[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Oliver

As far as I can tell, it wasn't.

Nope, you were right. He gave it to her. I just checked.

However, it was also specified to be a cheap used book. Not something you would really expect to be returned, or go out of your way to use as an excuse to return. Doing that sort of thing is possible, but it takes some degree of social finesse. More finesse than I would expect from a kid. (Not only that, but there is a sort of time limit on it. Asking for a cheap book to be returned after a couple of years is different from the year after it happened.)

Originally Posted by Oliver

If Gaap is her imaginary friend, it's herself who wants to believe the quarrel will soon be over and that Rudolf wants it to be over. If she wants to believe it, it's sufficient even if she doesn't know for sure.

And Sakutaro believes that Rosa is doing everything for Maria's sake. Even Maria doesn't believe that, deep down. Wanting to believe something, and then acting as though it's true are two different things.

Originally Posted by Oliver

...Now that's when you start having to dip Genji and Kumasawa in the mud to cover that interpretation of Yasu.

I don't think it's dipping them in the mud. Think back to the end of EP7 when Yasu appears in Beatrice's dress on the way to Kinzo's study. Kumasawa talks about how this day has finally come. That means she was expecting it to happen eventually.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Same, but even more, and with much heavier implications. Essentially you're blaming Genji for indirectly making Yasu's romance fail and causing the entire mess, and taking some really heavy risks if he really believes what you say he believes, all in hopes of Kinzo suddenly going sane.

I'm just going by what the game itself says. I don't think Genji is to blame for Yasu's romance failing. We're talking in complete hypotheticals. In reality, Yasu never told anyone that she was in love with Battler and was waiting for him to come back. This means Genji had absolutely no influence on her relationship one way or the other.

What we know about Genji is that he wanted to keep her close in case Kinzo came to his senses and he could introduce them. Again, these are Genji's own words. Why would Genji keep his own daughter on the island in order to introduce her to Kinzo? Genji's motivation as given in the game makes perfect sense, as do his actions.

Originally Posted by Oliver

I don't mean just the general "police". Local police. The people who are charged with knowing who in their district has a heart disease in that country. In particular, Kumasawa definitely can get Rudolf's location and Asumu's maiden name, if she doesn't know these already. This isn't something knocking on a few doors wouldn't solve.

Finding Battler isn't as easy as that, though. You still have to know the general location he moved to. And we still haven't established that Kumasawa would be willing to go to the trouble to do this. She loves Yasu, but she also has reason to avoid matchmaking for this particular pair of children.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

However, it was also specified to be a cheap used book. Not something you would really expect to be returned, or go out of your way to use as an excuse to return.

It would really make Battler suspect there might be some special reason for this to happen and find the letter glued in, though, wouldn't it.

Originally Posted by musouka

I'm just going by what the game itself says. I don't think Genji is to blame for Yasu's romance failing. We're talking in complete hypotheticals. In reality, Yasu never told anyone that she was in love with Battler and was waiting for him to come back. This means Genji had absolutely no influence on her relationship one way or the other.

Sorry, but either he wants her to stay on the island or he doesn't have any opinion on the subject, you can't really do both.

Originally Posted by musouka

Genji's motivation as given in the game makes perfect sense, as do his actions.

To me it does not make sense, and so far you haven't said anything that would convince me. Mind you, many, many other aspects of the Yasu story make no sense whatsoever for me and raise eyebrows.

You could, of course, say "this is because you don't have love", but that would be silly, because I can use the same argument and give a complete, but very different meaning of what it means "to have love". To my eyes, Yasu's tale looks like a cruel mockery of a love story.

Originally Posted by musouka

Finding Battler isn't as easy as that, though. You still have to know the general location he moved to. And we still haven't established that Kumasawa would be willing to go to the trouble to do this. She loves Yasu, but she also has reason to avoid matchmaking for this particular pair of children.

When a child has a problem, they tend to ask a parent figure for help. Kumasawa clearly acts as one even when Genji does not.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Oliver

It would really make Battler suspect there might be some special reason for this to happen and find the letter glued in, though, wouldn't it.

I guess. And then he calls and says "Hey, Shannon, what's up? You wanted to talk to me about something?" which is basically the same as not getting the letter.

Yasu is...I wouldn't say religious, but she's superstitious. As Used Can said, it was in her head that she should wait, and she tended to see evidence to the contrary as tests of faith. You can blame her for being this way, but she's not the type of person you want her to be. That's just the way she is.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Sorry, but either he wants her to stay on the island or he doesn't have any opinion on the subject, you can't really do both.

I'm not saying it's both. I'm saying he would prefer her to stay on the island. If he really wanted her to make a choice, he would have pulled her aside and told her the truth about everything, then let her make the choice about what she wanted to do, instead of giving her a hint to solve the epitaph and leaving the rest to "fate".

Originally Posted by Oliver

To me it does not make sense, and so far you haven't said anything that would convince me.

I'm sorry, but the scenario put forth by the game is consistent. Flights of fancy like "Yasu is Genji's daughter" is not. You are free to partake in whatever sort of flight you want, but you might want to start compiling evidence from the games to back up your claims.

Originally Posted by Oliver

You could, of course, say "this is because you don't have love", but that would be silly, because I can use the same argument and give a complete, but very different meaning of what it means "to have love". To my eyes, Yasu's tale looks like a cruel mockery of a love story.

To my eyes, Yasu and her story is beautiful and tragic. You might not want to accept it, but I see absolutely no reason not to. Under your scenario, this game is just a waste of time. It is Ryukishi releasing pages and pages and hours and hours of nothing just to make you upset. I do not accept that because I don't believe it's a waste of time. I think Ryukishi accomplished something amazing and beautiful with this chapter.

Originally Posted by Oliver

When a child has a problem, they tend to ask a parent figure for help.

Except in love.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

To my eyes, Yasu and her story is beautiful and tragic. You might not want to accept it, but I see absolutely no reason not to. Under your scenario, this game is just a waste of time. It is Ryukishi releasing pages and pages and hours and hours of nothing just to make you upset. I do not accept that because I don't believe it's a waste of time. I think Ryukishi accomplished something amazing and beautiful with this chapter.

Well, further discussion is pointless then, as this is actually a fundamental interpretation disagreement.

Mind you - I have arguments to believe why pages and pages of "nothing" would in fact be the most important episode in the entire story. I have previously explained why in this thread, so I won't repeat it, but my opinion is definitely not baseless.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Mind you - I have arguments to believe why pages and pages of "nothing" would in fact be the most important episode in the entire story. I have previously explained why in this thread, so I won't repeat it, but my opinion is definitely not baseless.

Arguments based on what you want the story to be and what you want it to be about, not what the story actually is and what it's actually about. Sort of like Yasu's character. You judge her as having not done enough by some sort of universal standard. I judge her as having done the best she could with her own unique limitations.

EDIT: My apologies. That sounds overly harsh. I really don't begrudge people their own opinions about the episode, but I do think a lot of people are missing the point and that makes me sad.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I can't really make an honest judgement on this matter...I have no idea who Yasu is or how she is involved. If someone could give a small summary of what happens I'd really appreciate IT.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

My apologies. That sounds overly harsh. I really don't begrudge people their own opinions about the episode, but I do think a lot of people are missing the point and that makes me sad.

That's perfectly fine -- because I think the same thing, just about a very different point.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I can't really make an honest judgement on this matter...I have no idea who Yasu is or how she is involved. If someone could give a small summary of what happens I'd really appreciate IT.

You should probably wait for MeteoTwister's summary. But if you want a quick answer, Yasu is the "real" Beato and the baby from 19 years ago.

As for making a judgement, if you want my honest opinion, even if you were to read the whole episode, understanding Yasu is still rather hard. At first glance several things would seem to be rather obvious, but there are several details that seem really off.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Used Can

You should probably wait for MeteoTwister's summary. But if you want a quick answer, Yasu is the "real" Beato and the baby from 19 years ago.

I thought Lyon was the baby from 19 years ago. Which is certainly strange, considering that he/she bears too many similarities to Jessica.

Actually...

Is Kinzo's Wife's hair, I don't know, rainbow colored or something? I don't think it could be possible to have FOUR kids with at least THREE different hair colors. Especially if Kinzo's hair color is WHITE.

Maybe...Kinzo's wife wasn't faithful?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

I thought Lyon was the baby from 19 years ago. Which is certainly strange, considering that he/she bears too many similarities to Jessica.

Leon's an alternate Yasu. They're both the baby from nineteen years ago. Leon was just accepted by Natsuhi and raised as a part of the family, as opposed to getting dropped off a cliff.

[Renall]

Also we've all just tacitly accepted the existence of this person has to be true because... something something.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

Is Kinzo's Wife's hair, I don't know, rainbow colored or something? I don't think it could be possible to have FOUR kids with at least THREE different hair colors. Especially if Kinzo's hair color is WHITE.

Hair colour inheritance is a muddled question in genetics, but the Japanese have more or less the same hair colour throughout the ethnicity, and it's all shades of black and very dark brown. Notice how all the Ushiromiya have uniform black eyes of exactly the same shade. The practice of dyeing hair only became in any way widespread for men in the 90s as far as I'm aware. Hair colours in artwork started progressively exaggerating the natural shades starting around 80s for artistic reasons, and white hair is normally a symbol of madness...

I'd say disregard this, if hair colour wasn't an issue raised in the text, because Beatrice's blonde hair is mentioned on many occasions. I'm afraid we aren't getting anything thinking in this direction except maybe a logic error.

It is possible for Kinzo to have very early loss of hair colour, but this is normally an inherited trait too, so in some of his children it would be evident, and none of them would ever have properly blonde hair seen on Leon because of it.

Mind you... If Beatrice-1 is Italian, it's less unusual for her to be blonde than it is for Japanese, but still fairly unusual.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

It is possible for Kinzo to have very early loss of hair colour, but this is normally an inherited trait too, so in some of his children it would be evident, and none of them would ever have properly blonde hair seen on Leon because of it.

This is also a genetic trait of the Sumaderas, which makes young Kinzo's reveal on his appearance really weird, but it didn't weird me out too much because I knew there was a fan theory of Kinzo being future Battler in the past because a lot of Ryukishi's fans are also fans of Nasu and Fate/stay night.

Don't do it Battler! you'll create a time paradox!

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Notice how all the Ushiromiya have uniform black eyes of exactly the same shade.

I can swear Maria's and Ange's eyes are actually dark blue and not black.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I can swear Maria's and Ange's eyes are actually dark blue and not black.

This is true. It's probably a reference to their status as -Beatrice-s in EP4. (Although Evatrice doesn't have blue eyes, does she? Red?)

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

This is also a genetic trait of the Sumaderas, which makes young Kinzo's reveal on his appearance really weird, but it didn't weird me out too much because I knew there was a fan theory of Kinzo being future Battler in the past because a lot of Ryukishi's fans are also fans of Nasu and Fate/stay night.

There is actually a chance Sumaderas and Ushiromiyas are related a couple branches up the tree, Kinzo's mother or father could be from a branch family of theirs, and while Kinzo inherited the trait, in his own children it was lost. But there's little to nothing to support this thought and even less to come out of it, so...

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I can swear Maria's and Ange's eyes are actually dark blue and not black.

Well, yes, Maria's are #211C53, and so are Ange's. Every other non-magical character has #262323, and that includes Leon. Little Eva has #003CAE, and so do Evatrice, Beatrice, Gaap, Virgilia, Erika, Ronove...

Sakutarou, Siestas and the Stakes, Gertrude and Cornelia have #CC0C0C, Will and Dlanor have #FFC100. Zepar/Furfur have #49FFFA. Lambda and Bern have unique colors #C24900 and #9D00AA respectively. Hachijou is the odd one out, she and AuAurora have #882B88.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

Also we've all just tacitly accepted the existence of this person has to be true because... something something.

Because there's no good reason not to.

Seriously. Ignoring the existence of Yasu is ignoring the entire core and purpose of the seventh game. It makes Will and Leon existing pointless, their last stand a waste of time, and wastes the time of the reader. It means the story has no overarching theme and has nothing to say. It means the characters have no discernible motivation for any of their actions.

Even if I hated Yasu and what she stood for, I would rather have her than a game that makes no sense.

[Renall]

That's a false dichotomy and you know it. Multiple false dichotomies, in fact:

• Yasu Must Exist As Shown or Not Exist: ...okay, why? Why can't some individual exist who is not as depicted?
• If Yasu Does Not Exist, Will & Leon Are Pointless: Why? They serve their narrative function whether they ever existed or not. And Leon's existence is remarkably razor-thin to begin with, or so we're told. He may as well be fiction either way. How does that invalidate his contributions to the narrative?
• If Yasu Does Not Exist, The Story Has No Theme: Or it has... a different theme?
• If The Yasu Story's Motives Are Not True, No Motives Make Sense: This is outright absurd given that many of the motives in the Yasu story themselves are highly questionable.
• If The Yasu Story Is False, The Game Makes No Sense: Implying (1) the Yasu story makes sense, (2) no other interpretation could make sense, (3) the purpose of the Yasu story was to make sense as communicated truth.

I don't see how we can say any of these things right now.

[Erisette]

But it is possible for Claire's tales and the testimonies to mislead or lie? Didn't Will get a privilege that prevents that?