Sword Art Online - "Real-World" and Legal Implications [Speculation, NO Spoilers]

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I think they'd definitely care, but they wouldn't care about the game. It'd just be a big terrorist attack that left a lot of victims. They'd yell a lot about the game industry and the government for letting this happen, but the idea that the people in comas are actually doing something and possibly responsible for the deaths of others likely wouldn't come up nearly as often. There'd be a big manhunt for Kayaba, "the worst terrorist in history" but even when it means life and death no one's going to care about a video game.

Well, you could be right. I do think a lot of people would think "Who cares about PKers? The person really responsible for all these deaths is Kayaba!"

On the other hand...

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Yeah, I agree. That's actually part of what makes the premise of Sword Art Online so fascinating to me, the understanding that it would be such a notorious scandal. It would be a very famous, very dark period in history that would tarnish the public's faith in Virtual Reality games for a long time, much like the explosion of the Challenger still has some people wary of space shuttles 26 years later.

... Can you imagine what someone like Jack Thompson would do and say in the wake of SAO?

Frightening thought, no?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

If you follow those tortured analogies, then I think someone could make a pretty good case that the rules that would apply in the real world should apply in the game world, even though there's no way of proving their "permanent" consequences. If someone in the real world were to go on a killing spree believe they're freeing everyone and sending them to heaven, we'd still incarcerate them for murder. So, if someone in the game world is killing people out of a belief that "maybe they won't really die", it's not so different. It raises the question of, if that's true, why don't they test that theory on themselves (unless they have some sort of Saviour complex... but I don't think that's what motivates most of the PKs we've seen...)

Don't get me wrong, personally I would not mind one bit if the PKers gets prosecuted, but I'm just saying that it's not nearly as easy as some seems to think it would be in the legal system, especially for something that was as radically different and unprecedented like SAO was.

I mean, really, prosecutors in the US couldn't even charge people for blatant cases of cyber-bullying at first until the legislature caught up, and people think there would be no issue when trying to charge people for murder for PK in a MMO?

[Znail]

There are several problems with prosecuting the PKers. The first one would be that there can only be one murder of the same person, so you can't both prosecute the PKer and the guy that set up SOA in the first place. If you chose to prosecute the PKer then you will set the precedent where the blame lies for the deaths and the one who set it all up would go free. It would also mean that anyone who caused the death of someone in SOA by accident or failure to act would be guilty of causing someones death, wich while not as severe as murder would still be a crime. Reckless endangerment etc.

The other is that there are no physical evidence of any kind. There may be some who saw some of the PK happen, but then we get word against word. I would think only a very low number of actualy cases would be clear cut with having multiple witnesses.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Znail

The other is that there are no physical evidence of any kind. There may be some who saw some of the PK happen, but then we get word against word. I would think only a very low number of actualy cases would be clear cut with having multiple witnesses.

This basically depends on whether they can get access to the logs in the wake of all this. It should be very clear in the game logs how every player in the game was killed and by what/whom.

Originally Posted by kyp275

I mean, really, prosecutors in the US couldn't even charge people for blatant cases of cyber-bullying at first until the legislature caught up, and people think there would be no issue when trying to charge people for murder for PK in a MMO?

Well, fair enough -- whether charges are actually pressed or not is not clear. I agree that the lack of precedent makes this especially tricky. By the same token, if the aforementioned logs became available, I assume the families would be demanding justice. It's unclear whether punishing the person who fabricated the whole scenario is enough to say that justice has been served... but expecting everyone else to understand all the subtleties of went on would be a big challenge and could take years to orchestrate. (Then again, I imagine that some who get out of this mess may have some motivation to pursue that path...)

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This basically depends on whether they can get access to the logs in the wake of all this. It should be very clear in the game logs how every player in the game was killed and by what/whom.

Of course, even with that you run into problems like "self defense".

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This basically depends on whether they can get access to the logs in the wake of all this. It should be very clear in the game logs how every player in the game was killed and by what/whom.

Barring multiple eye-witnesses, though, many PKers could just claim self-defense. Edit: Looks like I was ninja'd on that particular point, lol.


And, you know, I'm not sure how much of a stomach people will have for going after PKers once they get out of the game. I imagine a lot of the people who clear SAO and get back into the real world are going to want to forget about SAO forever.

The more infamous PKers I think could be in trouble due to multiple eye-witnesses and enraged family members of the victims. But aside from them...

[Znail]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This basically depends on whether they can get access to the logs in the wake of all this. It should be very clear in the game logs how every player in the game was killed and by what/whom.

The answer to this would obviously be a spoiler so can't be answered here. But I would like to point out that this type of considerations are the main idea behind the novels. The actualy effect on people from the virtual reality: psychological, legal, social etc. So it's not like this discussion is somehow derailed from the main idea of the story, far from it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Of course, even with that you run into problems like "self defense".

Maybe sometimes, but not always. For example, if it's a high-level player performing a Sleep-PK on a helpless n00b, that's pretty obvious because the level differences are clear. Not everyone poses an equal threat to everyone else and, in fact, the threat they pose is quantifiable. Besides, who knows how much other information is recorded in those logs? Every attack, every gesture, even every conversation could be saved -- it's all taking place inside a virtual world, after all. Unlike real life, there's no expectation of privacy anywhere you go; it's all taking place on a server.

Now again, that's sort of notwithstanding whether anyone actually would pursue charges or not. I'm just thinking about whether there would be grounds to do so.

Originally Posted by Znail

The answer to this would obviously be a spoiler so can't be answered here.

Well, to be clear, I wasn't "asking", just speculating.

(And I don't think this topic is "derailing" the conversation, only that it goes beyond the scope of an episode thread, hence makes more sense in its own thread.)

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

... Can you imagine what someone like Jack Thompson would do and say in the wake of SAO?

Frightening thought, no?

That's quite frightening. It would certainly embolden the moral guardians after a long march towards more Video Game access. If I think some parents were already strict about access to technology in today's society, I am much more frightened at the aftermath/attitudes towards digital technology in certain cultures and groups.

[Rakshasa]

As the instigator of this thread, I find the answers somewhat dissatisfactory. Likely the compounding of a game world with RL consequences muddles the waters, so let's look at a hypothetical situation.

If Kayaba had locked up 100 people in a large cavern with enough food, water and facilities to survive, and some unclear objective that was required to reach in order to be released. Each has a couple of devices around their neck and affixed to their right hand, the former kills them if they fail some task on the way to clearing the objective, or just at random if they don't do anything, and the latter is a gun of some sort.

They cannot remove either without losing their heads.

Now it is obvious that Kayaba would be criminally responsible for every single death no matter what, however what would happen if someone started using the gun to shoot other people?

An insanity plea could be used in most modern democracies as a valid defence, however it isn't normally enough to just say the stress of imminent death got too much to handle. What one looks for is a real loss of understanding of what is real and not, not merely acting upon frustration and rage.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

Now it is obvious that Kayaba would be criminally responsible for every single death no matter what, however what would happen if someone started using the gun to shoot other people?

No?

You know, I think the problem here is that laws aren't really built to deal with cartoon super-villainy.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No?

You know, I think the problem here is that laws aren't really built to deal with cartoon super-villainy.

That never stopped Jack McCoy.

Hmm ... somebody needs to write a Law and Order: SAO fanfic.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

That never stopped Jack McCoy.

So sad they cut that show

The original was the best by far.

[sky black swordman]

^ Off topic but I beg to differ.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No?

You know, I think the problem here is that laws aren't really built to deal with cartoon super-villainy.

The law has not been built to deal with lots of stuff up through the ages, but there are ways of applying old laws to new situations.

Basically my example is a more complex version of the many prolonged hostage situations that have happened through history. One hostage killing another on their own volition is a case they're quite capable of handling.

In Norway, it goes so far that even if someone threatens you with death unless you kill another person, you're still going to be convicted for murder if you had more than half a minute or so to think it through.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No?

You know, I think the problem here is that laws aren't really built to deal with cartoon super-villainy.

How is it a no?

I locked a bomb into you, knowing full well that it can (and probably will) kill you, even if it depends solely on your action. How am I not responsible if you really turned up dead?

"Ohh, how stupid. I told him not to do that. Now look at the mess he left behind!"

Edit: btw to be clear, that's in the context of Rakshasha's latest example.

As for what happened in SAO...I'd say PKers are responsible of the deaths of those they murder, and not necessarily Kayaba. Though I see how it would be difficult to impossible in bringing them to justice. Unless there is a physical evidence like a data in the servers recording the players or event logs.

[sky black swordman]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

How is it a no?

I locked a bomb into you, knowing full well that it can (and probably will) kill you, even if it depends solely on your action. How am I not responsible if you really turned up dead?

"Ohh, how stupid. I told him not to do that. Now look at the mess he left behind!"

Edit: btw to be clear, that's in the context of Rakshasha's latest example.

As for what happened in SAO...I'd say PKers are responsible of the deaths of those they murder, and not necessarily Kayaba. Though I see how it would be difficult to impossible in bringing them to justice. Unless there is a physical evidence like a data in the servers recording the players or event logs.

This is true in a way however would they have killed if had not Kayaba imprisoned them in SAO.
But then its not like he told to go out and start killing.

[lightsenshi]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

As for what happened in SAO...I'd say PKers are responsible of the deaths of those they murder, and not necessarily Kayaba. Though I see how it would be difficult to impossible in bringing them to justice. Unless there is a physical evidence like a data in the servers recording the players or event logs.

The PKers would indeed be responsible for those whom they killed. In fact, unless it's clear self-defense (the ability or lack thereof to prove same is another issue). All PK should be treated as premeditated (because PK seems to require planning to some degree or another), especially sleep PK; and an insanity plea would be as difficult to prove as self-defense.

PK typically takes two forms, based on my experience with MMOs. Either consensual (dueling) or non-consensual. In the former case, you have to actively seek out an opponent. This can either be any location or specified locations (arenas). Non-consensual usually involves "flagging up" or actively switching to a mode that allows you to attack (and be attacked by) other players. Both are obviously premeditated....

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The slow, painful trickle of deaths would cause SAO to be something of a constant cloud over Japan. I honestly think it would be on people's minds the way the Iraq war was on Americans' minds in the first few years after it.

Don't forget... there are no pictures of the conflict. There are no scenes of the tragedy to keep things fresh in people's minds. There are no war torn streets or affected civilians living in SAO who cry when the military bombs their houses.

I understand what you're saying, and I think the heavy weight of all those kids trapped in coma's would be kept present in people's minds... but comparing the future of a nation and all it's inhabitants to 10,000 kids stuck in a death game... is a tad bit off.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, I think that SAO could be to Japan what 9/11 and the Iraq war combined were to America. You have the sudden death of thousands of innocent people at the hands of a terrorist, just like 9/11. Then you have the slow, painful trickle of deaths just like the Iraq war.


I think some people here might be drastically underestimating how much the Japanese public would care about something like SAO happening in the actual real world (i.e. in our world).

It's virtually impossible to be sure, my point is still that there's no imagery (other than that same shot of kids asleep in a bed). It's really hard to say what the absence of imagery would do to the modern day news reports regarding 911 or the wars in the middle east.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Yeah, I agree. That's actually part of what makes the premise of Sword Art Online so fascinating to me, the understanding that it would be such a notorious scandal. It would be a very famous, very dark period in history that would tarnish the public's faith in Virtual Reality games for a long time, much like the explosion of the Challenger still has some people wary of space shuttles 26 years later.

It should certainly push for a LOT of new regulation, government oversight, and much more attention being paid to the state of VR games as a whole after the incident.

Originally Posted by Znail

There are several problems with prosecuting the PKers. The first one would be that there can only be one murder of the same person, so you can't both prosecute the PKer and the guy that set up SOA in the first place. If you chose to prosecute the PKer then you will set the precedent where the blame lies for the deaths and the one who set it all up would go free. It would also mean that anyone who caused the death of someone in SOA by accident or failure to act would be guilty of causing someones death, wich while not as severe as murder would still be a crime. Reckless endangerment etc.

To stay on topic, that's an excellent point. You've already set up Kayaba as the evil mastermind and you're hunting him over the death of thousands of player's... how well can you prosecute a (for example) 17 year-old kid who used Kayaba's game to murder a few dozen SAO avatars.

This thread needs a lawyer to grace us with a few seconds of his time Or for someone to dig out the archives and distill the old conversation about the legal side from wherever it was before.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Adigard

It's virtually impossible to be sure, my point is still that there's no imagery (other than that same shot of kids asleep in a bed). It's really hard to say what the absence of imagery would do to the modern day news reports regarding 911 or the wars in the middle east.

Not really refuting you, but this makes me think.

How would our head look like if our brain's fried off with microwave? Would our brain matter ooze out of every crevice? or would it outright explode? I really don't know since I've never seen it happening before me. And what's the chance of a freelance journalist managing to capture those images?

Originally Posted by Adigard

I understand what you're saying, and I think the heavy weight of all those kids trapped in coma's would be kept present in people's minds... but comparing the future of a nation and all it's inhabitants to 10,000 kids stuck in a death game... is a tad bit off.

You're right. It's off. Every life is precious. It's not right to ignore 10000 kids who has nothing better to do than play games.