(L+CR) Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Comedy wa Machigatteiru. Zoku (Oregairu Season 2)

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by p-kun

When Hayama perfectly deflects the tension about Yukino giving him chocolate, I can see why Haruno finds him boring.

So, Haruno's criticism of the 3 stems from the fact that the "genuine" trio are pretty much the same as the "old and fake" trio. The only thing that changes is that Yukino replaces her cold persona with a friendly persona. According to Haruno, her friendly persona no less fake than her cold persona. Supposedly, 8man also realizes how fake their new relationships are, but he was in denial before Haruno spells it out. I personally think that getting more real will take more time. I wonder why Haruno is angry about. Maybe with Yukino supposedly mistook her dependency to 8man with love, Haruno realizes that she needs to cut their crap soon before Yukino does something cruel to 8man (like pitting him against her family)?

I wonder why he asks Yui if she is free. Is he going to clarify his feelings (that is he's trying to outright reject her)?

Haruno was criticizing the Service Club for settling and being so passive.

What she's hinting at with Yukino is that she has this talent of acting in a way that emotionally manipulates others to do what she wants, without actually doing anything herself. She compared Yukino to their mother before, and you can see how she is.

Everything the mother said was worded in a way to guilt trip Yukino (e.g. "I let you live on your own, and you're out this late?"), but without any direct malice behind it, making it difficult to go against her without being the bad guy. Whether it's intentional or not, this is similar to the signs Yukino sent toward Hachiman during the infirmary scene, and when she dropped the bowl.

That is what Haruno meant by that something that "isn't trust, but something more sinister". Yukino may or may not be romantically interested in Hachiman at all, but through her mannerisms, she is getting Hachiman to be on her side regardless.


Hachiman and Yui aren't free of guilt either, since Hachiman is clearly dodging the issue with Yui. He very well knows Yui wants to give him honmei choco, yet he avoids answering her by saying he's expecting chocolate from Komachi instead.
Likewise, Yui is at fault for going along with the whole sham of an event, pretending she is just having fun making chocolate with others instead of making it clear that she wants to express her feelings to Hachiman.


The way Service Club is dodging their issues is what Haruno finds "boring", much like how she called Hayama boring in an earlier arc.

[darkage]

I don't think that's it though , i think it's because the trio isn't advancing with their emotion , they're just acting as if nothing has change , as if their emotion for each other are just simply friends no more no less

[SuitUp]

Haruno is not "wrong", she's just an asshole...

[The 48th Ronin]

Originally Posted by SuitUp

Haruno is not "wrong", she's just an asshole...

An asshole w/ a purpose, to be exact. Pretty much like Hachiman.

[Excorsism]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

What she's hinting at with Yukino is that she has this talent of acting in a way that emotionally manipulates others to do what she wants, without actually doing anything herself. She compared Yukino to their mother before, and you can see how she is.

Interesting correlation, though I'm still a firm believer in what Hiratsuka-sensei said about Yukino a while back, how she's honest and correct, the first volume/episode rather. I believe in the lighthouse.

[frivolity]

There's also a parallel between the Service Club trio and the Miura-Hayato-Iroha triangle. Hayato is content to remain ambivalent about Miura and Iroha because he's playing them both against each other, thus allowing him to blend into the background without giving an outright response to either of them. While he did reject Iroha a couple of episodes back, my guess is that it was probably a "soft" rejection that still involved a dangling line of hope for her. Hayato's approach works because there's still a certain distance between him and the two girls, so he has no need or desire to address the issue at all.

Hachiman, on the other hand, has been getting closer to both Yukino and Yui. They are very close to running into this wall, and at some point will not be able to get any closer without addressing it head on.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Haruno was criticizing the Service Club for settling and being so passive.

What she's hinting at with Yukino is that she has this talent of acting in a way that emotionally manipulates others to do what she wants, without actually doing anything herself. She compared Yukino to their mother before, and you can see how she is.

Everything the mother said was worded in a way to guilt trip Yukino (e.g. "I let you live on your own, and you're out this late?"), but without any direct malice behind it, making it difficult to go against her without being the bad guy. Whether it's intentional or not, this is similar to the signs Yukino sent toward Hachiman during the infirmary scene, and when she dropped the bowl.

That is what Haruno meant by that something that "isn't trust, but something more sinister". Yukino may or may not be romantically interested in Hachiman at all, but through her mannerisms, she is getting Hachiman to be on her side regardless.


Hachiman and Yui aren't free of guilt either, since Hachiman is clearly dodging the issue with Yui. He very well knows Yui wants to give him honmei choco, yet he avoids answering her by saying he's expecting chocolate from Komachi instead.
Likewise, Yui is at fault for going along with the whole sham of an event, pretending she is just having fun making chocolate with others instead of making it clear that she wants to express her feelings to Hachiman.


The way Service Club is dodging their issues is what Haruno finds "boring", much like how she called Hayama boring in an earlier arc.

Could you elaborate a little on Yukino's manipulations during the infirmary scene and the bowl-dropping scene? Specifically, what is her purpose during those scenes with regard to getting Hachiman on her side?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by frivolity

Could you elaborate a little on Yukino's manipulations during the infirmary scene and the bowl-dropping scene? Specifically, what is her purpose during those scenes with regard to getting Hachiman on her side?

There's a difference between actively delegating a task to someone and passively taking someone for granted and expecting them to help her out anyway.

I'm not saying she's toying with Hachiman on purpose (in fact, far from it), but those scenes are intentionally designed to have romantic signals. The fact that Yukino has not expressed any desire to be in a relationship with him like Yui does, but blushes and sends all those body signals toward Hachiman is what Haruno means by what "isn't trust, but something more sinister".


Again, just look at Yukino's mother. The way she spoke and said things like "I let you live on your own because I expected better than this" had no direct malice, but it was loaded enough to guilt trip Yukino and prevent any opposition. The same goes for how she said "your parents must be worried too" to Yui, which prevented Yui from speaking out on Yukino's behalf. There is no malice behind it, and I'm sure Yukino's mother meant what she said, but she worded things in a way that was unfair.

Or, a simpler example would be to think of Saika. It's not like he's trying to be a trap or act girly (and attract Hachiman in the process ), but the way he acts makes him come off as girly regardless.
In Yukino's case, she obviously knows Hachiman isn't a knight in a shining armor, the way she acts clearly gives off the vibe that she wants to him to save her from her mother's grip.


The way she settled into the role of a damsel in distress is also why Haruno said the old Yukino (who was chasing after her sister's shadow) was better. At least back then, she was making an active effort to change herself.

[Boukenxha]

Idk man... I honestly don't give a damn to what agenda Haruno is trying to achieve, I just hate the way she is meddling. If I'm to take a side, I'll be on Shizuka-sensei's side. There are definitely ways to go about it without being a bitch.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Excorsism

Interesting correlation, though I'm still a firm believer in what Hiratsuka-sensei said about Yukino a while back, how she's honest and correct, the first volume/episode rather. I believe in the lighthouse.

She is correct, because she does want to break away from her mother's influence.

Remember how she mentions she wanted Hachiman to save/help her during the Destinyland ride. It's strongly implied now that she was talking about breaking free from her mother.

But remember that is also different from what she said after the ride, where she said there is something both Haruno and Hachiman had that she didn't, and if she had something of her own, then maybe she could do the saving. That is entirely correct.

What Yukino is talking about, but doesn't truly understand herself is that both Hachiman and Haruno are people with strong convictions who take active roles in their lives (at least, from what we see). Haruno goes out of her way to stir trouble, while most of what the Service Club has done for others has been under Hachiman's lead.

Meanwhile Yukino has been mostly passive, and right now, has been settling into this role of being a damsel in distress. When Haruno mentions that the Yukino of old was better, she was saying that at least back then, Yukino was making an active effort to change herself.

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by Boukenxha

Idk man... I honestly don't give a damn to what agenda Haruno is trying to achieve, I just hate the way she is meddling. If I'm to take a side, I'll be on Shizuka-sensei's side. There are definitely ways to go about it without being a bitch.

I can't agree more.. I think Shizuka-sensei's approach is very good
unfortunately, seems like only Haruno noticed the true form of Volunteer Club currently *Hayama probably knows something but not much*

[Excorsism]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

snip

I'm honestly not sure I understand the assumptions you're making with Yukino. The emotional manipulation thing seems to be reaching because you can apply that to any character in the series, really.

While I can see where you're coming from, I'd rather not put faith in what Haruno says every time. She may be right in some areas, but that doesn't mean everything she says she should be taken at face value. I'll be pretty disappointed in Watari if it turns out our omniscient third party observers are always right while our trio is always wrong.

I can see her being passive in regards to herself, but I feel she is still somewhat active at least when it comes to Hachiman's request for genuine though we don't know what's going on in that front.

[frodonk]

If this was any other generic romcom harem series out there, I would've just rolled my eyes and groan about how one of the female leads gets flustered while the guy is there and they have awkward moments when reaching for the same thing (bowl), but considering how unlikely such a thing was to be inserted purely as fanservice in this series, I cannot help but laugh out loud literally when that scene was shown, it was so out of place.

Makes me think that when Haruno told the trio that they're becoming boring, it's almost as if it's telling the show not to go with the same tropes as with almost every generic harem series out there

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Excorsism

I can see her being passive in regards to herself

That's what I mean, and what Haruno is trying to get her to overcome. Yukino can't keep quiet everytime their mother talks to her. She acted completely helpless the first time we saw their mother, and the second time she barely managed to dodge the bullet by telling her "I'll explain later".

That's not going to cut it. Again, Yukino isn't kind of person to manipulate anyone on purpose, and she does need help, but ultimately she still needs to stand firm on her own if she wants to stay together with Yui and Hachiman.

[Salva]

I wish Yukino just talked things over, honestly and sincerely with Hachiman. Yui doesn't seen to be able to handle such situations well. But if Yukino honestly told Hachiman that she has troubles with family, he could then somehow support her. Gods, my European outlook keeps getting in the way. I never had troubles admitting some problems to really cloe friends, I counted on them, I talked things over. I wish Yukino just talked with Hachiman about things, openly. It won't happen, those are Japanese and so far we have seen they prefer to speak riddles instead of solving problems. It's so aggravating.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Edit: Saw what you mean: Didn't Hikigaya tell her in an earlier episode himself?

I'm trying to see. Hikigaya says he wants 'genuine' at the end of episode 8. Episode 9 was almost entirely destinyland, so no Haruno there. Part A of eps 10 is the conclusion of the joint-high school activity, which Haruno had no part in. Part B of eps 10 is the all-out brawl in the café, so it couldn't have been there. Eps 11 had Haruno and Hachiman talk about Hayama, so definitely not in the previous episode.

Therefore, Haruno had to hear 'genuine' from someone else. There were three people in the classroom, and Iroha admitted she overheard Hachiman. Hence, there should have been only 4 people who knows 'genuine': Hachiman, Yui, Yukino, and Iroha. Considering Hachiman wasn't shown to tell Haruno, and Yui has next to no connection to her, we can rule them out. (though what a twist it will be if Yui was the true mastermind behind the scenes wouldn't it? )

So which one is more likely? Yukino having a heated conversation with Haruno and telling her, or Haruno asking Iroha for something 'interesting' and Iroha willingly gives it up? Considering Haruno doesn't even know what course Yukino is taking, I'd say it was Iroha who spilled the beans. It was her after all who invited Haruno twice to student council events (one last episode and here in valentines), so it isn't a huge stretch that Iroha talks about a lot of stuff to Haruno.

Originally Posted by frodonk

If this was any other generic romcom harem series out there, I would've just rolled my eyes and groan about how one of the female leads gets flustered while the guy is there and they have awkward moments when reaching for the same thing (bowl), but considering how unlikely such a thing was to be inserted purely as fanservice in this series, I cannot help but laugh out loud literally when that scene was shown, it was so out of place.

It personally serves to only irk me. If this was any other harem romcom, I'll tolerate it because it comes with the genre. But here? Only serves as a reminder to me what other direction they could have done with Yukino.

[Windows X]

Haruno made Iroha spilled it out.

[Anh_Minh]

Hayama is a creepy stalker and bugged the Service Club. He then reported to Haruno, because she's also a creepy stalker.

[Bonta Kun]

Ahh what to do here.
I'm a long time sailor of the HikkiXYukino ship and I like life on board but I spy HikkiXIroha off the starboard side and it's firing it's 16inch guns at us and we're taking on water!
Don't know if I want to save her with my trusty bucket or jump ship?!

The way that line "sis-con?" was delivered was great.

Now it may just be the cold I have atm but I'm not quite getting what Haruno is getting at and why it's bothering the trio so much.
When I was back at school, shit like adults talking nonsense like that never bothered me.
Guess I better sleep on it.

[Mangonel]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There's a difference between actively delegating a task to someone and passively taking someone for granted and expecting them to help her out anyway.

I'm not saying she's toying with Hachiman on purpose (in fact, far from it), but those scenes are intentionally designed to have romantic signals. The fact that Yukino has not expressed any desire to be in a relationship with him like Yui does, but blushes and sends all those body signals toward Hachiman is what Haruno means by what "isn't trust, but something more sinister".


Again, just look at Yukino's mother. The way she spoke and said things like "I let you live on your own because I expected better than this" had no direct malice, but it was loaded enough to guilt trip Yukino and prevent any opposition. The same goes for how she said "your parents must be worried too" to Yui, which prevented Yui from speaking out on Yukino's behalf. There is no malice behind it, and I'm sure Yukino's mother meant what she said, but she worded things in a way that was unfair.

Or, a simpler example would be to think of Saika. It's not like he's trying to be a trap or act girly (and attract Hachiman in the process ), but the way he acts makes him come off as girly regardless.
In Yukino's case, she obviously knows Hachiman isn't a knight in a shining armor, the way she acts clearly gives off the vibe that she wants to him to save her from her mother's grip.


The way she settled into the role of a damsel in distress is also why Haruno said the old Yukino (who was chasing after her sister's shadow) was better. At least back then, she was making an active effort to change herself.

Dunno if the translation was bad, but its hard for me to imagine Yukino being sinister. Shy and conflict-averse would be how I'd describe her. Which confuses me, because culturally isn't the 'ideal' Japanese woman supposed to be demure to a fault? Why would Haruno be wanting to 'fix' her then, just because thats not interesting to her? Yukino's mother is obviously hard to deal with I don't see what the big issue is with wanting some help with dealing with her. Perhaps an issue is that Yukino won't simply say as much?

I share Salva's irritation with Yukino's lack of talking. It seems very weird to me she can be very academic, harsh even, in her language dealing with other peoples problems but she can't even come close to verbalizing her own issues even among what I assume are her two closest friends.

Generally speaking though its unlikely Yukino doesn't have some feelings for Hikki, at least not without assuming shes really a manipulative bitch (IE intentionally leading him on in order to use him to help her with her mother).

Haruno also seems contradictory to me, if Haruno wants Yukino to become independent why does she appear to approve of Hikki as a friend/lover when hes currently the one Yukino is most dependent on?

Man, this series keeps me so confused.

[DragoonKain3]

The way I see things, Haruno is just the 'mid-boss'. Hayama said that Haruno kills those people she likes with too much attention, while she tramples to dust those she doesn't. If Haruno really wanted to, she could have completely crushed the trio's friendship in the very beginning.

But she didn't do that. It seems Haruno is the cause of all the trouble, but it's not like it's all consecutive. Case in point, Haruno definitely caused trouble around New Years where she baited out Yukino with Hachiman in the phone. But nothing until Valentines day. To us it seems she's just there to shake things up all day, every day, but it only feels that way because of the episodic nature of the medium. In actuality, a month has passed with no trouble from her.

All that trouble Haruno has caused, but for what? To see if the trio's friendship can actually go against Yukimom. If the three can't even handle Haruno, what about their mom who is worse than the two daughters combined?

Now the bigger question is whether or not she gave up this episode. It's pretty obvious that Haruno does not like Yukino's regression to her past self (which I share the same sentiments), and she sees the trio's friendship to not have advanced much at all. It's been like, what, over half a year already since they met? Maybe her patience is running thin, or maybe she doesn't want Yukino to go past the point of no return, so maybe now she brings the mom now to crush the friendship that she thinks is hurting Yukino?


Thing is, I find it sad that it seems that Haruno herself doesn't have any friends. Like, she's an alumni who just recently graduated, so surely there must be someone she knows who wants to come back with her to their old school. It's also shown that she was eating alone in the café before she coincidentally met Hachiman, and we never see her hang out with anyone at all.

So maybe in the end, Haruno is also trying to find something genuine? Maybe she had bad experiences back in her high school days, where everyone has been driven off by her family. So the way she's meddling in Yukino's life is her way of saying... "Get tough personally, or find people who can stand beside you till the very end."

Originally Posted by Bonta Kun

Ahh what to do here.
I'm a long time sailor of the HikkiXYukino ship and I like life on board but I spy HikkiXIroha off the starboard side and it's firing it's 16inch guns at us and we're taking on water!
Don't know if I want to save her with my trusty bucket or jump ship?!

From my point of view, SS "Save Me Someday" pretty much Tomahawked every other ship before they even got close to use their main guns. Even this episode, Hachiman with his eyebrow twitch upon hearing Yukino giving choco to Hayama pretty much has every other ship in major damage control mode.

So if you REALLY like HikkiXYukino, don't abandon it. I chose to abandon it for other reasons, despite knowing full well it will be the one with the highest probability of sailing to the sunset.

Now it may just be the cold I have atm but I'm not quite getting what Haruno is getting at and why it's bothering the trio so much.
When I was back at school, shit like adults talking nonsense like that never bothered me.

Quite true. Like personally, at that age, all I cared was about having fun with my friends.