(L) Toradora! Novel Discussion

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

Agreed, it's simply amusing to see how some people get into a tiff about it. The comedy bits are there to 'lighten up', fan service as it were. Like a bit of flavoring added but not the main meat of the story.

Real life has moments of comedy, moments of tragedy, sometimes all in the same hour. That's what Clannad and for that matter Toradora try to sketch out. Aye, I don't know what that's so hard for some to grapple with. Someone you laugh with is someone you'll get more closely bound up with when bad things happen.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Some people don't like to think bad things can happen to things that made them laugh.

[wistfulloner]

Observing the series so far, it appears that the seriousness has been integrated into the comedy well enough. I wouldn't expect any complaints for the second season.

The series will still keep its comedy aspect, that's for sure. A sudden change in setting will be distasteful to certain viewers, and viewers are what makes an anime successful.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

The series will still keep its comedy aspect, that's for sure. .

Don't be so sure.

Spoiler for If the anime follows novels then:

the mood will become much more tensed and the comedy factor will decrease significantly.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Don't be so sure.

Spoiler for If the anime follows novels then:

the mood will become much more tensed and the comedy factor will decrease significantly.

That's a good recipe; start with light, fun material, after go for the heavier stuff. Of course the endding may go on way or a other.

[Tyabann]

Start with comedy and light stuff, pull the drama tag and watch everything fall apart, and then slowly build it back up for a happy, satisfying ending.


THIS is how you write stuff, dammit.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

However, I disagree with you Houkoholic that 10th volume will be enough for this series. The way volume 9 ends I think the series should end at volume 11th rather than 10th because there are still things left to resolve and relationship to build.

I'm pretty sure there's no more "relationships to build" after volume 9 because

Spoiler:

* Minorin and Ryuji's relationship is complete, Minorin is totally out of the main picture. She's going to be support only from now on, without a doubt.
* Ryuji and Taiga are pretty much only half a step from being officially a couple. This series had never pulled a cheap reset trick and I very much doubt that it would now too.

The main love relationships are gone, completely. What's left to resolve are only really two points:
* Taiga and Ryuji's own family issues, and in turn determines what they would do at school
* Ami's position in the group

Both of which are easily done in one volume. Volume 5 and 6 are indications of this. And even Ami's plot is arguably pretty minor.

The side characters of class 2-C won't get anymore development as this would be against the overall style of ToraDora thus far. We might get an epilogue of what the group turns out to be as they enter the final year of school as it's already been foreshadowed that they are pretty much going separate ways by then (thus hinting heavily that's the end of the story), and that would be about it I'm willing to bet.

[Darknemo2000]

And this is why I disagree with you

Spoiler for bah:

Taiga and Ryyuuji are not a couple yet. Considering that the family issues which do not seem to be resolved in a few lines are left as well as Ami's situation, considering that we still need to see them grow as a couple or elde it will not feel complete considering how long they took to reach it, to end it with well theys ort of got together after that does not feel right considering the story.

For me 10th volume is needed to solve family issues and Ami and them starting to be a couple. And volume 11th them establishing as a couple. And providing an epilogue to the whole series. Cramping it all up in one volume will guarantee us a rushed ending with a note 'and they become a couple after that' which is barely romantic at all.

For me, ending it with 10th volume would mean that Ryuuji and Taiga are not a real established couple at all. No one asks for it to go Clannad way, but at least showing them build up something in romance way would be nice, specially how long it took them to get there and that they are STILL not there.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

And this is why I disagree with you

Spoiler for bah:

Taiga and Ryyuuji are not a couple yet. Considering that the family issues which do not seem to be resolved in a few lines are left as well as Ami's situation, considering that we still need to see them grow as a couple or elde it will not feel complete considering how long they took to reach it, to end it with well theys ort of got together after that does not feel right considering the story.

For me 10th volume is needed to solve family issues and Ami and them starting to be a couple. And volume 11th them establishing as a couple. And providing an epilogue to the whole series. Cramping it all up in one volume will guarantee us a rushed ending with a note 'and they become a couple after that' which is barely romantic at all.

For me, ending it with 10th volume would mean that Ryuuji and Taiga are not a real established couple at all. No one asks for it to go Clannad way, but at least showing them build up something in romance way would be nice, specially how long it took them to get there and that they are STILL not there.

Spoiler:

If you still think that they need to get all "romantic" to be a couple I think you've been reading the wrong series all along. I hate to stereotype but ToraDora's romance is very much a female POV and almost cliche dream of a perfect stable couple relationship (due to author being female at all) rather than a male one, even though it is techinically a shounen series. The little things Taiga and Ryuji share is much more important and subtly showing deeper caring for each other - such as the amount of details the author goes and repeats on how they share a scarf (whether Taiga forcefully takes it from Ryuji, or Ryuji willfully giving it to Taiga and caringly wraps it for her, how they can smell each other's oder and shampoo from the same scarf etc), are very subtle while romantic to females for its gentle yet strong display of affection rather than the superficial "oh they kissed!" or "they hold hands!" type of young couple/shounen flirting romance. As I've pointed out in another thread (General), what they do for each other are already beyond what couples on their initial "still finding if they are right for each other" stage does, all they need is just to acknowledge their feelings, and they're most DEFINITELY there at the right point in acknowledging it (not even they, just Ryuji!). In fact, if they go back to make Taiga and Ryuji all blushy I would argue that it cheapens their relationship and it would be a cheap "reset" trick. If I have to make a comparison to another work, I would say the relationship in ToraDora is most similiar to Maison Ikkoku, Godai and Kyoko confessed to each other after all their trouble they went through and the last and only thing they did that could solidify their "romance" or raise their status as a couple was sex because after all that they had shared with each other of their life it was the only thing they had left to prove that they are a couple, their mentality as a couple were more than complete, they didn't need to date each other or anything like that. All that was left was physical lust (not saying that in a degrading way), and Takahashi Rumiko did exactly that in the story (what's left after Godai and Kyoko had sex in MI were personal issues, not their romance/relationship related issues, again a very similiar parallel can be drawn to ToraDora here). Taiga and Ryuji is pretty much the same thing, they are really, REALLY, only that far from being "officially" a couple. Though I'm sure the author probably won't do sex (this is shounen compared to seinen of MI), but a kiss after a passionate word confession is really all there is to it. Winding their relationship backwards to the flirting stage would be very very poor writing.

And since you've brought up Clannad, this is actually the same case in Clannad too. The people whinging about Tomoya/Nagisa not having even kissed yet and haven't done anything "romantice" but had already setup for marriage is totally missing the point. Again what they do shows something more than the physical lust, it is a mark of a complete relationship.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Start with comedy and light stuff, pull the drama tag and watch everything fall apart, and then slowly build it back up for a happy, satisfying ending.


THIS is how you write stuff, dammit.

Sorry , I was saying for story in general, I was not speakink of the case ot this Novel in particular.

And of course, the ''happy, satisfying ending'' do not fit every story.

[Tyabann]

I think more stories should have happy endings, though. Not that many do, these days...

[Vexx]

Asian literature has long loved murky, bittersweet, or tragic endings. Anime just tends to carry on that tradition. Happy endings are more a fixture of Western stories. I just cheer for the overlap.

[Darknemo2000]

Spoiler for lala:

Actually since it is POV the relationship also takes an important part in it and by it i mean the establishment. In fact a lot of female mangaka's like to establish the story after the first kiss happens.

Because just a little kiss always feels inusficient when we talk about the couple bringing.

Spiritual connection is important, but they havent even started to establish as a couple and they still have issues to deal with. For me a quick ending with 'and then they became sort of couple' at the very end would not do. I would like to see a complete ending bringing them as couple together, and not doing it in rush, which would happen if we would try to solve everything what's left in a single volume.

If it would end up in single volume you could say that Taiga and Ryuuji never become a real couple at all and that their romance isnt really a romance as it wasn't for majority of the series and this is just a momentary thing which will end in a few weeks or months at best, as they just confuse their closeness for romance.

I would like the author to make them into a couple and not a couple wannabe, and for that at least one volume is needed. If there were no other issues left, then sure, 10th volume would be enough, but since there are and I think they will take pretty much of the focus (as they are very seperate issues and have to be resolved separately, thus you need additional build up for each resolve)

I do agree that going to lets say volume 12th is too much, but going to 11th I believe is better than just stopping at 10th simply because we still have some issues to solve that I believe cannoty be solved so fast as you seem to believe.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Errrrr......I thought Vol 9 is pretty on the way for a finale in Vol 10. Where is Vol 11 creeping from?

[Darknemo2000]

From there that the issues that are left would not leave Ryuuji and Taiga as a romantic couple at all. And since they seem to make them a couple then another volume would be needed to bring out a good epilogue to all characters as well without being rushed. They are not a couple yet, and if the volume ends up with volume 10 then you can believe that they never will be a romantic couple as well since simply infatuation and romance are different things. Since the series seem to want to end them as couple it would be nice to bring out some actual romance between them, which cannot be played properly in a single volume where we still have some other issues at our hands, nor it could provide a good epilogue about other characters as well.

Unless I am understanding it badly and author does not want for Taiga and Ryuuji to be a romantic couple at all. Just sort of soul buddies that do not really have much romantic feelings for each other - then yes, one volume is enough, but if the author wants to end up with romantic undertone in there and to make them a couple (as in a rom. couple) then I believe another volume is needed, as the most build up is for them being connected with soul but actual romance is underplayed pretty hard.

[Vexx]

I wouldn't mind an in depth volume 10 and 11 .... but I also see the non-artistic (business) part of the energy curve for the series bearing down towards a synchronized ending for the books and series.

Actually, a nightmarish scenario would be to end the anime series with a volume 10 cliff-hanger and have people seek the *story* ending in the books (or in the DVD releases) :P Urk, bad thoughts - find happy place.

[wistfulloner]

Eh, what are we readers and viewers to do? We are but pawns in their game of business. I'm positively hoping JC staff doesn't pull such a dirty trick.

It's actually quite possible for the entire story to end fulfilling the starting hopes of the characters, such as Taiga with Kitamura and Ryuji with Minori. It would add a good twist to an almost certain ending. That would leave Ami as the odd one out, but I leave that dilemma into the capable hands of JC staff.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

capable hands of JC staff.

Just what have you been smoking? Must be really strong stuff, as you ignore their capabilities doing original paths in such series as ZnT and SnS. While it doesn't mean it will be so in here, but it definitely puts such statement about their original episode/ending capabilities under a serious question.

And why would you like to hurt Taiga? After all her having hopes for Kitamura would mean she is stuck forever in having unhappy onesided love, as Kitamura is in love with Sumire. And you dont have to read novels to know that - it is obvious in anime.

[typhonsentra]

A lot of thoughts regarding volume 6 but for tonight just one thing as I know I'll forget it if I don't write it down now: What's the deal with the perspective change at the end of this book?

Spoiler for (Nothing major, just being cautious):

The author abandons the format she followed through the rest of the book (And the rest of the series up to this point, at least what's been translated so far) and lets us see things from perspectives besides Ryuuji's. Does this happen a lot in the coming volumes? And before anyone says anything I realize Ryuuji isn't a narrator.

[roan]

She's been doing this since the end of volume 4. That's why I've been saying before that it's important to not skip volumes, and read the whole thing at once. It's extremely important for the next volume.

From a reader perspective, we keep in mind what's going on inside a character or what events happened off-screen from Ryuuji's pov, which was revealed at the end of the previous volume, and then gradually become irritated, because even though we already know that this happened or this is what this character is really thinking, nothing's overtly said until later in the volume.

What starts to happen around volume 4 marks the beginning of a dischord between what Ryuuji's thinking he's doing and what's really going on.