Nanoha Cross-over Discussion Thread

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I disagree with that. Louise might be absurdly unreasonable with Saito, but she's not heartless. Once she meets Arf's family and finds out the mind tricking part of the runes, she would see reason. A bit reluctantly, perhaps. Out of fear of losing Arf, but Louise would not hold Arf against her will. Despite her act, she's not a slaver, and indeed usually speaks out against slavery every time it comes up.

So she holds double standards regarding it, considering that you did say she treats Saito poorly, or at least "absurdly unreasonable".
What guarantee would there be that she'd treat Arf or Yuuno any better than Saito? "Accidental pervert" aside...

[Keroko]

Exactly that. Her unreasonable treatment stems at first from her disappointment at Saito being a commoner, and later from the accidental (and not-so-accidental) perversion. Neither of these apply to Arf.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Exactly that. Her unreasonable treatment stems at first from her disappointment at Saito being a commoner, and later from the accidental (and not-so-accidental) perversion. Neither of these apply to Arf.

Except Arf doesn't fit into any social hierarchy, as far as I know, so "commoner" is a moot point.
"Accidental perversion" doesn't make what she does any more "right".
Also, I was thinking of Yuuno as another possibility for the idea. But I guess you don't care to think of him as a possible choice for the idea...same old same old.

[Keroko]

She's a familiar, and a proper one at that. As such Louise is bound to treat her more fairly than she did Saito. Saito was taken by everyone, including Louise, that she botched up yet one more spell. Hence, a disappointment in her eyes, which combined with Saito's personality led to an explosive combination to Louise's temper.

And I'm not saying her treatment of Saito was right, I'm saying that it simply would not happen the same way with Arf.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

She's a familiar, and a proper one at that. As such Louise is bound to treat her more fairly than she did Saito. Saito was taken by everyone, including Louise, that she botched up yet one more spell. Hence, a disappointment in her eyes, which combined with Saito's personality led to an explosive combination to Louise's temper.

And I'm not saying her treatment of Saito was right, I'm saying that it simply would not happen with Arf.

Would they even be able to recognize that Arf is a "proper familiar", though? Considering the other familiars in ZnT...
And Arf has four forms, two of which, IIRC, run on Fate's magic.

And you didn't reply to the possibility of Yuuno...^^;

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Exactly that. Her unreasonable treatment stems at first from her disappointment at Saito being a commoner, and later from the accidental (and not-so-accidental) perversion. Neither of these apply to Arf.

Let's take it one step further in the case of Arf. The connection between Mistress and a genuine bona-fide experienced familiar is likely to be even more intimate than a normal human familiar in the ZnT verse , because Arf has essentially lived the bulk of her life with that kind of connection. It's not unreasonable for her to understand to milk it for what it's worth. Like sharing emotions with her mistress , and vice-versa.

Number two: Arf likely understands far better than most potential summons what Louise might expect , and what a familiar entails , adjusted for cultural percularities ans for the vagueness of the Halkagenian contract after all. That's another source of nastiness thrown out of the window.

Number three: Arf might accede to many of Louise's earliest demands without a complaint , given how used she is to doing a domestic role ,though she might snark at Louise if Louise demands to be dressed. By questioning Louise's mental maturity.

Number four : Louise has summoned a powerful familiar after all. Just as she had asked. A powerful , highly knowledgeable familiar.

Number five : Not only that , the Familiar is in a good position to be a teacher to her , and to resolve her most desperate wish - to be a mage.

Number six: Arf can very well point out that if Louise is truly a Zero with no magics , Arf shouldn't even be sustained by rights. And Arf could probably tell Louise bluntly about just how shockingly powerful and vast , if inefficiently utilized her mana pool is.

Number seven: Arf is not a pervert nor an idiot. All of Saito's hair-raising antics are likely to be averted.

Number eight: If Cattleya's love for animals rubbed of on Louise hard enough (and indeed , it's implied in the Light Novels) , then once Arf successfully reverts back to her Big Badass Wolf form , I'd expect that'd be enough to convince Louise that really summoned an awesome familiar.


On the lost Logia issue , I'd imagine the Founder's Prayer Book might well be a very inert Lost Logia. It'd take a TASB Lab specializing in such matters to reactive that. Until Louise finds her way to the TASB (which is a very interesting possibility) , the Lost Logia status might well be just something Arf suspects , based on a basic and brief scan.

Though alot depends on what Arf's knowledge specialty was. How much did she understood varying magical systems , and how good is she at identifying Lost Logias? Given the fact that she's more or less Yuuno's assistant , and the fact that she has raised mages and likely taken up a Linith like role before (or several times), I'd expect that it'll be plausible that she can both act as a Teacher to Louise , and be able to identify Lost Logias for what they are.

That being said , if we are going to turn all of those artifacts like the Staff of Destruction into Lost Logias or TSAB technology accidentally finding it's way to Halkagenia , I'd expect canon to quickly dissolve to bits once the first battle with Mathilda occurs.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

Would they even be able to recognize that Arf is a "proper familiar", though? Considering the other familiars in ZnT...
And Arf has four forms, two of which, IIRC, run on Fate's magic.

And you didn't reply to the possibility of Yuuno...^^;

I'd expect that even if Arf was stuck in her pure human form (no dog ears , no tail) , the very fact that she knows what is to be expected of a Familiar would be a huge advantage here.

I wonder whether she'll object to sleeping on a Straw bed meant for an animal. After all , she's one , and she probably knows it and is proud of it. The only issue in a human! Shapeshift-locked Arf is how she's going to tell Louise that her human form is not her true form.

But then again , Arf being a True , bona-fide familiar is just one of several other factors of why Louise's Tsun and abusive tendecies are not likely to surface here. I'd advice you read the Hill of Swords for some idea of what I'm talking about here. It's a very good work , but that's Off topic.

As for the Yuuno idea , I'd imagine the out-cry would be huge in the TSAB. I think Louise might well be charged for kidnapping a Senior TSAB official! But , it's an interesting concept too.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Let's take it one step further in the case of Arf. The connection between Mistress and a genuine bona-fide experienced familiar is likely to be even more intimate than a normal human familiar in the ZnT verse , because Arf has essentially lived the bulk of her life with that kind of connection. It's not unreasonable for her to understand to milk it for what it's worth. Like sharing emotions with her mistress , and vice-versa.

Number five : Not only that , the Familiar is in a good position to be a teacher to her , and to resolve her most desperate wish - to be a mage.

Though alot depends on what Arf's knowledge specialty was. How much did she understood varying magical systems , and how good is she at identifying Lost Logias...

I'd like to go ahead and say that Arf could do well in such an unfamiliar setting...maybe.

...I highly doubt Louise listen to a familiar on how to use magic. T_T;

...and since when were Lost Logia involved. ^^;


I've read Hill of Swords. I liked it, but we're talking about Arf or Yuuno, not that.

[Keroko]

On the Lost Logia, while it's plausible to change everything I personally prefer to alter as little as I can in terms of either world's backgrounds.

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

Would they even be able to recognize that Arf is a "proper familiar", though? Considering the other familiars in ZnT...
And Arf has four forms, two of which, IIRC, run on Fate's magic.

Given that familiars in Nanohaverse terms share a rather tangible link? Yes. Also, what Nova said.

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

And you didn't reply to the possibility of Yuuno...^^;

I believe we already debated Yuuno a few pages back, but frankly, I find the idea of summoning a girl to be much more entertaining, since it'd force a different way of writing Louise as the tsun card can't be pulled the same way anymore.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

On the Lost Logia, while it's plausible to change everything I personally prefer to alter as little as I can in terms of either world's backgrounds.

Given that familiars in Nanohaverse terms share a rather tangible link? Yes. Also, what Nova said.

I believe we already debated Yuuno a few pages back, but frankly, I find the idea of summoning a girl to be much more entertaining, since it'd force a different way of writing Louise as the tsun card can't be pulled the same way anymore.

Except that Nanoha-verse familiars do not equal ZnT-verse familiars. There are differences there that seem to be being ignored with this.

Was the debate related to the ZnT idea? Or no? Then it's still a possible discussion point.
...so Louise has double-standards and her Tsun is sexist. Wow, wonderful. ^^;

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

Except that Nanoha-verse familiars do not equal ZnT-verse familiars. There are differences there that seem to be being ignored with this.

I am aware, but unlike Saito, the difference here would make the summoning seem more special rather than a failure.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I am aware, but unlike Saito, the difference here would make the summoning seem more special rather than a failure.

But what connection would Arf have to "Gandalfr"? Or "Void"?
And before, during, or after what season of Nanoha would this Arf or Yuuno be from?
...if it were around StrikerS or after that, Arf would be more than likely stuck in her Chibi-Okamimimi form. Yuuno more than likely would get nearly the exact same treatment as Saito, but wouldn't stand for it happening.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I am aware, but unlike Saito, the difference here would make the summoning seem more special rather than a failure.

It's the different nature of the Familiar bond that creates the Uniqueness. The generic question however is What if Halkagenia lies in the same dimensional sea as Mid-Childa?

But what connection would Arf have to "Gandalfr"? Or "Void"?
And before, during, or after what season of Nanoha would this Arf or Yuuno be from?
...if it were around StrikerS or after that, Arf would be more than likely stuck in her Chibi-Okamimimi form. Yuuno more than likely would get nearly the exact same treatment as Saito, but wouldn't stand for it happening.

Short answer: what on Earth has Saito to do with the Void? So far as we know , he does not have any Halkagenian ancestry.

On the second matter , I'd say it depends on the author. I personally favor one or two decades after Striker S (= - Post Force , in other words.

Third matter: If Yuuno comes over with his magic intact , I'd say he can gag Louise up rather good if he wanted to. Struggle Bind anyone? That'd prove to Louise beyond a doubt that she is dealing with a mage here.

But Arf is more interesting since Louise is summoning a genuine familiar that can pass for a human if she needs to. A real , true blue familiar. The dynamics can be very , very unique.

And on the other issue of Louise learning magics from Arf : believe it or not , this has become more or less a cliche on the Spacebattles ZnT crossover thread, whenever a Mage Familiar is involved...

But still , plausible. The desire to truly not be a Zero is a very strong part of Louise's psyche.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

But what connection would Arf have to "Gandalfr"? Or "Void"?

The runes, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Lycodrake

And before, during, or after what season of Nanoha would this Arf or Yuuno be from?

Dunno, but from what Nova said, post-StrikerS at least.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The runes, I suppose.

Dunno, but from what Nova said, post-StrikerS at least.

The same runes that basically mind-rape the familiar into being more obedient to the Void mage? T_T;

[Keroko]

Yeah, all things have to start somewhere, no? And speaking of which... is Louise even aware of what the runes do?

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yeah, all things have to start somewhere, no? And speaking of which... is Louise even aware of what the runes do?

I haven't read all the way through the manga, or watched the entire anime, so I can't say for certain.
But ignorance doesn't make it any better. It might even make it worse, all things considered.

[Keroko]

Ignorance makes a ton of difference, actually. It would certainly make Louise a lot more receptive to changing the terms of her contract.

[Lycodrake]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Ignorance makes a ton of difference, actually. It would certainly make Louise a lot more receptive to changing the terms of her contract.

But would she be able to change the terms of the contract between Void mage and Void familiar, though? I'm honestly curious about that...

...and I can't seem to see Arf or Yuuno using Derflinger. XP

[Keroko]

Yes, Derf would have no logical place in the story. That's something that needs to be worked around.

As for familiar contract, I'd say that once contact is re-established Yuuno would be on the case stat. Maybe working with Colbert to boot (hoo boy would those two have stories to share).