcome would be. Some of Konoha's clans may have taken the side of the Uchiha.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

while that's true, we don't know the specifics of what the other villages were going through at those times. and konoha wasn't exactly weak after each of those attacks either. they still had hiruzen as hokage and the uchiha clan after the kyuubi attack (plus everyone else who lived). and after orochimaru's invasion they only really lost hiruzen as far as major powers goes. their jounins and anbu fought off the sound village quite handily. keep in mind that konoha is at the top of the food chain as far as villages go, so if they lose some strong ninja, they still have a lot more left. plus they always had the kyuubi after those incidents. that's part of the reason minato sacrificed himself.

It was stated that Konoha lost nearly half its power after Orochimaru's attack, they had no Kage and the Cloud village was militarily more powerful at this point.

Originally Posted by JustRob

I don't see how a civil war with the Uchiha is bad for Itachi. All it means is that the Uhciha would have taken over Konoha's leadership. Which essentially means that Hiruzen, Koharu, Homaru, and Danzou would have been killed. I don't think the Uchiha would indiscriminately kill other villagers so long as they didn't resist.

Konoha's leadership was aware of their plan thanks to Itachi and Shisui so this had no chance whatsoever to be a quick and relatively bloodless change of leadership even assuming (which is more than doubtful) that all the others clan would have accepted the new status quo had they succeeded.

But honestly I find pointless to discuss the specific of the coup and its possible results : Kishimoto has made so thoroughly a mess of the issue that there is no way to look at this logically. For the situation to happen as it did it'd mean every and all the characters involved in this over 6 decades were all complete retard, and I mean clinically so. The entire thing makes no sense.

[astayanax]

But honestly I find pointless to discuss the specific of the coup and its possible results : Kishimoto has made so thoroughly a mess of the issue that there is no way to look at this logically.

Pretty much. This is among some of Kishi's worst writing. Nothing about it made sense, especially when you consider that the village made Itachi took on the entire Uchiha clan by himself (they didn't know about Obito).

Offtopic, what I find amusing about the bigger picture is Konoha won't had have many of the problems it faced if they had given the Uchiha the Hokage position.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Offtopic, what I find amusing about the bigger picture is Konoha won't had have many of the problems it faced if they had given the Uchiha the Hokage position.

Generally you don't want to give the role of leadership to someone who is apt to go batshit crazy at the drop of a hat.

[Hunter]

Yes because generally you'd rather trust this someone with the mission to murder his entire family and clan for your sake and to never tell anyone about it before sending him as a double agent into the most dangerous organization on earth.

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by Hunter

But honestly I find pointless to discuss the specific of the coup and its possible results : Kishimoto has made so thoroughly a mess of the issue that there is no way to look at this logically. For the situation to happen as it did it'd mean every and all the characters involved in this over 6 decades were all complete retard, and I mean clinically so. The entire thing makes no sense.

This.

Honestly, this is what I think happened....when kishi first wrote or designed the character of Itachi, he meant for Itachi to be pure evil. He wrote Itachi to a genius who just wants to test himself against the world, so much..that he killed his whole clan, and bred his little brother to become a psychopath (which would make him strong due to the Sharingan) and go test his strength.

Eventually as the story progressed, Kishimoto became fond to this character ( as an amateur writer, I surely say that this happens commonly), and through his attachment wanted to somehow justify his action and redeem Itachi. This was his way of doing so.

However, since this wasn't the original intent of Itachi, now we have a lot of confusion that is making us have debates in a logical manner in a realm where logics was never applied. I think that there is an actual word for this situation though I cannot remember right now.

Yes, if Itachi truly loved his brother, he would have killed him along with the clan to spare him the agony of loss. If he truly wanted peace, he would have find another way..maybe capturing his father and other leaders of the clan to stop the immediate imminent civil war. If killing his whole clan is unavoidable, then keeping his brother safe and sane should have been his number one priority.

But we all know this wasn't the case, but given the new information, from Hashirama, Obito, Hiruzen, and Itachi himself we are now attempting to interpret past events with new information which isn't working out for the most of us (myself included). I 'm a big Itachi fan so I like the idea of him always been a "good moral" guy, but I have to admit what he did in the past was fucked up and can't truly be justified given the information that we have, maybe new info will come later that validates it but as of now, no.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Almost eradicated? I don't know which manga you read, but as far as I know the Senju and the Uchiha were pretty much equal, with Hashirama being a bit stronger then Madara. If the Senju could simply eradicate the Uchiha there wouldn't have been a need to make peace with them or anyone else.

i read the naruto manga. which one do you read? hashirama just explained my point only a couple chapters ago. you need to read the end of chapter 624. the uchiha were outclassed and began to defect to the senju prior to konoha's creation. the senju didn't have to make peace. it was hashirama being empathic toward them that allowed for the uchiha clan's survival

Also I don't know if Itachi and Shisui would be on Konoha's side if the coup actually happened. I mean what would be the point?

it was stated several times that they sided with the village over their clan. they both had the 'will of fire' which protects konoha above all else

Also don't underestimate the vast number of the Uchiha clan. Even Sasuke noted that there was no way that even Itachi could have taken out the Police Force all by himself.

yea, one person didnt annihilate them, it took a whole 2 people... granted it was a surprise attack in the middle of the night, but they are ninja and the police force as you noted so they must have had sentries. the bottom line is that the uchiha are over-hyped. the senju outclassed them and they were eradicated by 2 very strong ninja, 1 of which would have most likely fought for konoha in the civil war anwyay

Originally Posted by Hunter

It was stated that Konoha lost nearly half its power after Orochimaru's attack, they had no Kage and the Cloud village was militarily more powerful at this point.

hmm ok but then why didnt the cloud attack them? they already were on bad terms with them due to the hyuuga incident. i figured only nameless shinobi died aside from hiruzen.

But honestly I find pointless to discuss the specific of the coup and its possible results : Kishimoto has made so thoroughly a mess of the issue that there is no way to look at this logically. For the situation to happen as it did it'd mean every and all the characters involved in this over 6 decades were all complete retard, and I mean clinically so. The entire thing makes no sense.

yea i agree it's a mess. i think a lot of it can be explained, but with a grain of salt. itachi was too evil in the first couple years of the story.

Originally Posted by astayanax

Offtopic, what I find amusing about the bigger picture is Konoha won't had have many of the problems it faced if they had given the Uchiha the Hokage position.

yea, making itachi hokage would have been their best move, but kishi already had written it so that it was impossible. plus it would have been boring since it would have bypassed all the drama

Originally Posted by GDB

Generally you don't want to give the role of leadership to someone who is apt to go batshit crazy at the drop of a hat.

retcons included, itachi never went batshit crazy ever. you're thinking of his character circa 2005. this thread is about the current manga chapter and what we know now

[james0246]

Originally Posted by yogotah

However, since this wasn't the original intent of Itachi, now we have a lot of confusion that is making us have debates in a logical manner in a realm where logics was never applied.

I don't really think you can say Kishimoto never had ulterior motives for Itachi. Yes he was introduced as a monstrous villain, but by the time the first Uchiha flashback occurred (190? thereabouts), everything we thought we knew about the character had been turned on its head. Yes, the reasoning for the massacre are still somewhat (very) stupid, on all sides, but Itachi's eventual reveal as a peace-loving assassin forced to kill was a very straightforward storyline filled with mounting evidence and lots of little details.

To me, Itachi was always meant to be a pitiful anti-villain, doing awful things for supposedly good reasons. And I doubt Kishimoto decide to change Itachi's initial storyline too much (especially considering some of the other 'long cons' he's pulled over).

To rephrase, very little of the story has truly been spur of the moment or without precedent. Beyond Danzou and a few other relevant characters and events, most of the story has been fairly organic with the only real plot holes developing around illogical character actions. True there has been some retconning involved throughout (for example: Hashirama - but even that retcon began fairly early on, as early as the end of Part I), but even that isn't bad, just annoying.

Originally Posted by yogotah

I 'm a big Itachi fan so I like the idea of him always been a "good moral" guy, but I have to admit what he did in the past was fucked up and can't truly be justified given the information that we have, maybe new info will come later that validates it but as of now, no.

Why must it be justified? Itachi chose an easy way out of his dilemma. He knew he did wrong, he knew he was bad. It's everyone else that tries to make him seem good. Frankly, I'm shocked that other characters, Sasuke included, continue to deluded themselves into thinking Itachi was a "good" guy. He wasn't. He even said he wasn't. He was a weak willed individual that gave up on his clan and himself. That's why he left everything to Naruto (just like all the other "failed" shinobi that couldn't or wouldn't achieve their dreams of peace), because he knew that only Naruto had the strength - the will - to change the world (yes plot contrivance, but whatever).

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by james0246

I don't really think you can say Kishimoto never had ulterior motives for Itachi. Yes he was introduced as a monstrous villain, but by the time the first Uchiha flashback occurred (190? thereabouts), everything we thought we knew about the character had been turned on its head. Yes, the reasoning for the massacre are still somewhat (very) stupid, on all sides, but Itachi's eventual reveal as a peace-loving assassin forced to kill was a very straightforward storyline filled with mounting evidence and lots of little details.

I definitely wouldn't say mounting evidence, by watching Naruto part I, you could never have had a realistic conjecture that Itachi didn't kill his clan for any other reason than the ones mentioned at the time. Remember, Hindsight is always 20/20, and a lot of little details where given us to us through flashbacks after the first part of Naruto which is when I assume that Kishi started having different plans for Itachi then he did on the first part.

Even the flashbacks you mentioned that happenned during the first naruto sasuke fight around 190 were really more of a backup to the old notion that Itachi was so evil that he even pretended to be Sasuke's big brother until he got tired of playing along. When watching it at that time, that was the interpretation that everyone took. Now, with the new information that we have, you can nickpick and say "wow, Itachi's teaching Sasuke how to throw Kunais, well that must be evidence of him loving his brother this whole time. "....No, that's not how we interpreted it at the time of viewing, and we can't assume that Kishi had any other plans for Itachi after the fact because of later revelation, especially if later revelation is somewhat inconsistent with what we know.

To me, Itachi was always meant to be a pitiful anti-villain, doing awful things for supposedly good reasons. And I doubt Kishimoto decide to change Itachi's initial storyline too much (especially considering some of the other 'long cons' he's pulled over).

This is where we disagree, I really don't believe that that was the first intent of the author with the character of Itachi at all, the same way that his intent with Hashirama changed over time, the one with Hashirama happens to be more obvious that's all.

I'm not saying this is bad...not at all, I like the new developments that we've had, but I don't think saying this story is organic is a good way to describe this manga. I may be wrong....and correct me if I am, but I read somewhere years ago that Kishi doesn't even plan his manga in advance..meaning that when he wrote chapter one, he didn't have in mind what chapter 200 would be about. So in a sense, this story is kind of a spur of the moment kind of thing, honestly I like this freestyle type of writing but that does open up a lot of chances for plot holes, and most of all inconsistencies that have to ,later, be cleaned by flashback revelations.

Why must it be justified? Itachi chose an easy way out of his dilemma. He knew he did wrong, he knew he was bad. It's everyone else that tries to make him seem good. Frankly, I'm shocked that other characters, Sasuke included, continue to deluded themselves into thinking Itachi was a "good" guy. He wasn't. He even said he wasn't. He was a weak willed individual that gave up on his clan and himself. That's why he left everything to Naruto (just like all the other "failed" shinobi that couldn't or wouldn't achieve their dreams of peace), because he knew that only Naruto had the strength - the will - to change the world (yes plot contrivance, but whatever).

If Itachi is to be made into a good guy, then his action HAS to be justified...or by definition you aren't good. So my premise is just that he can't be a good guy if he's not cleared of any wrongdoing, but if he can be justified then he can roam with the stoic, or even sacrificial heroics people. But you make a good point, even Itachi himself declared himself a weak man, and his action were weak...Naruto would have found a better way to solve the situation ( some talk no jutsu perhaps lol) so in a sense even Itachi knows that he's a villain and if that's the case then you're absolutely right. I'm just making the point that if we assume that Itachi can be classified into the "good" guy category, then his actions against Sasuke and the clan necesseraily has to be justified.