Log Horizon - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[liro]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

I would follow Shiroe anywhere, no questions asked. He's suck a nice guy.

Who wouldn't? He's a competent strategist, a quick thinker and a planner though I still doubt whether he'll be a good leader. He reminds me of Maou from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

too bad we didn't see her in the dress

I'll wait for pixiv's fanartists to draw her in the dress.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I just don't agree with it. The problem created by the lack of desirable food vastly outweigh any vague "trouble" the revelation would cause. It's not like he planned any big move himself at the time.


It's a dick move no matter who pulls it.

Information is power in this world. Shiro and Co are vastly outnumbered and 'outgunned'. The only way for them to exert influence is by outsmarting their opponents. The food 'technique' is an incredibly powerful weapon if used correctly, and Shiro is going to use it to jump start his plan to clean up his home town.

[Anh_Minh]

Three points:
- the real secret is that tasty food is possible at all. Once that's known, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how. Unless everyone else is conveniently stupid, which I suppose is possible.
- Shiroe had no intention to do anything when he said to keep it secret.
- Letting millions suffer just because you're power hungry is a dick move anyway. People would be suicidal if the system let them, all because of the food.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Three points:
- the real secret is that tasty food is possible at all. Once that's known, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how. Unless everyone else is conveniently stupid, which I suppose is possible.
- Shiroe had no intention to do anything when he said to keep it secret.
- Letting millions suffer just because you're power hungry is a dick move anyway. People would be suicidal if the system let them, all because of the food.

I think people knew spices might have taste, but didn't know you had to be a high level cook in order to actually 'cook' the ingredients manually. With food so easily available cooking mastery probably wasn't a very popular sub-class.

Also, it's entirely likely that other people have figured out the secret in other parts of the world. Everyone who's figured it out would want to keep it a secret because it is extremely powerful knowledge. From a game theory point of view, holding onto the knowledge gives you an advantage, however, the first person that shares the knowledge and controls the method of that sharing would get a very powerful one-time weapon. Shiroe might not have had a use for it earlier in the episode but he recognized how important it is, and definitely doesn't want to just give it to those other guilds that he disliked.

Also, there are only 30,000 people on the Japanese servers.

[DmonHiro]

I don't know... I think dying does have some sort of penalty, we just haven't seen it yet. In the game, you lose EXP. What if you still lose EXP, but now, it's for real. What it you lose your mind, slowly, until you become an NPC, or something. It would explain why they said in episode 5 that there are more and more people of the land.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

I don't know... I think dying does have some sort of penalty, we just haven't seen it yet. In the game, you lose EXP. What if you still lose EXP, but now, it's for real. What it you lose your mind, slowly, until you become an NPC, or something. It would explain why they said in episode 5 that there are more and more people of the land.

Pain can still be felt, although I think in episode 1 they said it wasn't as painful compared to real life. However, I think getting crushed or getting stabbed would still be a good deterrent.

Also, you get looted when you die from other people. Items and equipment have a huge role in this world right now, as without your equipment you basically cannot do anything. If you die and lose your weapon/armors, you can't even go out and hunt, you are literally at the mercy of the stronger players.

[Quol]

I would think there would be escape items or spells. Cant players just use Call of Home and teleport back to a major city to avoid death?

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by Quol

I would think there would be escape items or spells. Cant players just use Call of Home and teleport back to a major city to avoid death?

There's probably a cast time on those home teleportation skills. In a lot of games they take upwards of 10 seconds to cast precisely to not let players use it as a way to escape death.

[The Green One]

You can't just look at the surface of things. You have to consider the reasons behind actions. Deliberately ignoring that is just willful ignorance.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I just don't agree with it. The problem created by the lack of desirable food vastly outweigh any vague "trouble" the revelation would cause. It's not like he planned any big move himself at the time.


It's a dick move no matter who pulls it.


They're still scared of pain, and the stakes are so very low.


A temporary inconvenience isn't death, therefore, they don't die if they're killed, to use the usual expression. Ergo, they're immortal.

Immortality doesn't mean invulnerable or invincible.

"I just don't agree with it. The problem created by the lack of desirable food vastly outweigh any vague "trouble" the revelation would cause. It's not like he planned any big move himself at the time.


It's a dick move no matter who pulls it."
Hmm, lets see what were the possible troubles that can be cause by that for now. The players might think that it is much easier to raid and plunder NPC town and village to rob the ingredients than fight the enemy mobs, possibly killing the NPC and destroying their town(which is kinda ironic, the lack of taste for food probably prevent that from happening in the first place, since because all the food taste the same, there were no incentive to do just that) Or that bigger guilds gets more aggressive in hogging the field, for both Exp and loot, making the guild segregation worse.Sure it might not have happen, but there is a very real possibilites that those two might occurs, and knowing Shiroe, he probably thought of that too, Now tell me, does the ability to feel more taste for players far outweight those two situation?

"A temporary inconvenience isn't death, therefore, they don't die if they're killed, to use the usual expression. Ergo, they're immortal."
You really were underestimating what pain can do or cause, and overestimating the people's capability to cope with it. Im pretty sure that they can feel the pain, even the pain of being killed in battle. I almost laught when youre reffering being killed in battle as "A temporary inconvenience", even if they got revived later.

[HandofFate]

If you can make real food, maybe using the same engineering method, you can make real tangible weapons that might have real effects on players than just game HP damage.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

If you can make real food, maybe using the same engineering method, you can make real tangible weapons that might have real effects on players than just game HP damage.

When you introduce permanent PvP death into a game without it, it's usually a signal for the FINAL ARC. So even if the story does go that way it's unlikely we'll see it anytime soon.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

I don't know... I think dying does have some sort of penalty, we just haven't seen it yet. In the game, you lose EXP. What if you still lose EXP, but now, it's for real.

There is actually, but it's pretty minor, though obviously if you die again and again it tends to pile up (and these are newbies after all).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by darksassin

"I just don't agree with it. The problem created by the lack of desirable food vastly outweigh any vague "trouble" the revelation would cause. It's not like he planned any big move himself at the time.


It's a dick move no matter who pulls it."
Hmm, lets see what were the possible troubles that can be cause by that for now. The players might think that it is much easier to raid and plunder NPC town and village to rob the ingredients than fight the enemy mobs, possibly killing the NPC and destroying their town(which is kinda ironic, the lack of taste for food probably prevent that from happening in the first place, since because all the food taste the same, there were no incentive to do just that) Or that bigger guilds gets more aggressive in hogging the field, for both Exp and loot, making the guild segregation worse.Sure it might not have happen, but there is a very real possibilites that those two might occurs, and knowing Shiroe, he probably thought of that too, Now tell me, does the ability to feel more taste for players far outweight those two situation?

It would give people a hope for normalcy. Get up in the morning, work, eat. A simple everyday life that we don't appreciate till it's gone.

A lot of players, I hear, are in complete despair. I dare say that being able to work for food they'd appreciate would change that. It would give rise to the possibility of a non-shitty life. And more people would get involved with their new world, instead of doing the bare minimum to keep their life to a shitty level instead of extremely shitty. Right now, the world belongs to the assholes, because they're the ones who think making life for others miserable is a worthwhile goal, and so they're the ones acting. What's needed is more people with a vested interest in making Elder Tale livable, and that means more people who think it can be done.

"A temporary inconvenience isn't death, therefore, they don't die if they're killed, to use the usual expression. Ergo, they're immortal."
You really were underestimating what pain can do or cause, and overestimating the people's capability to cope with it. Im pretty sure that they can feel the pain, even the pain of being killed in battle. I almost laught when youre reffering being killed in battle as "A temporary inconvenience", even if they got revived later.

No, you're underestimating death. Death is the permanent end of life. Anything that falls short of that isn't death. And being free of that makes you immortal. It may not make you impervious to pain, but I only said "immortal". Besides, yeah, game death is a temporary inconvenience. A few seconds, maybe minutes of pain, and then you're right as rain. Instead of crippled and suffering from chronic pains. It may not be pleasant, but it falls ridiculously short of what can happen IRL.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

If you can make real food, maybe using the same engineering method, you can make real tangible weapons that might have real effects on players than just game HP damage.

To be honest, who knows? For now probably only the Author.
Though, if that do happen, I imagine that those weapon would be the equivalent as nuclear weapon in this world, meaning as deterrent

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

If you can make real food, maybe using the same engineering method, you can make real tangible weapons that might have real effects on players than just game HP damage.

You can probably fall from a real great height into a real ground, and it won't kill you permanently. (Or there'd have been a lot of suicide that way.)

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You can probably fall from a real great height into a real ground, and it won't kill you permanently. (Or there'd have been a lot of suicide that way.)

Inferred already, after Shiroe's accident in Palm's Deep. The higher your levels are, the more physically hardy you are in Elder Tale. Even a level 90 Enchanter like Shiroe can likely overpower a newbie Samurai or Guardian, simply because his STR stat is way higher than a beginner's.

[RobotCat]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It would give people a hope for normalcy. Get up in the morning, work, eat. A simple everyday life that we don't appreciate till it's gone.

A lot of players, I hear, are in complete despair. I dare say that being able to work for food they'd appreciate would change that. It would give rise to the possibility of a non-shitty life. And more people would get involved with their new world, instead of doing the bare minimum to keep their life to a shitty level instead of extremely shitty. Right now, the world belongs to the assholes, because they're the ones who think making life for others miserable is a worthwhile goal, and so they're the ones acting. What's needed is more people with a vested interest in making Elder Tale livable, and that means more people who think it can be done.

No, if the secret was just released like that, all the guilds who are currently in power will just use it as another method of 'control'. They'd monopolize the ingredients, force lowbies to train cooking, etc. Instead of just having 'pain' as the stick, they'd now have the 'carrot' too. It'd probably make the oppressed less likely to stand up for themselves, because the players who are oppressed would be 'content' if they can have tasty food once in a while. Giving a little bit of hope is a much stronger method of control than just constant despair. A good balance of both is what allows tyranny to rule for prolonged periods of time.

That's why Shiroe wants to control HOW this secret is revealed to the public. If he reveals everything outright, he wouldn't be able to get his ingredients in order to make the 5 million gold he needs. He knows eventually the other guilds will move against him, but in the meantime he'll take advantage of his positioning to make the gold, and the move onto the next phase of his plan.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Inferred already, after Shiroe's accident in Palm's Deep. The higher your levels are, the more physically hardy you are in Elder Tale. Even a level 90 Enchanter like Shiroe can likely overpower a newbie Samurai or Guardian, simply because his STR stat is way higher than a beginner's.

Shiroe didn't get his HP to 0, so it doesn't tell us much.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Shiroe didn't get his HP to 0, so it doesn't tell us much.

It does tell us that physical damage doesn't work the same way. By all accounts he should have broken, or at the very least sprained something. But as his body uses an HP system, it's "everything is fine as long as my HP isn't zero."