[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Is she in fact a hack writer though? Supposedly, she thinks she's close to the truth, and if we buy her claim to be the author of 3-6, she's managed to avoid any major plot holes that we know of. A hack wouldn't even care about that kind of thing.

[Kylon99]

Well, self-insertion is kind of a cheezy thing to do. 8) Ok, but if not hack then... a troll writer? Maybe she's intentionally obfuscating the truth then?

[Jan-Poo]

It just occurred to me a possible solution to the EP3 first twilight.

this theory assumes shkanon theory is true.

In that case the Chapel door was left open since the beginning.
Shannon made it so that the first one to be most likely discovered was her own corpse. And that's why she faked her death in the parlour in the first floor. That was one of the most easily rooms to break into.

Once they have found her body obviously they would all go on that trip she set up to look for the rest of the corpses. That means she had all the time to go out from the broken window, close herself inside the chapel and disguise as Kanon.

This kind of trick would have a chance of going wrong, but it was repeatedly said that this is how Beatrice acts.

[Tyabann]

Actually, speaking of that, I've been considering the plausibility of Shkannon... and have concluded that it is extraordinarily implausible, simply because of the number of people that would have to know about Shkannon and be lying about it.

Let's think for a minute, and ignore all scenes that are obviously magical and thus unreliable.


-Natsuhi and Krauss would have to know their secret, since they're the ones that write up the schedules. Kinzo would also have to know, since he was the one who hired them.
-Genji has seen the two of them together, and as the head servant, he'd have to know. Gohda and Kumasawa, although I don't believe either of them saw them together in Ep1, were definitely all in front of the chapel in Ep2, and may have been together at other not-obviously-magical times.


Excluding Jessica for a minute, that's everyone who lives or works on the island. But what about all the others?


-Rosa sees the two of them together in Ep2, at the same time that Gohda and Kumasawa do.
-I believe Hideyoshi and Rudolf see the two corpses in Ep3, but I suppose it's at least somewhat plausible that Shannon managed to run to the chapel without being seen. I don't believe Eva and Kyrie are with that particular search party, but I could be wrong and need to read Ep3 again.
-In Ep4, we hear over the phones that Kyrie, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon are all in the same room at the same time... so those two would have to be lying, as well.


This leaves only Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Eva who have definitely never seen Shannon and Kanon together as of Ep4, if my count is correct. But what about Ep5 and 6?


-In Ep5, Shannon and Kanon appear in front of Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa (and Battler, but he doesn't count anymore). I don't know how reliable you'd consider this scene, but let's just say it clears Eva. There may have been other times she's witnessed them together as well.
-Erika must also be in on the secret, as, being the detective, her reliable perspective would see them as one person.
-I've been told that Ep6 features a flashback with George and Jessica alongside Shannon and Kanon... if, of course, you consider that scene reliable.


This means that, if my memory is serving correctly, every single person on Rokkenjima must be part of a vast conspiracy to keep either Battler or Maria from learning the truth about Shannon and Kanon. And if you want to count in Battler as being a part of the secret, thanks to chrono's theory about fake scenes and the gold truth, everyone is doing this to keep it from Maria, and I don't need to say how pointless that would be.

What do you think, everyone?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It just occurred to me a possible solution to the EP3 first twilight.

this theory assumes shkanon theory is true.

In that case the Chapel door was left open since the beginning.
Shannon made it so that the first one to be most likely discovered was her own corpse. And that's why she faked her death in the parlour in the first floor. That was one of the most easily rooms to break into.

Once they have found her body obviously they would all go on that trip she set up to look for the rest of the corpses. That means she had all the time to go out from the broken window, close herself inside the chapel and disguise as Kanon.

This kind of trick would have a chance of going wrong, but it was repeatedly said that this is how Beatrice acts.

Shannon can't be faking her death - Beatrice confirms her dead in red right after the discovery and says it was instant.

Beatrice was trying to make EP 3 a lot easier for Battler than EP 2, so I see no reason for her to be tricky with the red. Unless you're suggesting she goes into the chapel and just suddenly dies.

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

-Natsuhi and Krauss would have to know their secret, since they're the ones that write up the schedules. Kinzo would also have to know, since he was the one who hired them.
-Genji has seen the two of them together, and as the head servant, he'd have to know. Gohda and Kumasawa, although I don't believe either of them saw them together in Ep1, were definitely all in front of the chapel in Ep2, and may have been together at other not-obviously-magical times.

Kinzo was probably in charge of the schedules for the -on servants until he died, and Genji probably took over that part of the illusion of Kinzo for Natsuhi.
Also, remember that there are usually only 2-3 servants on the island at a time, even though there are 5 on duty during the family conference and several others mentioned at other times. The odds that both Shannon and Kanon would be selected for the same shift are fairly low until the time of the family conference, so there's no reason Krauss and Natsuhi need to know.

Remember that with the Battler-centric theory, all scenes are what Battler would say the truth is at the end of the game. Unless Gohda went out of his way to tell Battler that only one of those two servants was there at any given time, the other servants would cover for Shkanon. So there's no need for Gohda to know the truth.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

-Rosa sees the two of them together in Ep2, at the same time that Gohda and Kumasawa do.
-I believe Hideyoshi and Rudolf see the two corpses in Ep3, but I suppose it's at least somewhat plausible that Shannon managed to run to the chapel without being seen. I don't believe Eva and Kyrie are with that particular search party, but I could be wrong and need to read Ep3 again.
-In Ep4, we hear over the phones that Kyrie, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon are all in the same room at the same time... so those two would have to be lying, as well.

Rosa's case is the same as Gohda's. Unless she specifically tells Battler that she saw both servants at the same time, it isn't a problem. Remember that Sayo has a chance to tell Battler the whole story from start to finish at the end, explaining how she used magic to kill everyone. It makes perfect sense that she would claim both Shannon and Kanon were together at certain times when Battler isn't looking.

For EP3, no one was fooled by the corpses. Everyone realized they were fake, but since Nanjo had proclaimed all of them dead, they decided to play along for the time being. All of the women thought it was a joke until Rosa's corpse was found, at which time Kyrie says "I thought it was all a prank, but I guess not". The next scene we see her, she tells Rudolf that she wants to go to the mansion, and they take all witnesses of the fake corpses except Natsuhi and Krauss, whom they don't trust. In other words, it's possible that Shannon's corpse was just a dummy or someone else's corpse. Since it was the first one everyone saw, if they realized it was a fake, they would assume that all the rest of the corpses were fakes.

In EP4, we can't trust any words said over the phone. Eventually, Kyrie claims all kinds of magic occurred while presumably someone is shooting a gun all around her. If they were at gunpoint the entire time, they would have gone along with the story.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

-In Ep5, Shannon and Kanon appear in front of Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa (and Battler, but he doesn't count anymore). I don't know how reliable you'd consider this scene, but let's just say it clears Eva. There may have been other times she's witnessed them together as well.

As I've mentioned before, Battler learns of Sayo's secret in EP5 and decides to help keep it. Since all scenes are "the story Battler would tell at the end of the game", it makes sense that he would "tell" anyone that he saw both of them together.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

-Erika must also be in on the secret, as, being the detective, her reliable perspective would see them as one person.

Erika would see them as one person. However, in the Umineko series, all scenes that aren't "pure meta-world" (scenes that reference other games) are seen from Battler's perspective, where the gaps of his perspective are filled in by hearsay and speculation. So we never see Erika's perspective.


In other words, the only surviving people who have to know about Shkanon are Genji, Kumasawa, Sayo, and sometimes Battler.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

Erika would see them as one person. However, in the Umineko series, all scenes that aren't "pure meta-world" (scenes that reference other games) are seen from Battler's perspective, where the gaps of his perspective are filled in by hearsay and speculation. So we never see Erika's perspective.


In other words, the only surviving people who have to know about Shkanon are Genji, Kumasawa, Sayo, and sometimes Battler.

If that's true shkanon really is a dirty trick in episode 5. For a majority of the episodes shkanon relies on fantasy scenes to point how they could be the same person by using the Sakutarou definition of furniture. In episode 5 you have to use Battler's perspective not being reliable as an excuse, which is the opposite pattern of the question arcs.

After rereading the study scene though I think it might just be a pure meta scene. One could claim it's written from Dlanor's perspective since her and the rest of Eiserne Jungfrau take up a majority of the screentime.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Is she in fact a hack writer though? Supposedly, she thinks she's close to the truth, and if we buy her claim to be the author of 3-6, she's managed to avoid any major plot holes that we know of. A hack wouldn't even care about that kind of thing.

I wonder. EP1 and EP2 shared a characteristic middlegame that almost totally vanished when Tohya took over the writing. EP3 does a pretty lousy job of setting up a witch illusion and only has one locked room -- and that one is really mechanical compared to the previous two games. EP4 has only one locked room and doesn't even bother trying with the stakes. And EP5 and EP6 don't explore past the second twilight at all.

Maybe Tohya's avoiding proper mid-game twilights because she never really understood them completely? I mean, obviously she got something out of them, but I wonder if she really reached the motivations underneath the tricks.

[Renall]

And how many locked rooms do 1-2 have, really? Think about it.

[Tyabann]

@chrono:

I must have missed it earlier... so your theory is that the games are presented as "the truth as Battler understands it"?

Uh. That directly contradicts how Ep2, 3 and 4 play out, that is, as Beatrice and Battler watching, say, a play, one which they are able to pause at will to discuss and argue about. The anime takes this VERY literally, what with the meta-frames being replaced a paused, black-and-white world.

I mean, it's an interesting theory, but all it really does is allow you to say that "every scene that Battler doesn't see is automatically fake", which allows you to easily dismiss details that don't agree with your version of events. Poirot would have a field day making fun of your method.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Kinzo was probably in charge of the schedules for the -on servants until he died, and Genji probably took over that part of the illusion of Kinzo for Natsuhi.
Also, remember that there are usually only 2-3 servants on the island at a time, even though there are 5 on duty during the family conference and several others mentioned at other times. The odds that both Shannon and Kanon would be selected for the same shift are fairly low until the time of the family conference, so there's no reason Krauss and Natsuhi need to know.

Nope. Krauss is the one who makes the schedules for all the servants. If not outright stated, I KNOW it's suggested in Ep1.

You're saying that Natsuhi and Krauss wouldn't know who their own servants are? That's ludicrous. Besides, even if I can't present evidence for it, I doubt that Shannon and Kanon haven't had the same shift before.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It makes perfect sense that she would claim both Shannon and Kanon were together at certain times when Battler isn't looking.

I don't see why she'd tell him that at all. Battler never suspected that they weren't two people. Why would she specifically say YES, THEY ARE REALLY TWO PEOPLE, THIS IS THE TRUTH, ALSO, I KILLED EVERYONE WITH MAGICAL GIRLS.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

For EP3, no one was fooled by the corpses. Everyone realized they were fake, but since Nanjo had proclaimed all of them dead, they decided to play along for the time being.

...Where is your evidence that this happened? If they were, indeed, playing dead, it's more likely that Nanjo injected them with some toxin while he was examining them, since Beato declared their deaths in red almost immediately after they were found. And if they WERE faking up until such and such a time, how were they killed?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

All of the women thought it was a joke until Rosa's corpse was found, at which time Kyrie says "I thought it was all a prank, but I guess not".

Does she actually say this? Refresh my memory, please.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The next scene we see her, she tells Rudolf that she wants to go to the mansion, and they take all witnesses of the fake corpses except Natsuhi and Krauss, whom they don't trust. In other words, it's possible that Shannon's corpse was just a dummy or someone else's corpse. Since it was the first one everyone saw, if they realized it was a fake, they would assume that all the rest of the corpses were fakes.

Weren't fake corpses specifically denied by red? The no body double tricks exist bit? I mean, sure, Beato didn't say the red applied to all games, but... I don't think we should be relying on dummy corpses or Erika's washed-up body at this point.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In EP4, we can't trust any words said over the phone. Eventually, Kyrie claims all kinds of magic occurred while presumably someone is shooting a gun all around her. If they were at gunpoint the entire time, they would have gone along with the story.

Again, I don't see why the culprit has to specifically draw attention to the point that Shannon and Kanon are different people... how is it important that Battler keeps thinking this? He has no reason to doubt that fact at all.

And trusting words said over the phone has nothing to do with my point anyway.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

As I've mentioned before, Battler learns of Sayo's secret in EP5 and decides to help keep it. Since all scenes are "the story Battler would tell at the end of the game", it makes sense that he would "tell" anyone that he saw both of them together.

I've outlined my problems with this interpretation above.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In other words, the only surviving people who have to know about Shkanon are Genji, Kumasawa, Sayo, and sometimes Battler.

Great way to cut down all my objections, there. The ability of an author to say "it never happened, so it doesn't matter" is the entire danger behind fake scenes, like I've said before.

Let's assume that your Battler-centric theory isn't true for a minute, and let's take the structure of the games at face value. How, then, do you explain how practically everyone knows about about Shkannon and yet feels the need to keep it a secret?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

And how many locked rooms do 1-2 have, really? Think about it.

It's not so much the number of locked rooms as an observation about Toyha's middlegame style. Both 1 and 2 presented a second twilight room constructed by hearsay. EP1 followed up with a fake death, confirmed by hearsay, and EP2 followed with another locked room, also constructed by hearsay. There seems to be a common factor at work, but Tohya never explores that in any of the following games.

If I were to speculate a bit, Genji seems to always be at the center of those incidents. But Tohya always kills him off in the first twilight or ends the game before he can do anything. In the latest game she barely even gave him any lines. So even if she understood the basic mechanism of the 1-2 tricks and incorporated it into later games, I have to wonder if she really figured out the reason the tricks took place. If she doesn't get Genji's motivations, that would explain why she writes him as Roboservant and barely involves him in anything.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erannon

...Where is your evidence that this happened? If they were, indeed, playing dead, it's more likely that Nanjo injected them with some toxin while he was examining them, since Beato declared their deaths in red almost immediately after they were found. And if they WERE faking up until such and such a time, how were they killed?

Beato didn't pronounce the victims dead until everyone got back to the guesthouse, so there was a period of about half an hour to kill them in. IIRC, Kyrie and Rosa were unaccounted for during that time, and someone in the search party could have lagged behind and stabbed the victims as well (coughNanjocough).

I do clearly remember that someone voiced a suspicion that the servants were faking, but I don't remember who it was.

[CainSonozaki]

Originally Posted by Marion

Shannon can't be faking her death - Beatrice confirms her dead in red right after the discovery and says it was instant.

Beatrice was trying to make EP 3 a lot easier for Battler than EP 2, so I see no reason for her to be tricky with the red. Unless you're suggesting she goes into the chapel and just suddenly dies.

But it never said when exactly they died. And remember Beato brought her back and she was killed again with George. I'm actually working on a theory which uses the possibility that shannon faked her death to try and solve episode 3. i got pretty much everything except the first twilight, and Nanjo.

I just need help trying ti figure where people were around whe the first twilight happened. i know the adults were together and the cousins were together adn i dont remember about nanjo.

[Kylon99]

Speaking of people having to lie in order to keep Shkannon from being exposed, do you guys realize just how much lying there is going on in the series? (Of course I don't think the entire family is capable of concentrating on one lie; groups within everybody concentrating on several different ones, ok...)

When I was compiling my faction list, this is what I observed. This is a list of suspicious actions taken in front of Battler in EP1-4.

Krauss - Lying about Kinzo
Natsuhi - Lying about Kinzo
Genji - Lying about Kinzo
Shannon - Lying about Kinzo
Kanon - Lying about Kinzo
Maria - Lying about Beatrice, Lying about seeing magic
Nanjo - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about First Twilight, Lying about Ring
Kumasawa - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about seeing magic
Gouda - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about seeing magic
Kyrie - Lying about seeing magic
Rosa - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about seeing magic
Jessica - Lying about seeing magic
Eva - Lying about finding the gold, killing Battler


There's probably more examples. I'm thinking Battler is the only one who doesn't lie at this point. 8)

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I do clearly remember that someone voiced a suspicion that the servants were faking, but I don't remember who it was.

That was me! 8)

The suspicion being that in almost every episode people were faking their deaths and then they were killed afterwards. Sometimes they are found after they have been killed *and* moved, so it doesn't preclude the possibility of a fake.


Also that this might be a way to discover new motivations and conspiracies behind some of the actions. That if it happened for one, two, three episodes that maybe it would've happened for all the episodes, except maybe something got in the way. Like circle painting, body moving, kinzo burning or kanon faking. 8)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

Shannon can't be faking her death - Beatrice confirms her dead in red right after the discovery and says it was instant.

Beatrice was trying to make EP 3 a lot easier for Battler than EP 2, so I see no reason for her to be tricky with the red. Unless you're suggesting she goes into the chapel and just suddenly dies.

I said this before,but when Kanon was found he had a gunshot wound to the stomach Shannon's wound was to her chest. So if they are the same person Shannon should have two different wounds, but when Battler finds her dead with George this isn't shown.

There is a red about each of the people being shot too. the red doesn't only say they all got killed instantly it also says each of them were shot. I don't think faking works here.

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for insane size:

Originally Posted by Judoh

In episode 5 you have to use Battler's perspective not being reliable as an excuse, which is the opposite pattern of the question arcs.

Wait, so it's a dirty trick to have Battler's perspective be not reliable in the very first episode where it is confirmed to be not reliable? They outright prove that his perspective isn't reliable in the climax at the end, and this is somehow a dirty trick?

I must have missed it earlier... so your theory is that the games are presented as "the truth as Battler understands it"?

Uh. That directly contradicts how Ep2, 3 and 4 play out, that is, as Beatrice and Battler watching, say, a play, one which they are able to pause at will to discuss and argue about. The anime takes this VERY literally, what with the meta-frames being replaced a paused, black-and-white world.

No, you're misunderstanding my theory. The scenes in which Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice speak with each other are not part of the Battler-centric theory. These are the straight meta-scenes, those that include people who exist in multiple worlds. It is always obvious when these sorts of scenes are taking place, and we know that they don't affect the game board because that creates a time paradox (unless you can construct a theory for how Battler knows about the future).

Most of the other scenes follow the story as Battler would tell it if he had to write it all down at the end. You can think of it as an account written at the end by the main character. Of course, if you were forced to write the entire tale down, you would have several blank spots that you only heard about from someone else. These parts would be based on their testimony that you heard.

I mean, it's an interesting theory, but all it really does is allow you to say that "every scene that Battler doesn't see is automatically fake", which allows you to easily dismiss details that don't agree with your version of events. Poirot would have a field day making fun of your method.

Not so. Battler must always have a reason for thinking that these scenes played out in a certain way. In EP4, it is at its most obvious. Everything is more or less as he heard it from Kyrie. His imagination and the test Beatrice showed him helped to fill in the blanks that Kyrie didn't mention. However, the basic outline was given to him by an actual person on the island. Fortunately, EP4 is the only time when Battler is apart from the action so long that he can't confirm the facts for himself. In all other cases, the stories that Battler is told must be carefully crafted to fit the facts he knows of.

Nope. Krauss is the one who makes the schedules for all the servants. If not outright stated, I KNOW it's suggested in Ep1.

You're saying that Natsuhi and Krauss wouldn't know who their own servants are? That's ludicrous. Besides, even if I can't present evidence for it, I doubt that Shannon and Kanon haven't had the same shift before.

Check the facts. Krauss and Natsuhi's tips make it pretty clear that Krauss never pays any attention to household matters at all, much less setting the schedules for all servants. Genji is the head servant, which means he must have some control over how the servants' jobs are divided. Otherwise, what would the position of head servant even mean?

Even more important though is the fact that Shannon and Kanon were servants with the One-winged crest. We know for a fact that these servants answered personally to Kinzo, and that, for this reason, the rest of the family viewed them as Kinzo's spies and distrusted them. There's a lot that Krauss and Natsuhi don't know about the -on servants. This is something we've known since the beginning. When Kinzo died, it's very possible that Natsuhi let Genji take over the household matters that Kinzo had formerly controlled personally. Unless you can show evidence that this was not the case, my argument stands.

I don't see why she'd tell him that at all. Battler never suspected that they weren't two people. Why would she specifically say YES, THEY ARE REALLY TWO PEOPLE, THIS IS THE TRUTH, ALSO, I KILLED EVERYONE WITH MAGICAL GIRLS.

You aren't making sense here. We know that Sayo worked extremely hard to keep the Shkanon thing secret. We also know that she's trying to make Battler utterly confused so that he believes in magic. It's only natural that she would give an explanation that makes the truth as hidden as possible and that makes magic the reason for everything. As long as you accept the premises of my theory, this is only a natural result.

...Where is your evidence that this happened? If they were, indeed, playing dead, it's more likely that Nanjo injected them with some toxin while he was examining them, since Beato declared their deaths in red almost immediately after they were found. And if they WERE faking up until such and such a time, how were they killed?

I'll get to that red text later, but it actually supports my overall theory more than it damages it. There is no evidence that Nanjo killed them, and there are several bits of evidence pointing to Sayo being the killer for the first twilight. However, I can't get there until I reach the next part of my theory. We're almost to EP3...

As for my evidence, I've just given it. Why is it that in all of Umineko, this is the only time people believe the corpses are faked? I don't believe that it's "just because they're all servants+Kinzo". There must be a reason that Rosa, Eva, and Kyrie all separately reached the conclusion that the whole thing was a joke. And it is a fact that Kyrie took a group to check out the mansion almost immediately after Rosa's death proved that it wasn't all a joke.

Weren't fake corpses specifically denied by red? The no body double tricks exist bit? I mean, sure, Beato didn't say the red applied to all games, but... I don't think we should be relying on dummy corpses or Erika's washed-up body at this point.

That was for unidentified corpses. That line of red text was worded in an awkward way, so there must be a reason Beatrice used that choice of wording. If everyone looking at the corpse realizes it's a fake, then it isn't unidentified. All this means is that, whenever there is a fake corpse, it must be possible to tell that it's fake if you can take a good look at it. By the way, Erika proves that this interpretation is correct in EP5, when she's in the same room as several "fake corpses" but doesn't realize that they're fake because she never looks at them.

Again, I don't see why the culprit has to specifically draw attention to the point that Shannon and Kanon are different people... how is it important that Battler keeps thinking this? He has no reason to doubt that fact at all.

And trusting words said over the phone has nothing to do with my point anyway.

Actually, in this case, it's a bit more obvious.
"Hey, is that you Shannon? Where's Kanon? Oh, he's disappeared somewhere? That's odd."

Great way to cut down all my objections, there. The ability of an author to say "it never happened, so it doesn't matter" is the entire danger behind fake scenes, like I've said before.

Except there must be a reason for all fake scenes, and there must be a way to find out which scenes are fake. After all, the spirit of Knox's laws do not allow for an unsolvable mystery. There is plenty of evidence to support my Battler-centric theory, and once you assume that theory is true, it is easy to trace where Battler got most of his info from.

Furthermore, and this is something people tend to forget, Meta-Beatrice wanted Battler to find the truth on his own. She had no motive for abusing magic scenes. On the contrary, we know in red that she made this game to be solvable. Therefore, magic scenes will give clues towards the truth whenever possible. We can never be sure that any particular scene is true, but if it isn't true, we know for a fact that there will be a way to find the truth hidden behind the scene.

Let's assume that your Battler-centric theory isn't true for a minute, and let's take the structure of the games at face value. How, then, do you explain how practically everyone knows about about Shkannon and yet feels the need to keep it a secret?

Why exactly? The Battler-centric theory not only explains Shkanon, it also explains why Battler's perspective is always true in the question arcs, it explains why Kyrie's story was necessary, it explains why the meeting with Battler and Beatrice at the end of EP2 was significant. My premises all have plenty of evidence pointing towards them, so I see no need to abandon them.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for insane size:

Wait, so it's a dirty trick to have Battler's perspective be not reliable in the very first episode where it is confirmed to be not reliable? They outright prove that his perspective isn't reliable in the climax at the end, and this is somehow a dirty trick?

The dirty trick is that it's possible to claim that any scene not narrated by Erika is narrated by Battler therefore those scenes are not reliable. It's as dubious as the devil's proof. This simply isn't true though. We have 5or 6 different narratives in episode 5. Erika narrative. Man from 19 years ago narrative, everyone narrative, Natsuhi Narrative, and Battler narrative, with a possibility in the study scene of a meta narrative. The dirty trick is you can claim that Battler is narrating when Erika isn't and your theory can be seen as true because you can deny the entire scene.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The dirty trick is that it's possible to claim that any scene not narrated by Erika is narrated by Battler therefore those scenes are not reliable. It's as dubious as the devil's proof. This simply isn't true though. We have 4 or 5 different narratives in episode 5. Erika narrative. Man from 19 years ago narrative, Natsuhi Narrative, and Battler narrative, with a possibility in the study scene of a meta narrative. The dirty trick is you can claim that Battler is narrating when Erika isn't and your theory can be seen as true because you can deny the entire scene.

Wait a second. Remember that EP5 is a core arc. It is very possible (and I did most of it) to reach something like my Battler-centric theory in the question arcs. So, in a sense, EP5 is a test of your EP1-4 answer. And it just so happens that the Battler-centric theory, which is needed to make Shkanontrice work in EP1-4, solves the problem in EP5 perfectly, and in fact, it explains several things that don't make sense otherwise.

Also, you can't deny entire scenes with my theory. If something isn't true in a scene, there must be a clear reason why. Otherwise, Knox would be violated. There is a clear indication that Sayo gave Battler the head's ring at about midnight, which explains why Battler would know her secret and try to keep it. And this happens the first time that Battler sees them together, which can't be a coincidence.

In other words, it's only a dirty trick if you haven't figured out the true rules of the game.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

That was me! 8)

The suspicion being that in almost every episode people were faking their deaths and then they were killed afterwards. Sometimes they are found after they have been killed *and* moved, so it doesn't preclude the possibility of a fake.

No, I meant actually in the story. I think it was Rosa, but it's been a while since I read it.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Also that this might be a way to discover new motivations and conspiracies behind some of the actions. That if it happened for one, two, three episodes that maybe it would've happened for all the episodes, except maybe something got in the way. Like circle painting, body moving, kinzo burning or kanon faking. 8)

To elaborate on what I said a couple posts back, I strongly suspect that most of the middlegame events in EP1 and EP2 can be explained by the servants trying to catch the culprit. Something like this, although I've probably got some details wrong:

Spoiler for Episode 1 middlegame:

Eva was found on her bed with her shoes still on, implying she was killed outside her room and then dragged back and posed. So we can propose this order of events:
1. Culprit X kills Eva, goes back to her room, and kills Hideyoshi in the shower. She probably locked the door when she left, but that's not really an issue because she would have had a room key.
2. Genji and Kanon find Eva's body, go to Eva's room, and find Hideyoshi's body.
3. After some planning, they carry Eva to her room and stake both bodies to make it look like the 2nd twilight. They paint the magic circle, place a "letter from Beatrice", and cut the door chain.
4. They want to fake Kanon's death so he can hunt the culprit freely, but the fourth twilight is "gouge the head and kill", which would be difficult to fake. So they get Kinzo's corpse, burn it, and stake it for the fourth twilight. Genji burns his study key with the corpse for identification purposes, or possibly as a message to Natsuhi.
5. After the 2nd twilight is discovered, Kanon and Kumasawa run ahead to the boiler room. Kumasawa helps him stage his own death using a stake and the red paint from before.
6. Nanjo lies about Kanon's condition. Jessica tags along to help treat him, so he fills her in once they're away from the group.

Spoiler for Episode 2 middlegame:

After returning from Kinzo's study, Rosa somehow knew where Jessica and Kanon were without being told. She was behaving strangely, and supported Genji and Shannon's lie about Kinzo for some reason. So we can propose this order of events:
1. Culprit X kills Jessica and Kanon, and hides Kanon's corpse to cast the blame on him.
2. Shannon and Genji discover Jessica's corpse. Rosa finds them discussing what to do. They decide to trick the other servants to see if one of them is the culprit. Rosa fetches a gun as well.
3. They stake the corpse and then lock the room from the outside with a master key before returning to the others.
4. Rosa immediately suggests they go find Jessica and Kanon, and asks Genji to lead the way.
5. Once in Jessica's room, Rosa theatrically points out Jessica's room key and says that the room could only be opened by a servant. She then constructs Shannon and Genji's alibis and accuses Kumasawa and Gohda. Although she doubts Shannon and Genji as well, she keeps silent to avoid compromising the plan.
6. Battler defends Kumasawa and Gohda, so Rosa accuses Kanon, which was not part of the plan. Genji and Shannon begin to suspect that Rosa is the murderer.
7. Later, they explain their suspicions to Kumasawa, Gohda, and Nanjo. They decide to have Kumasawa and Nanjo fake their deaths in the servants' room and construct a story about a fake Kanon to see how Rosa will react. This explains why Fake Kanon accused Rosa of being a murderer in the magic scene.
8. They spread a bunch of red paint on the floor and leave a "letter from Beatrice". They also leave Nanjo and Kumasawa's master keys behind so that Rosa won't suspect them. Genji locks the door from the outside with his master key.

[Judoh]

You haven't written much about Battler centric theory right? So I don't really know much about what it is. What I was talking about is mostly the scenes where Shannon and Kanon are seen together. And how if Battler is narrating you can deny they are together because Ryukishi says his perspective is not reliable.

What I'm pointing out is that there are certain narratives that are not Battler's and not Erika's that he never said weren't reliable.

For example when Erika is introduced in episode 5 the person narrating isn't Battler and it isn't Erika. It's possible that it's narrated from the perspective of everyone in the room that's why the narration can say that if you count everyone there it makes up 18 people.

As another example in the closet scene the narration switches from Natsuhi saying I did this I did that to she did this she did that. So the people narrating are Natsuhi and whoever is watching her and it switches back and forth between these narratives.

But for some reason only Battler's perspective is unreliable according to the interview. Does that mean none of the other people who narrate the episode are reliable? or are there some reliable narratives in episode 5 that aren't Erika's?