Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kyubei

[Akashin]

Huh, last post got deleted... Didn't mean for that last remark to sound baiting, but it did. My bad; I am done on this topic though, if it has indeed been beaten to death before.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Huh, last post got deleted... Didn't mean for that last remark to sound baiting, but it did. My bad; I am done on this topic though, if it has indeed been beaten to death before.

Haha, no biggie, that's how it is . People clash in their ideals trying to get one's point across, knowing that, chances are, you won't convince the other party, especially in morally(har har) grey areas such as this =03.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Akashin

In a perfect world yes, he would come to our planet and adhere to our sense of morality. But he doesn't, and it's understandable why; whether or not Incubators really were superior (there's no denying their technological superiority, but overall superiority is debatable), he believes them to be superior--and if not that, at least more important. This doesn't give him any rightful authority to spit on humanity's rights, and I still haven't said any such thing, nor have I said that he has any right to enforce his morals upon others. I keep getting the impression that we're arguing under the assumption that I agree with Kyubey here; stop putting words in my mouth, please.

That Kyubey is evil in the sense of our own morality is unquestionable; I'm losing the ability to count the number of times I've said this on one hand. But by his own alien morality he is not evil; accounting for the fact that this is a legitimate fact is not a difficult concept. We keep arguing that he has to be evil but in doing so we keep coming back to him being evil being reliant upon adhering to human morality; if your argument is simply that in the scope of human morality he is evil then we can stop right now, since there I agree with you fully.

It is that him being evil by human morality somehow makes him evil in the grand scheme of things that I disagree with. This doesn't make his actions better, not at all. But that he lacked malicious intent in doing what he did--and in fact had benevolent intent, for whatever reason--is a relevant point to make. And it is exactly that point that draws the line between him being fully evil and him being evil by human morality.

I feel like I'm beginning to repeat myself here. =/

See, my problem is you actually believe it is relevant at all if QB think he is evil or not.

Intent has nothing to do with with the outcome. His actions are evil, it doesn't matter what he feels about it.

Here are the facts; very few people who ARE evil, believe they are. So if you think it only matters if QB think he is evil, you are going in the completely wrong direction.

Do I have to invoke Godwin's Law here or what?

Do you have any idea how many evil men feel justified doing what they do? Do you have any idea how rare it is that any criminal think they are in the wrong?

"QB doesn't think he himself is evil" is not an argument for anything.

[Yui Is My Wife]

What complicates all this is the assumption that there is no such thing as "universal morality."

In that rapists, murderers and QB don't even know what they are doing is wrong, with the defence of sociopathy for the first two and cultural difference for the final defendant.

The trouble is, they ALL clearly know what they are doing is screwed up, otherwise the former 2 would not run in terror when the cops come knocking and the last one wouldn't even bother to be invisible to the everyday Muggles.

There is but ONE universal morality, that all three of the above types of evil losers KNOW but WILLFULLY ignore; one's duty to NEVER be complicit in the destruction of another being's welfare, dignity, happiness and life.

That alien-fleabag would not bother speaking in half truths (as opposed to the WHOLE truth from the get-go) and play chess from the shadows if he was REALLY convinced of the righteousness of its cause.

[Dark Wing]

Okay slice it however you guys like it but one thing has was been clear Kyuube and his people has always gave these girls a choice, To contract or not to contract that in itself shows you they see us more the mare livestock but sentient beings who help us advance as fare as we did exchange for the lives of a few.

Seems like a fare trade off to me...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Okay slice it however you guys like it but one thing has was been clear Kyuube and his people has always gave these girls a choice, To contract or not to contract that in itself shows you they see us more the mare livestock but sentient beings who help us advance as fare as we did exchange for the lives of a few.

Seems like a fare trade off to me...

To sign a contract with most of the fine-print being written in invisible ink is fraud.

I am sure there are some contracts I would like you to sign for me if you think this is okay.

Further, it is not the trade-off of the lives of the few, as the ultimate result, if left alone, is the extinction of the human race by super-witches. Thus it is the death of every member of the human race we are paying.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

To sign a contract with most of the fine-print being written in invisible ink is fraud.

I am sure there are some contracts I would like you to sign for me if you think this is okay.

Further, it is not the trade-off of the lives of the few, as the ultimate result, if left alone, is the extinction of the human race by super-witches. Thus it is the death of every member of the human race we are paying.

Of course the full details are cryptic...Who would actually volunteer to be a sacrifice?

Okay how do we know this for sure because the only super witches we knew of are WN and Madoka's Witch form and only reason Madoka's Witch was so powerful was because of Homaru's interference.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Of course the full details are cryptic...Who would actually volunteer to be a sacrifice?

Um... Madoka herself just did.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Of course the full details are cryptic...Who would actually volunteer to be a sacrifice?

Okay how do we know this for sure because the only super witches we knew of are WN and Madoka's Witch form and only reason Madoka's Witch was so powerful was because of Homaru's interference.

There was some maths done on the Madoka Wiki to determine that under the original system, human annihilation by Witches was a certainty, with the tipping point being when Witches grow in number faster than Magical Girls can kill them. After which the normal human population would collapse from the exploding Witch population killing people, and the planet becomes empty of all life but Witches soon after.

And since QB's mission is to make as many Witches from Magical Girls as possible, as that's where he gets his energy from, he is making extinction happen the better he is doing his job. Made worse by the fact that he doesn't even try to prevent causing human extinction at all.

p.s. involuntary sacrifice is not sacrifice, it's murder. And I think I have seen what kind of person you are to think you would want "involuntary sacrifices".
I had chicken for lunch today. The chicken was not sacrificed, It was killed. It died because I want to eat.

"Sacrifice" applies only to volunteers.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There was some maths done on the Madoka Wiki to determine that under the original system, human annihilation by Witches was a certainty, with the tipping point being when Witches grow in number faster than Magical Girls can kill them. After which the normal human population would collapse from the exploding Witch population killing people, and the planet becomes empty of all life but Witches soon after.

And since QB's mission is to make as many Witches from Magical Girls as possible, as that's where he gets his energy from, he is making extinction happen the better he is doing his job. Made worse by the fact that he doesn't even try to prevent causing human extinction at all.

Interesting...if you have the link I'd like to see this equation you speak of...

p.s. involuntary sacrifice is not sacrifice, it's murder. And I think I have seen what kind of person you are to think you would want "involuntary sacrifices".
I had chicken for lunch today. The chicken was not sacrificed, It was killed. It died because I want to eat.

"Sacrifice" applies only to volunteers.

Yes that is every much true I shouldn't have over looked that detail but I don't think the uses of a chicken as the analogy would applies here the chicken is just livestock it's not on the same level of intelligences as me so why should feel bad for eating it?

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Interesting...if you have the link I'd like to see this equation you speak of...

The population dynamics he's talking about are here.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Akashin

The population dynamics he's talking about are here.

The simple model provides a mathematical basis for explaining certain idiosyncrasies of the Magica universe, but suffers from overly generalized assumptions that breaks down in some situations. Several refinements were attempted on the simple model to account for these problems. Unfortunately, these refinements need more complex sets of differential equations to properly describe the model, which do not have general solutions and can only be interpreted through simulations.

Which means that this isn't a 100% accurate prediction of what might have happened in the near future because certain variables were not taken into account for example:

- How long each girl would be able to live before death or witch hood.

- How many witches and/or familiars would each girl be able to exterminate before death or witch hood.

- How many girls can be contracted at a time vs. the witches growth rate.

So while it's safe to say that one super power witch would indeed be able to destroy all mankind the chances of this occurring is very slim at best.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Which means that this isn't a 100% accurate prediction of what might have happened in the near future because certain variables were not taken into account for example:

- How long each girl would be able to live before death or witch hood.

- How many witches and/or familiars would each girl be able to exterminate before death or witch hood.

- How many girls can be contracted at a time vs. the witches growth rate.

So while it's safe to say that one super power witch would indeed be able to destroy all mankind the chances of this occurring is very slim at best.

Eh, I wouldn't call the chances very slim necessarily. On the other hand I wouldn't call it an immediate crisis either; more like a worry for the future kind of thing.

[roriconfan]

QB: Ok guys we need to find a plan to save the universe as fast and as easy as possible. I found this planet where the creatures there can be granted wishes. If I manage to convince a billion of the ones they call lolis to make a wish and be present to farm half of them who turn to beasts, then in ten thousant years I am sure we will have enough energy to save the hundreds of billions of galaxies out there. I know it sounds far-fetched but this is the best an advanced race like us can think of at the moment so bear with it. All I have to do is to be very cryptic and never tell them right away why I am doing all that.

Random alien: How about explaining everything to the very first human you meet and have him wishing for the universe to be saved? Won't that save us time and effort?

(Homura appears above him with black wings and bows the alien to death)

Homura: Pretend you didn't hear that. Go on with your plan; I kinda like my new powers.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Random alien: How about explaining everything to the very first human you meet and have him wishing for the universe to be saved? Won't that save us time and effort?

I want to re-use my "not sure if serious" pic, but not even that really explains my feelings about this adequately. Suffice to say, I'm desperately hoping this was not in any way a serious scenario; there are too many problems here to even begin addressing them.

[/Doesn'tgetthejoke]

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

QB: Ok guys we need to find a plan to save the universe as fast and as easy as possible. I found this planet where the creatures there can be granted wishes. If I manage to convince a billion of the ones they call lolis to make a wish and be present to farm half of them who turn to beasts, then in ten thousant years I am sure we will have enough energy to save the hundreds of billions of galaxies out there. I know it sounds far-fetched but this is the best an advanced race like us can think of at the moment so bear with it. All I have to do is to be very cryptic and never tell them right away why I am doing all that.

Random alien: How about explaining everything to the very first human you meet and have him wishing for the universe to be saved? Won't that save us time and effort?

(Homura appears above him with black wings and bows the alien to death)

Homura: Pretend you didn't hear that. Go on with your plan; I kinda like my new powers.

You know we need a joke thread....

[roriconfan]

There already is a fanfiction thread for the more serious (?) spin-off, so why not one for the silly ones too?

[Solace]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Random alien: How about explaining everything to the very first human you meet and have him wishing for the universe to be saved? Won't that save us time and effort?

First episode: "I wish the universe was saved"

Universe is saved, then destroyed by a massive Witch.

Incubators: "Well....that wasn't exactly as planned...."

*Madoka opening song plays while credits roll*

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Solace

First episode: "I wish the universe was saved"

Universe is saved, then destroyed by a massive Witch.

Incubators: "Well....that wasn't exactly as planned...."

*Madoka opening song plays while credits roll*

lol. this is fun. i guess the series would end less than half an hour. but kidding a side, i doubt if the original human/madoka ever has enough karmic potential to wish such a thing. qb somewhat implied that some wish might be impossible. a grand wish by madoka only became possible because of intervention by homu.

[Solace]

Even if a person had that potential, the system would turn them into a Witch to balance out the wish. The reason Madoka escapes this fate is specifically because of her wish, causing her to destroy her Witch form and thus create a paradox that erases her from corporeal existence.

To keep this on topic, the new system actually increases the positive morality of the relations between Humans and Incubators. In the old system, Kyubey had to manipulate information to get what he wanted, but in the new system he has no need for such things. He can be totally forthcoming with every aspect of the system and still find girls willing to contract. In fact, he probably does, if you think about what Mami tells Kyoko after Sayaka disappears.

Clearly he shows that if he had the chance to use the old system again, he would, but he's not entirely dissatisfied with the new system either. Since he has no memory of what the old system was like, and it's impossible to prove Homura's story, he pretty much has to suck it up and deal with what he's got.