Macross Delta - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Full_armor]

If lady M is a previously known character, I would guess her to Myung Fan Lone. Mikumo seems like an artificial construct of some sort, the OP scene, the 'mysterious' background her putting herself in harms-way all the time and needing less sound boosting equipment.

I doubt that the identity of Lady M would be revealed anyways and her real identity could be anybody given the great number of people whose name starts with a M and that 'M' might not refer to a person's name.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with Ippus re: Mirage.

DL'ing the ep right now. I'll get back to you later, might be after sleep, because my night shift is over now. Shleeepy...

[Tenzen12]

I knew that Freya getting head start meant very little, I also new it's just matter of time before Mirage catch with her. What I didn't expect is she will be actually able overtake her in single episode spurt

Next episode seems also Delta platoon centered and Freya seems have enough of own troubles. As I see it, she will need some help from plot to get back on the horse.

Originally Posted by ippus

Er...to be honest, I sorta took it as; she spent most of the battle watching out for Hayate's back because that's kind of her job (and cus she's a marshmallow).

Prior to it she was keeping him alive by distracting an enemy unit when he was open + lopping the machine's head off during a grapple. Nobody else is bothering because they basically assigned babysitting duty onto her, and she's serious enough of a person to not let him get killed. From the very start she considered him a civillian not military, so it's only right that she still worries.

He then literally bum rushed after the two pros dueling (...because he wanted to) and she was sent chasing after his reckless act. Sure he turned out alright on his own, but that's the entire point about Hayate now isn't it? He's unpredictable, but that goes both ways, to the enemy but Mirage as well. She can't just assume he'll survive in a war (yet) but that also put her in a disadvantaged position.

While I initially took whole thing "let herself distracted by Hayate for some reason", you pointing her responsibilities as instructor (and being very straigh laced Marshmallow) her action look lot more legit and yup she did very good job in keeping her cute kohai alive. Well while both of them lacking now in some areas, I think we saw birth of tag team that no-one will be able underestimate in future. For now even both of them combined wouldn't be probably able even make Messer serious though.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I knew that Freya getting head start meant very little, I also new it's just matter of time before Mirage catch with her. What I didn't expect is she will be actually able overtake her in single episode spurt

Of course Mirage was going to have romantic development with Hayate. Why do you think it's called a "love triangle"? But "very little meaning"? "Overtake"? Wow, somebody's getting ahead of himself. I have no idea how you're seeing this as Mirage overtaking Freya, or it making Freya's starting development any less meaningful. Save that call for 18-19 episodes from now. I have no doubt Mirage will gain more ground (otherwise there's no love triangle between the three of them), but you're getting way too ahead of yourself from just one scene. No offense, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're making mile-long leaps and writing off heavy development and chemistry as "meaning very little" after just one scene. It's way too early to call winner or loser for either side.

[Tenzen12]

I didn't call winer nor looser yet, just commented on current state of race. I checked my post three times and still can't find anything that should give you any wrong impression

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Of course Mirage was going to have romantic development with Hayate. Why do you think it's called a "love triangle"? But "very little meaning"? "Overtake"? Wow, somebody's getting ahead of himself. I have no idea how you're seeing this as Mirage overtaking Freya, or it making Freya's starting development any less meaningful. Save that call for 18-19 episodes from now. I have no doubt Mirage will gain more ground (otherwise there's no love triangle between the three of them), but you're getting way too ahead of yourself from just one scene. No offense, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're making mile-long leaps and writing off heavy development and chemistry as "meaning very little" after just one scene. It's way too early to call winner or loser for either side.

Eh I think you're being a tad harsh as well. I can see what Tenzen is getting at.

In the case of Mirage, he has sort of changed leaps and bounds in the way he treats her. From the start of the episode where she showed a strong professionalism towards criticism, to him trying to cheer her up as allies, to her watching his back, him coming back to save her through breaking his own values, and finally just the way he treats her when she tries to relate to him at the end, at the very least he's grown a lot of respect for her and he confirms it by thanking her as an instructor. I do like how subtle it all is.

Like just an episode ago he chewed her out for trying to relate something to Freyja when she was down. He's been on the defensive with Mirage for a while now but this time he treats her a hellalot better. I mean she related her military experience (last time is was just her grandparents' love story)...Hayate has made it amply clear that he hates the military, hates being a soldier and doesn't want to fly to kill. He didn't take offense at her story this time and took it as her cheering him up. That's frigging ridiculous.

Granted he's being affected by a lot of things and I still don't think anyone is romantically motivated yet, which i'm realllyyy enjoying, but Mirage's had a far more interesting development just in this episode compared to Hayate with Freyja's interactions. I mean it's Ep 6 right now, Freyja and Hayate's both been in basically the same spot since Ep 2 (aka we get along well, I'm protective of her and your music is spinach to my popeye).

Of course the scales will tip the other way soon enough. I'm honestly more interested in Messer's angsty non-love-life though as far as triangles go.

Edit: THAT ISN'T TO SAY THE FREYJA - HAYATE INTERACTIONS AREN'T CUTE
They've been pretty much mostly the same though.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I didn't call winer nor looser yet, just commented on current state of race. I checked my post three times and still can't find anything that should give you any wrong impression

I didn't get any wrong impressions. You said that this episode pushed Mirage past Freya in the triangle. At only a quarter through the show, that's jumping the gun.
I never said you were calling the winner, though. I was speaking in general.

Originally Posted by ippus

Eh I think you're being a tad harsh as well. I can see what Tenzen is getting at.

This kind of gun-jumping so early in the race after just one scene is best nipped in the bud.

[Tenzen12]

Saying that Freya had advantage was not "jumping the gun", she did. On same note, now it's Mirage instead. Neither of that been impossible see by bare eyes.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Full_armor

If lady M is a previously known character, I would guess her to Myung Fan Lone.

This. Yeah, I'm with you on this one.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Saying that Freya had advantage was not "jumping the gun", she did. On same note, now it's Mirage instead. Neither of that been impossible see by bare eyes.

Freya has had five episodes of great chemistry with Hayate so far. To say Mirage took the lead after one good scene with Hayate is jumping the gun.

[Tenzen12]

With exception it's not one scene (I am not even sure which one you mean, as there is several candidates). Anyway Hayate right now doesn't fly for sake of dreams but for sake of protecting people which put him closer to Mirage.

He might go back enjoying himself once sky is free of bloodshed, but now it would be rather difficult...

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Anyway Hayate right now doesn't fly for sake of dreams but for sake of protecting people which put him closer to Mirage.

That's kinda besides the point. Freyja and Hayate are so close and in sync they complete each other's lines. Hayate and Mirage aren't that close yet.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

While I initially took whole thing "let herself distracted by Hayate for some reason", you pointing her responsibilities as instructor (and being very straigh laced Marshmallow) her action look lot more legit and yup she did very good job in keeping her cute kohai alive. Well while both of them lacking now in some areas, I think we saw birth of tag team that no-one will be able underestimate in future. For now even both of them combined wouldn't be probably able even make Messer serious though.

That's a good point, there is a real possibility that they might evolve as a team supreme, who together are an unbeatable unit.

---

So, the takeaways from this episode are that NUNS isn't coming soon to solve all this, because they have their own problems and consider this a small border dispute (though I think that "four planets have been annexed by that planet who won a rebellion against us" is something which would raise more than a few eyebrows). Makes you wonder what their "own problems" exactly are.

The romance finally gets going, though they are doing a very subtle burn on it. I like it, Delta is another story than Frontier after all. And you'll never surpass Sheryl x Alto anyway. Might as well concentrate on another aspect of Macross. I guess we'll skip the extra fierce shipping wars this time.

The Windermerans crown prince pretty much looks like he will get his younger brother killed with his fanaticism. What we saw confirmed most of our speculations and the real motivation for the Windermeran expansionism seems to find the correct McGuffin to fix what they did to their planet, instead of being some diffuse nationalistic superiority complex (which is not to say that there aren't members of the Aerial Knights coughBoguecough who have that personality trait).

The writers are keeping the characterization of the other members of Walkure and Delta at the levels of the tertiary cast of Frontier (i.e. Cathy, Ozma and Bobby), which seems about right with the number of characters. The Aerial Knights are getting the worst of it in terms of characterization. They are pretty much one personality trait each.

[Triple_R]

Excellent Episode 6.

The action scenes were fine, and I loved the artistic decision to have various Walkure faces show up on the side of asteroids during the main fight.

But for me, the highlights of the episode were much more the superb character development than the good action scenes. Freyja and Hayate are already well-developed, and so was Mirage to some extent, but the rest of the central cast really needed more focus. And I think that Episode 6 handled that superbly.

I now have a good feel for all of the following:

1. Walkure as a whole, and each of its individual members.

2. Arad and Messer's characters.

3. Lightly hinted relationships/romances within the main cast (Arad/Kaname and Makina/Reina). It doesn't feel forced or pandering. Instead it feels very natural and lively, making this show come to life that much more.

4. The overall dynamic between Walkure and the pilot side of Delta Squadron. I really like the easy-going camaraderie between Walkure and Delta pilots. Walkure don't act like pampered divas that would consider it a waste of time to hang out with soldiers, and Delta pilots don't act like Walkure are just performers that couldn't possibly relate to the troubles of a soldier. Much to the contrary, they all feel like one big family that communicate very easily with each other without the slightest hint of celebrity ego or strong emotional boundaries.


The Windermere side also received a decent amount of focus, and that scar reveal was a good way to end the episode! Yeah, looks like Kazu-kun is right in his speculations that Windermere has some hidden secret/issue that's helping to motivate its hasty war actions.


Now, the love triangle... The main positive is now we actually have one. Tenzen12 probably overstated Mirage's jump in this episode, but nonetheless, Mirage did make quite a jump in this episode. Both in her relationship with Hayate, and also in her character as a whole. This was easily Mirage's best episode yet, in my view. She came off as very likeable, and she had some good lines.

Either HayateXMirage or HayateXFrejya can very easily and seamlessly transition into a complete open romance after this episode. It would take at least a few episodes to do either as well as possible, but it could definitely be done without much trouble at all. Hayate has considerable warmth and friendship with both girls, and some very cute moments with each (the mutual thumbs-up between Hayate and Mirage in Episode 5 stands out a lot to me here).

Which of the two pairings you prefer probably comes down to who you like most between Mirage and Freyja, and/or what you most like to see as the basis of a romance.

Hayate and Freyja have impressively parallel character arcs, showing considerable personality similarity between the two. Their bond is a strong and basic personality one.

Hayate and Mirage are now close comrades on the battlefield, and that also has its own charm to be sure.

Romance based on similar personality, or romance based on shared duty, might be a good way to sum up the love triangle so far. I don't think either girl has a big edge on the other, at this point. So I think we have a very fun and well-balanced love triangle here, which is probably for the best.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's kinda besides the point. Freyja and Hayate are so close and in sync they complete each other's lines. Hayate and Mirage aren't that close yet.

Hayate and Freya would make fine cute couple, but I find that significantly less important than life's goal, aspirations and values. Hayate didn't have anything like that so he tagged along with Freya who had, it's thanks to her find his calling, but this is moment when their path diverge. Freya will walk her own path Hayate and Mirage go other. Even though nothing is decided yet, this is pretty massive handicap.

EDIT: Well, when I said Mirage overtook Freya I meant from Doylist perspective, not Watsonian. At moment Freya is still probably closer to Hayate at personal level (I wouldn't bet any limb on it though).Regardless considering there is still no romance in "love triangle" later is only one that matter for time being.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

More to the point Keith said the scar on the planet's surface is their shame.

Yeah they pretty much fucked up. Now they are targeting Protoculture ruin planets. Whether they are colonized by Humans and Zentradi or homeworlds of other Children of the Protoculture.

For a race with a superiority complex they do have an inferiority complex.

Keith's answer is kill them all as they need planets for their people to move to.

In episode 6, its pretty much blatantly stated that NUN felt this conflict is akin to unfriendly neighbors having a go, and its nothing that cannot be resolved by local authorities.

The NUN is far from the evil-empire that some people think they are. If the NUNs really wanted to be total dicks? They'd drop a legion of Zentradi on Wind and just let em go... All that superiority complex would have died at that moment.

Yeah, do the Var then, I dare ya.

- Tak

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Hayate and Freya would make fine cute couple, but I find that significantly less important than life's goal, aspirations and values. Hayate didn't have anything like that so he tagged along with Freya who had, it's thanks to her find his calling, but this is moment when their path diverge. Freya will walk her own path Hayate and Mirage go other. Even though nothing is decided yet, this is pretty massive handicap.

If Freyja was a conventional idol, like in Love Live or iMAS, I'd see your point.

But Walkure are really Battle Idols. They really are out there fighting in their own way.

A good analogy might be to imagine Delta squadron (including Walkure) as a party in a MMORPG game, like WoW. Hayate and Mirage are both front-line fighters, sharing the same class or very similar classes. Freyja is like a support mage of some sort. Freyja isn't out there shooting down the enemy, but she's nonetheless opposing the enemy by actively supporting front-line fighters like Hayate and Mirage. There's a reason why Bogue considers Freyja a traitor, after all.

So Delta squadron is all in this together, they're all part of a team. Hayate and Mirage are a bit closer professionally, I guess you could say, because they have the same role - hence shared duty, like I wrote. But it's not like Freyja is just off performing concerts in a completely separate place. When Delta squadron pilots go into battle, so do Walkure.

So there's going to be plenty of opportunities for Hayate and Freyja to continue helping one another and to continue paralleling one another in their growths. There may be a line between them, but they will continue to be walking side-by-side for as long as he's a fighter-pilot and she's part of Walkure.

[Tenzen12]

Hayate killed person and he will continue killing from now, because it has to be done. Freya will help people and give them hope. Even if they are on same place, their role can't be more different. Don't get me wrong of course they will hang with each other and have fun, but they both will move grow in different direction.

Originally Posted by Tak

In episode 6, its pretty much blatantly stated that NUN felt this conflict is akin to unfriendly neighbors having a go, and its nothing that cannot be resolved by local authorities.

The NUN is far from the evil-empire that some people think they are. If the NUNs really wanted to be total dicks? They'd drop a legion of Zentradi on Wind and just let em go... All that superiority complex would have died at that moment.

Yeah, do the Var then, I dare ya.

- Tak

It's not like NUN knows about Heinz health condition... or about Heinz in first place. Though no one take it seriously, considering method of mind control is unknown and maybe unlimited. Providing enemy with more fodder doesn't sound like great idea...

[magnuskn]

Eeeh, as long as they can indefinitely control the Zentradi via VAR, that would only add a army of well-armed giants to the Windermerans force. OTOH, if Heinz does not have the juice to keep up the fine control, it would mean an army of rampaging well-armed giants on their homeworld, so Tak might just be right. ^^

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It's not like NUN knows about Heinz health condition... or about Heinz in first place. Though no one take it seriously, considering method of mind control is unknown and maybe unlimited. Providing enemy with more fodder doesn't sound like great idea...

Not 7 years ago they didn't, and its only recently the Wind managed to coordinate the Var effects (with limited effects under great stress). If the NUNs really intended on denting the pride of Wind back in the day? Yeah, they'd drop Zentradis. Even if Var existed then? Well, once on surface, Var would do you no good.

- Tak