2009-09-30, 14:33 | Link #2221 | ||
I disagree with you all.
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I mean, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus' first disciple. The man on whom Jesus said he'd build his Church. Protestant churches, OTOH, were founded hundred of years later by people who'd never met Jesus. |
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2009-09-30, 14:56 | Link #2222 | |
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We have free will but IMO God's perception knows the decisions we are going to make before it happens like he knows that people are going to reject God in the end days, it is not forcing them to do that, they still have the free will to do believe they just dont and he knows they are not going to. For example say I know your fully straight and I ask you would you go out with a boy I know the answer is no, however it is not impacting your decision at all. I know but it is still your choice. @Anh_Minh As for God's creation of Satan I have no idea why he did it but I will answer your question in the afterlife
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2009-09-30, 15:06 | Link #2223 | |
Shameless Fangirl
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Sure, we can choose to go against our first instinct, but there has to be a reason for that choice. If there's no reason, it would mean it was a random choice, and just like we can't control all circumstances that might have led to a decision we make, we can't be in control over something that is random. A dog can choose to protect a pack member rather than its own life. Is its choice less meaningful? I don't think so. It might not be a rational choice, but I don't believe it's less "free" than one, and there are also humans who are incapable of making rational choices. That Christianity claims we have a free will, when it's clear that we are always influenced by something, and that some of us are born into an environment that very easily allows them to become religious, while others are taught from birth to reject the very idea of faith, is a huge problem for me, not just because I think it would horribly unfair from a God to judge someone harshly under these circumstances . Another problem I have is this "soul" thingy, and the fact that religion usually tells us humans are "special" when without that, there are no convincing morally relevant differences between us and other animals (or at least, other animals possessing a central nervous system).
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2009-09-30, 15:11 | Link #2224 | |
I disagree with you all.
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2009-09-30, 15:20 | Link #2225 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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If religion was automatically better for society, wouldn't countries in which it is seen as especially important generally respect human rights more instead of less?
Not only would medieval times have been much less bloody than modern society, people also wouldn't have valid reasons to talk about bringing human rights to highly religious countries today. The truth is, it's human nature to do "evil" things. Whether they believe in God, or humanity, or something else... it will always be up to us to make sure we can be considered "moral", and the threat of divine punishment won't do more to ensure that than a firm belief in the value of other lives. In fact, I prefer the latter, since I find the thought that someone should refrain from stabbing me on the streets just because they are afraid of some Higher Power to be rather scary. What if they stop believing one day, or twist the things they've been taught around to suit their interests?
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2009-09-30 at 15:33. |
2009-09-30, 15:22 | Link #2226 | |
It's the year 3030...
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@ Cub-sama: But here again, it's pointless for you to ask that question. If you already know the answer, then what's the point in even asking? I suppose when it comes to questions of extreme pertinence or importance, you may ask a question out of respect for someone else, even if you already know the answer. But for very trivial things, like will a straight person date a homosexual person, if you already know the answer then there is no point asking the question. So it goes with God; if he already knows the answers (and for God, each question is as important as the next, since God is omniscient), he's got no point to even ask the questions.
@Nogitsune: Well stated. I suppose I was talking less about minor influences that drive our decisions, and the idea of God making decisions for us. In the case of the latter, I don't see that as an influence, as much as a command. As I said above, if God knows the decisions we're going to make, then him even asking the questions is pointless. He's basically telling us what to think and do, so nothing has been gained by placing us at the juxtaposition. Quote:
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2009-09-30, 15:25 | Link #2227 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
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Either we have religion, or we have atheism. If religion has the more positive effect on society, then atheism must produce a negative one, since it prevents religion's good effects from taking root. I understand what Cipher is trying to convey, but if there are two things that exclude each other, and one is better, than, as I see it, the other one must be a negative one in comparison.
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2009-09-30, 15:33 | Link #2228 | |
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2009-09-30, 15:37 | Link #2229 | |
It's the year 3030...
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And it can't be one or the other; even our current society proves that. Atheism and religion both abound. The idea is that one has a greater positive effect than the other; in this case, religion. Again, I don't agree with any of this at all. I'm simply trying to use simple mathematics to better illustrate his point. Or, at least, his point as how I interpreted it. Edit: And now it is time for work. I shall return later, far more exhausted, with even less sensical statements to spout off as truths.
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2009-09-30, 15:37 | Link #2230 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
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He does? When I think about the Bible, I mostly have to think about thinks like those above, so I'd like to hear more about that. Edit: Quote:
If one is more positive, than the other has to be negative, because clearly, it doesn't do anything for us except from keeping us from employing the better option.
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2009-09-30, 15:47 | Link #2231 |
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He gave them lives and he can take them away if he wants, he is God. He is not bound by the limits we have and even the limits we try to use to judge him was given to him by us for us to use for each other.
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2009-09-30, 16:28 | Link #2233 | |
I disagree with you all.
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2009-09-30, 17:00 | Link #2236 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
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Age: 32
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Define your version of atheism.
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2009-09-30, 17:04 | Link #2237 | ||||||||
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What that shows is a confrontation between God's will and man's will. Unlike with the Pharaoh, God did not exert direct control over Jonah's will. And unlike with Abraham, Jonah used his free will to oppose God initially. God basically shows Jonah who's the boss here. But he does that by letting Jonah submit of his own will. Quote:
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As for the "soul" thingy, you are saying that without it there are no differences between us and animals. Then maybe those people who think we are "special" do so because they believe we have a soul. Quote:
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Last edited by monster; 2009-09-30 at 18:12. |
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2009-09-30, 19:25 | Link #2238 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
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We can reject one influence and embrace another, but there has to be a reason for this, and this reason would automatically be another influence - one we might not even be aware of. If you can call that a free will, then why not say a cat or a wolf also has one? The only thing they lack is the ability to make a rational decision, but if that's what free will is about, then small children and some other people don't possess one, either. Quote:
Who says animals don't have a soul? The Bible? People who like performing vivisection? Whenever you can't justify a moral belief through something that is actually tangible, it can't be a good thing. Why are homosexuals bad? Because God says so. Why are women supposed to behave in a certain way? Because the Bible says so. Why are we superior to other species? Why, because there's something called a soul, and they don't have it! How can we know we have one and they don't? Well, that's common sense, really! ...I don't like it.
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2009-09-30, 21:48 | Link #2239 | ||||
It's the year 3030...
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All of this being what it is, the reality is that we will never know how each of these choices, or any of the available belief structures for that matter, effects humanity in relation to the other. We can see examples of it here and there, but to discern a definite understanding based on the very little knowledge we have is a fool's errand. Hell, I could make the argument that religion is the worse of the two choices (religion v. secularism), as it carries the burden of a past, far more detrimental to humanity than secularism, but what does that statement really prove? Nothing, because all of it is open to interpretation, and you cannot fault a belief structure for the way in which people choose to interpret it. Quote:
Bender: Do you know what I'm going to do before I do it? God: Yes Bender: Well, what if I do something different? God: Then I don't know that. Is that how it is? If God knows the path I am going to choose before I choose it, am I still allowed to pick the other path? If the answer to that question is no, then I still really didn't get to make a choice. Even though God didn't directly intervene, and say "You're going that way and that's final," I was forced me to choose in accordance with his will. That is not a choice; it is a command. Quote:
By definition: Free - Not subject to the control or domination of another; not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being; choosing or capable of choosing for itself. You're asserting that, just because God is there directing us, and knows exactly what we're going to do at every single moment in time, does not mean that we don't have free will. Except that's exactly what it means. If we cannot act outside of the will of God, then we do not have free will. Even if he gives us the right to choose for ourselves, it is not free will if, in the end, we must succumb to the will of God. What if Abraham had said, "But I want to kill my son!"? What if Jonah had said "Psh, I'm stayin' on this boat!"? What if the Pharaoh had said "Get the hell out of here, Israelites! I'm not dealing with this plague crap!"? They couldn't, because they were being forced to succumb to the will of God. Abraham stopped because God told him to. Jonah went overboard because he knew God was mad at him. The Pharaoh kept fighting the plagues because God wanted to prove to the Israelites that he was God. If you can't choose something outside of the will of God, then you do not have free will. You simply have the ability to make a decision, and then wait for God to tell you if it's right or not.
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Last edited by Quzor; 2009-09-30 at 22:10. |
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2009-09-30, 22:58 | Link #2240 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-30 at 23:14. |
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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