[Manga] Chapter 443 Discussion

[james0246]

^Or, Sage Mode could create an even greater weakness becuase if Naruto loses his concetration for even a second he will be turned into a Toad.

[Sazelyt]

With that technique, he was above anyone else, to begin with. I am sure with all this fighting he has already mastered it to a level that turning to a toad will not happen. If we also consider that Jiraiya has failed to reach Naruto's current level, despite his expertise in the field and his (near-)lifetime experience of using that, we can actually say, Sage mode is actually created with Naruto in mind.

Sasuke needs to prevent Naruto from ever gathering the Sage chakra during a fight, but we already know that by keeping clones in the other dimension gathering Sage chakra, this can easily be prevented. And, who can say that he will never find a way to even make this idea look like a childish way of doing things.

[HazardNights]

Originally Posted by james0246

I can kind of understand Hinata (not that much, considering that she is roughly equvalent to Sakura pre-Hokage apprentice (in so much as she only focuses on her crush and appears to do very little of anything else)), but why Ino? Ino hasn't done one substantive thing in the entire series. The only "deep" conversation she has ever had, was solely to enhance Sakura's character development, and besides that she has done nothing of interest. Hell, her father has more development than she does.

It's not what she has done but her general presentation and her powers. I found it just more interesting from the very start. Sakura has clearly done a lot more in terms of story but that still hasn't made me like her or even interested in learning more about her. Sakura always came off as nasty loudmouth who worshiped Sasuke. She was never appealing to me as a character. The more I saw of her the more turned off to her I became. That has never really changed. She just happens to be older but she's still the same just a bit nicer to Naruto.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Plus, people quote it way too much now (yours truly guilty as charged).

I do as well, it is the only way to explain anything

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

With that technique, he was above anyone else, to begin with. I am sure with all this fighting he has already mastered it to a level that turning to a toad will not happen. If we also consider that Jiraiya has failed to reach Naruto's current level, despite his expertise in the field and his (near-)lifetime experience of using that, we can actually say, Sage mode is actually created with Naruto in mind.

It is uncertain what genjutsu could do to someone who uses Sage Mode because even Jiraiya who had sage mode was weak against genjutsu and I am assuming he meant in sage mode as well. The training may increase the strength of the mind but Tsuyokomi was created to break of the persons will with severe mental pain and you need someone on the level of Tsunade just to ease the pain.

[Sazelyt]

I was talking about regular low- or high-level genjutsu techniques. I already mentioned my views on MS, and that is a part I believe Itachi's fragment in Naruto may play.

Still, regardless of Itachi's presence inside Naruto, the encounter between MS and Sage mode may still be an open-ended encounter, since they both create unnatural power-bursts at significant levels. We may also need to know more about the history of ninja to find out the potential results of an encounter at this level. Don't forget that we still don't know how exactly Shodai beat and survived the highest level of MS. I am not saying Shodai was a Sage chakra user, but someone capable of controlling tailed-beasts may also know a way of entering the world of summons more freely than another.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sasuke's powers lie mostly in Ninjutsu and speed, though powerful Genjutsu has never been his weapon of choice contrary to his brother.
I don't think Genjutsu was Pain's weakness, it was a good choice of attack against Deva/Peta realm because physical attacks were more difficult to land on them but from Human realm ability to read mind and the powerful Genjutsu defense Nagato built within the mind of the Rain ninja we can safely say that he is also quite good in Genjutsu.

I'll just answer both comments ok

Originally Posted by james0246

Sasuke has never been a Genjutsus expert. He has always been a Ninjutsu and partially Taijutsu/Speed expert. Rather, he learned and refined his genjutsu just to fight Itachi, who is a true Genjutsu Master.

Edit: Damn my lollygagging! It seems Hunter already addressed this point.

Ok.. well he was able to get out of Tsukyomi which is probably the worst genjutsu for a victim and the best genjutsu in the series. Isn't it save to claim that he "IS" a genjutsu master now? But perhaps he doesnt use it. He still is good to handle it.

[Sazelyt]

Him getting out of Tsukiyomi does not say more about him than his control over Kyuubi. To me it basically says Sasuke has reached and went past the point of being suppressed by Genjutsu, regardless of who casts it. And, his potential in Genjutsu is higher than his brother's. The only person left in the series that can do something about this is Madara, and it is likely that Madara is at most his equal.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Him getting out of Tsukiyomi does not say more about him than his control over Kyuubi. To me it basically says Sasuke has reached and went past the point of being suppressed by Genjutsu, regardless of who casts it. And, his potential in Genjutsu is higher than his brother's. The only person left in the series that can do something about this is Madara, and it is likely that Madara is at most his equal.

I am not sure if that is quite true. Through a combination of Sasuke's enate Sharingan abilities, as well as his extreme emotions/hate, and the physical pain caused by the CS, Sasuke was able to break free of the Tsukuyomi (Actually this is all debatable, the only thing we know for certain is that a MS is required to break free of the Tsukuyomi, so how Sasuke broke free is a little mysterious). But, true mastery of genjutsu is seen when Itachi is able to reverse a genjutsu back at his opponent, or when Itachi is able to cast a genjutsu from one finger. Sasuke has shown more ability to pierce genjutsus than to actually cast them (he can, of course, cast them, but he is not as profficient as Itachi has been shown to be).

Not that any of this matters right now.

My predicition for next chapter is the same one I have been prediciting for awhile: Hanzou is an asshole, and he killed Yahiko . Or, at least this is what I hope...

[Sazelyt]

I wasn't referring to his current ability of casting Genjutsu, rather another person casting Genjutsu on him, and how he can perform against that. For his ability regarding Genjutsu, or mastery as you were referring to, we are expected to believe that he will most likely become better than his brother, but that is all. How he currently is something we cannot surely know. Thanks to his S and MS, he should be above most of the other characters in the series. Still we can guess about that level. Considering that he got A+ training results from Orochimaru, a supposedly master of Genjutsu, Sasuke should be well above almost all the rest (shrinking the set of better rest a bit more). In a way, that is enough to consider him a master, even though he has yet to show those results to us.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by james0246

My predicition for next chapter is the same one I have been prediciting for awhile: Hanzou is an asshole, and he killed Yahiko . Or, at least this is what I hope...

I'm guessing more of Yahiko died when they were teens and they were lugging Yahiko's body around everywhere trying to find a way to revive him when Nagato discovered a new use for his Rin'negan

[Apollian]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Hmm....you could think of a few things that would turn thing in Sasuke's favor.
1# Starting with the top. The condition of the Hokage is unknown. But i think it's safe to "assume" that another stunt from Tsunade to waste so much chakra to save everyone is going to be her last. For all we know Tsunade dies at the end of the arc.

2# The ninja that were defeated by Sasuke were a bunch of nameless, unknown who seemed more like a bunch of robbers. They werent part of the great 5 shinobi villages/country's. Like Lightning village, Rock village, Konoha, Sand and the mist village. But it was probably to show that Sasuke was on the same level as Orochimaru who could probably do the same thing but not at Sasuke's age.
Sasuke proved to have more talent.

3# Sasuke's power lies in genjutsu. Naruto faced the right opponent. Who could use pretty much anything but wasnt a specialist in genjutsu. Which is possibly the weakness for both Nagato (Pain) and Naruto. I think team Hawk won't pose a threat for Naruto at all. I think Pain would destroy team Hawk but...it's leader Sasuke with his genjutsu might be the problem. But with his sennin mode he might do even better against genjutsu right now.


[/spoiler]

remember when Jirayai fought with Pein, Ma and Pa Frog used that song to
create a genjutsu, so its possible that Naruto could still learn how to use it.
the fact that Naruto is the only Human who's perfected Sage Mode, we really
still don't know what he can do...another thing is Ma should be there to teach
him. otherwise he'll have to learn everything now himself.

[caleb723]

Originally Posted by Supermutant

I think Neji was questioning whether Naruto was in proper condition to handle the remaining matters alone. He's not really doubting Naruto's integrity so much as naturally questioning the capabilities of one person to do everything on their own.

Well, I thought that, but then I wasn't sure. Neji should know firsthand that Naruto has superhuman stamina and willpower, and now even more so. It concerned me the way he so quickly assumed Naruto was tired. From the standpoint of someone who doesn't know what Naruto is capable, sure, that's acceptable. Neji got the "Naruto talk," though, and still manages to not have total faith like everyone else.

Meh, I must be making a big deal out of nothing.

[Midnight Commander]

I don’t like the way things are turning out. I know people (for some reason) love the typical “shounen” where the hero “always” wins and is “always” the strongest but that’s just bullshit to me. I actually like that this story wasn’t following the typical shounen path, and now it seems its turning into the typical bullshit.

For one, I don’t like the way they made Guy and Neji look like a bunch of goons. “Getting in naruto’s way?” Neji and Guy? Shit, after naruto and Sasuke Neji is pretty much the best of his generation; and he is a brilliant strategist, close to Shikamaru. Neji and Guy shouldn’t be a hindrance to naruto’s fight at all. At all.

The Naruto and Pein fight was a good fight and all, but it was funny to see naruto stand on top of the gravity ball like it was nothing. Come on. The 4, 6, and 8 tails couldn’t even do that. And this sage mode of his is kind of broken; yeah most of us ARE naruto fans and all and he definitely had powerups coming to him, but honestly, this is kinda bullshit. If you’re gonna complain about bullshit, its only right to do it all around the board.

[Kishimyu]

But Naruto has had little experience with Sage mode and they dont wont Naruto accidentally hurting an ally with is attacks. No one wants to get hit by an attack that can cut you to pieces then explode in your face.

Hmm....i have a theory, idk just a thought. I think Naruto will end up killing Sasuke in the end.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

I don’t like the way things are turning out. I know people (for some reason) love the typical “shounen” where the hero “always” wins and is “always” the strongest but that’s just bullshit to me. I actually like that this story wasn’t following the typical shounen path, and now it seems its turning into the typical bullshit.

Wha...? When has this series ever not been a Shounen series? True, it is a bit experimental at times, but it has always followed the motifs, tropes, and themes of Modern Shounen storytelling.

Added to that, Kishimoto more than adequately depowered/exhausted Pain just before their battle just to ensure the audience that Naruto is not quite at Pain's level yet. Added to that, since there is still the known shadow leader of Akatsuki to deal with, as well as his other lackeys (of which Pain/Nagato were partially a member of), and of course Sasuke and maybe Kabutomaru. So, Naruto still can't claim to hold any specific title of "strongest" just yet.

That being said, from about chapter 233 to 333, Naruto was losing all of his significant fights (lost to Deidara (partially), Sasuke (twice), and Orochimaru) then he defeated Kakuzu, but then he lost quite easily to Tobi/Madara (who was just playing around). So, Naruto has suffered his share of defeats in Part II, with this Pain fight being his true unveiling as a legitimate force within the Narutoverse.

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

For one, I don’t like the way they made Guy and Neji look like a bunch of goons. “Getting in naruto’s way?” Neji and Guy? Shit, after naruto and Sasuke Neji is pretty much the best of his generation; and he is a brilliant strategist, close to Shikamaru. Neji and Guy shouldn’t be a hindrance to naruto’s fight at all. At all.

Shikaku was the one who knew what Sage Mode was, and he told his group, including Tatsuya, that, just like with Jiraiya, it is better to stay out of the way of a fight that involves a person in Sage Mode. So, there was more than adequate talk from the older generation about leaving Naruto alone whilst he fought using Senjutsu. Added to that, the Tatsuya with Naruto knows what Naruto is going to do, and it knows that Naruto wants to be alone, so when it told Neji and Gai to stay away, it was as much for Naruto's benefit as it was for their benefit.

Added to that, quite honestly Neji and Gai (and Lee and Tenten) are goons now. The level of difference between Naruto's battle with Pain, and the average Shinobi battle, is simply too great to be overcome by someone of Gai's or Neji's strength. I mean, they couldn't even compete against a Kisame clone that was fighting at 1/3 capacity, so how would they even begin to fight Deva, let alone all of Pain (Shikimaru was also crushed like an insect by Pain, so it is not like Neji is getting worse treatment than the majority of the village).

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

The Naruto and Pein fight was a good fight and all, but it was funny to see naruto stand on top of the gravity ball like it was nothing. Come on. The 4, 6, and 8 tails couldn’t even do that. And this sage mode of his is kind of broken; yeah most of us ARE naruto fans and all and he definitely had powerups coming to him, but honestly, this is kinda bullshit. If you’re gonna complain about bullshit, its only right to do it all around the board.

The 8 Tails had already broken out by the time it was forced into submission (Deva even mentioned that he would have to restart the technique in order to contain the 8-Tale Kyuubi), and then once that happened, Nagato lost control of the technique, and it collapsed back to Earth. So, Naruto in Sage Mode did not defeat the technique, the Kyuubi did, Sage Mode Naruto simply reaped the benefits of the Kyuubi’s escape.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

It is uncertain what genjutsu could do to someone who uses Sage Mode because even Jiraiya who had sage mode was weak against genjutsu and I am assuming he meant in sage mode as well. The training may increase the strength of the mind but Tsuyokomi was created to break of the persons will with severe mental pain and you need someone on the level of Tsunade just to ease the pain.

How was J-man weak against Genjutsu? J-man knows how to defeat Genjutsu, he explained to Naruto how to defeat Genjutsu.

Originally Posted by james0246

^I consider Sasuke a fighter who, while specializing in certain fields (Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, and then his Sharingan), has no specific weakness (in regards to his physical abilities). Even his elemental weaknesses are mostly covered by knowing 2 elements. So, even if Genjutsu is not his go-to field of expertise, that does not mean that he hasn't practiced with the ability enough, it simply means that he is has always focused on Ninjutsu and Taijutsu the most.

That's why I like watching Saskue's battles because he always uses my favorite skill as a Shinobi the most and that is Taijutsu. He rarely depends on the other arts, using them as a last line of defense. I find Genjutsu and ninjtutsu [Depending what type] rather boring arts in fights. Itachi's Genjutsu's were boring but I liked Pains ninjutsu but I disliked Madara's space time jutsu cause phasing all over the place seems boring to me. That's one of the reasons why I like Naruto and Pains' battle cause it was more about skill, intuition, H2H type stuff. Characters really had to interact i nthat fight, not people just spamming illusions all day.

[Kafriel]

Sasuke's fights are good because he's a strategist, he can use his taijutsu to drive his opponents in a ninjutsu trap and defeat them. In the last few chapters, Naruto has shown this way of fighting too, instead of the typical "do your best and hope to win".

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by james0246

Wha...? When has this series ever not been a Shounen series?
True, it is a bit experimental at times, but it has always followed the motifs, tropes, and themes of Modern Shounen storytelling.
Added to that, Kishimoto more than adequately depowered/exhausted Pain just before their battle just to ensure the audience that Naruto is not quite at Pain's level yet. Added to that, since there is still the known shadow leader of Akatsuki to deal with, as well as his other lackeys (of which Pain/Nagato were partially a member of), and of course Sasuke and maybe Kabutomaru. So, Naruto still can't claim to hold any specific title of "strongest" just yet.

Firstly I never said it wasn’t a shounen manga, I only said it wasn’t following the typical path. I’m trying to say that its turning into the typical bullshit where there is only one guy who defeats the villains and has a stupid amount of power. He has a ridiculous amount of chakra as his normal self, and if he decides to go to sage or kyuubi for power its limitless – that’s what I was pointing out.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, from about chapter 233 to 333, Naruto was losing all of his significant fights

LOL. I’m not against him winning but this statement is false sir, so don’t misunderstand me talking about his fights, they’re not necessarily complaints.

Originally Posted by james0246

(lost to Deidara (partially)

They never really fought; and from what little fighting they DID go through, Naruto was on the upper hand.

Originally Posted by james0246

Sasuke (twice)

He lost to Sasuke once, the second time was a scuffle where Naruto and co. weren’t even using lethal force – while Sasuke was going full throttle. When the battle was REALLY going to start, Orochimaru stopped him and ran away as usual.

Originally Posted by james0246

Orochimaru

Orochimaru didn’t even dent naruto, while Naruto mangled him and forced him to have to run away. AGAIN. As usual.

Originally Posted by james0246

but then he lost quite easily to Tobi/Madara (who was just playing around).

Lol, you’re really molding things to fit your point now. This shouldn’t be called a “significant” fight for naruto, tobi was just messing around to stall for time, and naruto was fighting as part of a team – that wasn’t really one of “naruto’s fights”. None of them even got attacked.

Originally Posted by james0246

So, Naruto has suffered his share of defeats in Part II, with this Pain fight being his true unveiling as a legitimate force within the Narutoverse.

The only thing naruto suffered in part II was lack of air time. His fights looked lackluster because Sasuke’s fights looked better (except for hachibi of course ).

Originally Posted by james0246

Added to that, quite honestly Neji and Gai (and Lee and Tenten) are goons now.

when compared to some one who has the strength of the hulk, the speed of the flash and unlimited chakra, who wouldn’t be?

Originally Posted by james0246

The level of difference between Naruto's battle with Pain, and the average Shinobi battle, is simply too great to be overcome by someone of Gai's or Neji's strength. I mean, they couldn't even compete against a Kisame clone that was fighting at 1/3 capacity, so how would they even begin to fight Deva, let alone all of Pain (Shikimaru was also crushed like an insect by Pain, so it is not like Neji is getting worse treatment than the majority of the village).

Im not talking about them fighting all of Pein, but they could have definetly helped out versus Deva Pein alone especially given the info on him by the slug. I did not like how they were dismissed. And, I really believe that the reason why they weren’t in the village was because there is no reason, no reason at all why rock, guy and neji wouldn’t be able to take out 2 or maybe even three bodies (probably one by one, and depending on the body)

And, about Kisame’s clone that isn’t a very accurate way of judging things. You’re stating it that way to try to prove your point but you’re wording facts in a certain way to make them seem like something they’re not. Kakashi also had trouble with naruto, Sakura and Chiyo against a 30% Itachi. Does this mean he doesn’t have potential to take out a Pein body? Shit, he was close to taking out the most powerful one (with some help).

The only time team guy was in any real trouble was when Kisame used the clones, and used the water bubbles. Which neji could have broken free from at anytime – but he was stalling for time and waiting for the right moment. As soon as Neji broke free, he destroyed all three clones in seconds, freeing the others . And, all guy had to do was open a few gates and that was that. Kisame has a massive, MASSIVE amount of chakra so 30% is still a lot, as we can see with the chakra intensive moves he was able to pull out. Don’t try to twist things just to prove a point.

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by Kishimyu

But Naruto has had little experience with Sage mode and they dont wont Naruto accidentally hurting an ally with is attacks. No one wants to get hit by an attack that can cut you to pieces then explode in your face.

Hmm....i have a theory, idk just a thought. I think Naruto will end up killing Sasuke in the end.

It's a possibility, since right now Sasuke is the exactly opposite of Naruto. Naruto is fighting to end the chain of hatred, just like the hero of the legend of the gutsy ninja, he's growing as a character and as a man, in the other hand, Sasuke is giving himself to the same chain, carried by his emotions and just want vengeance. Maybe the clash of ideas could lead to one of them dying. And i don't think Sasuke got much time either way, the new sharingan is fucking him badly.

I can't wait to see Naruto's answer for Nagato. Next chapter going to be epic.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Firstly I never said it wasn’t a shounen manga, I only said it wasn’t following the typical path. I’m trying to say that its turning into the typical bullshit where there is only one guy who defeats the villains and has a stupid amount of power. He has a ridiculous amount of chakra as his normal self, and if he decides to go to sage or kyuubi for power its limitless – that’s what I was pointing out.

That is not really a sufficient argument considering that the majority of Naruto's fights have placed him as the "only guy" who can defeat the current enemy (this was seen most prevelently in the Gaara, Kakuzu, and Pain fight, but it was also seen in the Haku and Kabuto fight as well). So, as I said, this is just par for the course in regards to Shounen storytelling and the current events are not different from previous events in the series.

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

They never really fought; and from what little fighting they DID go through, Naruto was on the upper hand.

Deidara commanded the air as well as having elemental superiority, so there was no legitimate way that Naruto pre-FRS and pre-Senjutsu could have defeated Deidara.

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

He lost to Sasuke once, the second time was a scuffle where Naruto and co. weren’t even using lethal force – while Sasuke was going full throttle. When the battle was REALLY going to start, Orochimaru stopped him and ran away as usual.

Orochimaru didn’t even dent naruto, while Naruto mangled him and forced him to have to run away. AGAIN. As usual.

Well, at least I know you are a full-fleged Naruto fan . The way I see it, both Orochimaru and Sasuke had various jutsus on hand that could have defeated Naruto. So, even if they did retreat, the fact that they could have seemingly easily defeated Naruto means that Naruto did lose these skirmishes (he lost the battle, but not the war).

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Im not talking about them fighting all of Pein, but they could have definetly helped out versus Deva Pein alone especially given the info on him by the slug. I did not like how they were dismissed. And, I really believe that the reason why they weren’t in the village was because there is no reason, no reason at all why rock, guy and neji wouldn’t be able to take out 2 or maybe even three bodies (probably one by one, and depending on the body)...

The only time team guy was in any real trouble was when Kisame used the clones, and used the water bubbles. Which neji could have broken free from at anytime – but he was stalling for time and waiting for the right moment. As soon as Neji broke free, he destroyed all three clones in seconds, freeing the others . And, all guy had to do was open a few gates and that was that. Kisame has a massive, MASSIVE amount of chakra so 30% is still a lot, as we can see with the chakra intensive moves he was able to pull out. Don’t try to twist things just to prove a point.

There is absolutely no way to know what Team Gai could have done against the individual Pain bodies. I do feel that it is more than safe to say that they (individually or as a team) could not defeat Deva (considering that Deva fighting at full power destroyed a village with one shot, and just using smaller portions of his power was able to fling 100 meter tall Toads kilometers away from the battle grounds...I'm sorry, but I seriously find it hard to believe that Team Gai could have done anything against Deva). And, as for the other bodies...Well if Kakashi and his ragtag group could defeat one of the bodies I do not doubt that Team Gai couldn't as well, but, as to your assertion that they could defeat the bodies individually...well I guess the best thing I can say is that we will never know.

As to the Kisame fight, I fully admit to not remembering the fight that well. But, the impression I received from the fight was that Gai had to release 6 Gates just to beat a highly restricted Kisame. But, in regards to my simplistic comparisson between Kisame and Pain, you are correct, there is no real way to compare the two. Gai defeating or not defeating Kisame bears no bearing on what he can do to a Pain body (It would be like saying that because Naruto (in Part I) could beat Neji, he could also beat Lee (since Neji could defeat Lee). So, I retract that statement from the discussion.