[Manga] Chapter 339 Discussion

[chuckcsf]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

Okay i admit that i made a mistake about that i mainly went on my first impressions of the jutsu plus in a couple of RPGs that i play it has it down as genjutsu, ill have them change that next time i see an admin on there. I apologise and am sorry i caused an unnecessary ruckus.

this is where i got it from. My appologies. next time i will make ure of what im saying. Now i just feel foolish.

Don't even appologize man, it's ok to make mistakes... Some people just feel better when they insult and be mean to people who make simple mistakes.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by The Small One

You seem to overestimate the possibilities of this training methods.
It's not as if Naruto is really training several years. This training method isn't suited for consecutive learning, it only cuts short time for try&error methods.
Basically Naruto didn't need months or years for his new technique; he learned it in exactly the amount of days he really needed.

Of course, Naruto's training would last the same time with or without thousands of clones. Kakashi, Yamato and Naruto just didn't notice this kind of training is a waste of time and chakra.
Naruto's training is the equivalent of years of training. What should have gave you a hint about that is Kakashi's lengthy explanation directly stating it :
"With thousand of clones something that would take twenty years would take a week".
Honestly it's difficult to be clearer than that.

[chuckcsf]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Of course, Naruto's training would last the same time with or without thousands of clones. Kakashi, Yamato and Naruto just didn't notice this kind of training is a waste of time and chakra.
Naruto's training is the equivalent of years of training. What should have gave you a hint about that is Kakashi's lengthy explanation directly stating it :
"With thousand of clones something that would take twenty years would take a week".
Honestly it's difficult to be clearer than that.

And we all thought Naruto was dumb! Looks like somebody else is "slower" than Naruto in understanding Kakashi's explaination...

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Adding on to what hunter said, the way i looked at it is that not everybody is required to become ninjas, such as ayame the ramen girl... Haishi basically never went through the ninja acedemy and all that other stuff... all of his training and his raise to being as strong as a jounin comes from private training with his family. This makes sence the family wants to protect their bloodline and thus it be best to keep the main family off the battlefield...

ofcourse there is the whole thing with hinata and the risk she poses for the clan bloodline, but i see this as nothing short of a plot device... it gives her some character and by not marking her with a curse seal we can some more character for neji... seriously, if hinata was marked like neji, he wouldn't hate her, he would sympathize with her... kishi just seems to look over such things, there really isn't any explaination i can see outside of plot device

however, another interesting thing to note from the databooks about haishi is that he does have a ninja registration number... on the one hand, this can lead us to think that he was a normal ninja and is now just retired (though he seems young for retirement)... but on the other hand, it could just be that anyone who develops ninja skills, even if they aren't official kohona ninjas, must register themselves for kohona's officals so they always know how many poeple in the village have skills...

It never states that Hiashi is retired. I think the best notion would be is that he's still an active Ninja, but because he's the head of his clan he prob. has specific duties and responsibilities related to his clan.

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

Hiashi Never wanted Hinata to be a shinobi in the first place, he made her become one becuase he wasnt interested in her as his true heir, o he sent her off to the ninja academy. While her sister hanabi is 5 yrs her junior and is stronger then Hinata. thus Hiashi is trianing her himself to pass on the knowledge of the clan, Neji HAS to become a ninja to protect the Kekkei genkai from others, so most if not all branch family members are made into Shinobi. to fight to protect and to die. Hiashi, if he were to be ranked, would probably be a Special Jounin.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

It never states that Hiashi is retired. I think the best notion would be is that he's still an active Ninja, but because he's the head of his clan he prob. has specific duties and responsibilities related to his clan.

i was throwing in possible theories... If anything, we can be certian that Haiashi is NOT an active ninja of kohona, his lack of rank is proof of that... rankless ninjas are either retired(inactive as offical kohona ninja), had no rank to begin with, or they are missing-nin... Since Haishi is not the later, that means he is either had a rank but is now retired, or he never had a rank to begin with. on the one hand it would make sence for him to never go through normal training and become a normal kohona ninja due to his position in his clan and the traditions they have, on the other hand there is the whole "ninja registration number" thing which seems like it would mean that he was indeed once and offical kohona ninja, but in reasons i stated before, it's not exactly solid proof of it

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

ii see where you're coming from but im only saying that if Hiashi DID have a rank it would be of a superior Jounin level, like Kakashi

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

ii see where you're coming from but im only saying that if Hiashi DID have a rank it would be of a superior Jounin level, like Kakashi

Special jounins aren't higher level jounins. They're actually lower level jounins. They're called Special jounins because they haven't had the all-around training of regular jounin, but instead specialize in one area. Example: Ibiki is a special jounin because he is an interrogation expert. There is no official rank beyond jounin other than Hokage.

Hiashi would've definitely been ranked a jounin though. I'm not exactly sure why he isn't ranked. Some people who don't even appear to be shinobi are ranked. Sasuke's mom for example was ranked as a jounin I think. But she appeared to be just a housewife

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

I thought special Jounins Were stronger becuase they are more trained in a particular area. even the name sort of implies that they are better. I mean Kakashi is a special jounin who is a great tracker and mercenary. thats what makes him specail formt he other jounins. Anbu are mostly Special jounins and Special Chuunins because of all their individual skills plus they are trained in special ways to track hunt, and kill their opponents. it seemed logical to me. I could be mistaken though

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

I thought special Jounins Were stronger becuase they are more trained in a particular area. even the name sort of implies that they are better. I mean Kakashi is a special jounin who is a great tracker and mercenary. thats what makes him specail formt he other jounins. Anbu are mostly Special jounins and Special Chuunins because of all their individual skills plus they are trained in special ways to track hunt, and kill their opponents. it seemed logical to me. I could be mistaken though

Yeah, the name "Special" does seem to imply that they are better than normal jounin but that's not the case. How the requirements of being a special jounin differ from a normal jounin aren't exactly clear. Anko, Ebisu and Ibiki are all ranked as special jounin, but the stronger jounins: Kurenai, Asuma Gai and Kakashi are all regular jounin.

[LCeh]

What if it's for repetition? If you have to do something a thousand times before you are natural enough with it to use it in battle, then this method would shorten it to a very short time as well.

[chuckcsf]

Originally Posted by The Small One

In the best case: Yes. (But Naruto is too stupid for the best case)



The point is: The only thing that is cut short is the trial and error-time.
All the clones are basically trying the same thing at the same time, however they make it a bit different and statistically there are a few who make it better. Without clones, Naruto would have to try it one after another; with the clones, he can make it parallel.
Then he has to dispell the jutsu, gain the knowledge, and start from anew with the new knowlegde. But the fact remains: All clones start from the same spot, they just work into different directions, out of which only one is the right one.

Now in the best case, he would need the same time without any clones, if he was lucky and always got it right on the first try. It's like walking thorugh a huge maze: if you can split yourself up on each junction, you will most likely reach the goal much faster, but if you are lucky and find the right way on the first try, it will take you the same time.

Do you have to analyze every single detail??? Just take it as it is man. If they say it's equivalent to that many years then it is equivalent to that.

[Luminion Lancer]

-OK is it just me or does Naruto officially posses 2 attacks for taking down Akatsuki members (or at least those who are at their level)? When Naruto formed his newest jutsu, the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, Kakuzu was noticably worried going so far as to say to himself "I had better avoid that attack or else my life will end". Sounds a lot like what Orochimaru was saying when Naruto was about to blast him with that "Blood Chakra Condesed Bullet" in his 4-Tailed-Mode does it not? Of course, wheter or not Kakuzu has a counter measure for this situation is up for debate...

-That aside does anyone know which of Naruto's jutsus is 50% complete? Is it the Fuuton: Rasengan that was used in combination with Yamato or is it the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken? Or are both at that point of completion?

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

i think hes reffering o how he can control it. the technique is down but he needs to control it better thats all

[Nuu]

i believe he meant all of the Futon: Rasengan jutsu since they all rely off the base of futon rasengan. So it might be strong but we will see, who knows maybe he might try to pull the old kage shuriken move again. now that he can form one it wouldnt be surprised if he can distract kakuzu enought to transform into it ans shadow it and come back with another move of some sorts

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

we must be paitent that is all we can do

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-OK is it just me or does Naruto officially posses 2 attacks for taking down Akatsuki members (or at least those who are at their level)? When Naruto formed his newest jutsu, the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, Kakuzu was noticably worried going so far as to say to himself "I had better avoid that attack or else my life will end". Sounds a lot like what Orochimaru was saying when Naruto was about to blast him with that "Blood Chakra Condesed Bullet" in his 4-Tailed-Mode does it not? Of course, wheter or not Kakuzu has a counter measure for this situation is up for debate...

-That aside does anyone know which of Naruto's jutsus is 50% complete? Is it the Fuuton: Rasengan that was used in combination with Yamato or is it the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken? Or are both at that point of completion?

Even if it is thrown, unless that attack has amazing speed or a huge damage radius, It will just be too easy for Kakuzu to simply dodge it (and Kakuzu has already stated that he realizes he has to avoid it and not counter). I think this attack is a set up for a larger plan of attack.

[Kotengu]

Originally Posted by LCeh

What if it's for repetition? If you have to do something a thousand times before you are natural enough with it to use it in battle, then this method would shorten it to a very short time as well.

It's not like you can just read a book or listen to an explination and just know how to do a jutsu (sharingan not included). In theory it would be just as hard as learning how to do something like a backflip or tripple lutz, with energy exertion factors to include as well. In addition to which you have to become efficient enough to use the ability in a high speed ninja battle! So yea taking 20 years to learn something no one else can do becomes a little more believeable.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Even if it is thrown, unless that attack has amazing speed or a huge damage radius, It will just be too easy for Kakuzu to simply dodge it (and Kakuzu has already stated that he realizes he has to avoid it and not counter). I think this attack is a set up for a larger plan of attack.

I do as well. Naruto's specialty so far has been his ability to take his opponents by surprise with completly unexpected attacks and battle momentum. The NEW angle is that naruto actually spends some time on analysis before he jumps into combat. I predict that this will make him into a fighter more on par with Kakashi or Neji, with the ability to see thru an oponent (to an extent) with Kagebushin, THEN take them by surprise with unexpected attacks generated from his uneque imagination.

[zamme]

All distance attacks CAN be dodged, but Naruto obviously has a plan since he attacked Kakuzu with bunshins to figure out his fighting style, and how many bunshins he should use for "that" (in other word, his plan).
But the technique probably has an ace in itself, maybe it explodes, can redirect or has an odd travelling route. Either way it's going to take punish on Kakuzu one way or another, obviously.

[ShikaShika]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Dodge?
I would be very disappointed, if this jutsu is not controlable after Naruto threw it and can simply be dodged.

Personally I think it would be pretty lame if he could control it, and I hope Naruto instead has some means of immobilizing Kakuzu, perhaps with clones. At least I think we can all assume that Naruto is going to do more than simply throwing the rasenshuriken next chapter.