Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Cherry_Lover]

Yes.

In fact, it's explicitly stated (in HF) that the Nasuverse (in which FSN is set) is a multiverse, because the second magic (that Rin uses at the end of HF to fight Sakura) is the ability to make connections with and travel to parallel dimensions. Since it's a multiverse, a stable time loop doesn't make sense.

[Keroko]

It also makes any debate about which ending is the 'true ending' a moot point. Convenient.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yes, it is rather convinient, isn't it....

Especially since a good(ish) ending for Saber is mutally exclusive with Sakura not being totally screwed, so defining any one ending as canon would be certain to annoy someone.

[Keroko]

Dunno, Zouken is pretty much suggested to die during UBW, right? And what with Saber surviving in one of the endings and even Shinji making a moodswap, that'd probably the best possible ending.

Well, except for Iliya fans, that is.

[Cherry_Lover]

He's not dead. His soul is inside Sakura, and all Gil did was step on a few worms. He survives a lot worse in HF without dying.

Plus, even if he is dead, and Shinji is being nicer to her, Shirou is still going to vanish to London with her elder sister (who doesn't even acknowledge her) and leave her alone, living in a house where she's been abused horrifically for eleven years and with her only company being a boy who treated her like a slave for four of them (and ignored her prior to that). Sakura needs someone to help her get over what Zouken did to her (anyone would), and with Shirou leaving to London and unaware of her plight (and ditto Rin), she has no-one to talk to and no-one to help her.

Oh, and Rider is dead, of course.

The two happiest endings in the game are, without a doubt, UBW Good and HF True. HF True is better IMO, because Zouken is definitely dead and Rin and Sakura have been reunited and are happy together. Yes, Saber is dead, but Rider is alive, and she deserves life just as much as Saber does. But, it does come down to a matter of opinion, as well as whether Zouken is still alive (if he is, then he's likely to kill many innocents in the future, and Sakura is still under his control). Zouken is perfectly capable of killing a lot of people, as HF shows (he's stated to have killed thousands, I believe), so the fact that he's dead in HF almost makes up for the dead innocents, since he can't kill anyone else.

[Keroko]

Actually, there is a valid argument as to Zouken's death in the other routes: His complete inaction. The main reason Zouken doesn't do anything, much less appears in the other routes is because he's dead.

Explains the gaping plothole as well.

[Cherry_Lover]

What? How the hell would he die in the other two routes? There's nothing that happens differently in HF that would cause him to survive there and not in the other two routes. Plus, he's mentioned in UBW (he rings Shirou's house to tell Sakura to come home) and the worms are seen (still living) in UBW.

The reason Zouken doesn't act in the other two routes is explained in HF. He only gets himself involved directly if he thinks this war is his best chance of winning, since getting involved as a master has a good chance of getting him killed. In Fate and UBW, he couldn't activate Sakura or persuade her to fight, and so he decides to wait for the next war (that he believes will happen in 60 years) and just lets Shinji get on with it. But in HF he's able to activate Sakura (and generate the shadow), and thus he decides to get himself involved too, since he needs to be there in order to control the shadow, and Dark Sakura when she comes out.

If Zouken were dead prior to the start of the war, then Sakura would have no reason to avoid fighting, really, since she could just go around Shirou's house and camp there for the duration, working with him. Or, more likely, if he was dead, then she just wouldn't bother to summon Rider at all.

[Keroko]

Then what exactly was the reason he was able to activate Sakura that wasn't available in the other two routes? Why didn't he do so then?

[kaizer63]

Because in the other two routes he didn't expressly know about Shirou, or that he was a Master. He knew he existed, but he didn't understand how Sakura felt about him because she made sure to hide that. On the other hand, in Heaven's Feel Shirou walks right up to the door of the mansion with Sakura. This Zouken sees. He's now aware that Sakura has feelings for Shirou and that Shirou might feel something for Sakura. By walking her home he was essentially revealing the only weakness in Sakura's mental armor.

In short, by walking her home Shirou reveals to Zouken Sakura's weakness and he uses that knowledge into manipulating her to fight (to protect Shirou). This does not happen in the other routes.

[Keroko]

You're telling me that Zouken was completely unaware of Shirou? Even though Sakura knows him, Shinji rants about him, and he has been close to her house many times in the other routes as well? I still see no indication that Zouken couldn't have acted in the other two routes. Think about it, in Fate Shirou was inside that very house.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, and he never went anywhere near Sakura. That hardly tells Zouken much....

Zouken knew that Sakura liked Shirou, I think, but he didn't know the extent that Sakura would go to to protect him. She was still using the excuse that she was watching over him to see if he was going to be a master. Whether or not he truly bought that, he didn't know the depth of their relationship. Plus, Sakura found out that he was a master later in the first two routes than in HF. All of those things combined allowed Zouken to realise why Sakura didn't want to fight, and to use her fears about Rin killing Shirou to activate her.

The problem with your argument is that there is no reason why Zouken would be dead in Fate and UBW, but not in HF. Especially since he's confirmed to be alive on day 5 or so of UBW, since he rings Taiga and tells her he wants Sakura to come home. Unless you can come up with a reason why he would be alive in HF and not in Fate or UBW, your argument falls down, because the only things that change between Fate, UBW and HF are your actions (and the consequences of them). Shirou going to the Matou house doesn't suddenly stop Zouken from dying.

[orangejuicetang]

Fate Shirou is closest to Archer Shirou. The key word here is closest. Archer doesn't come from any of the routes. The Ilya route thing is just a theory because in Archer's profile there was something about how his greatest regret was being unable to save Ilya a year after the HF5. Also, it doesn't say how Ilya died, but the common assumption is Ilya's lifespan would only last that long because she's a homunculus designed solely for HF. And also, IIRC, if there was an Ilya's route, it would have branched off at the decision choice where you chooise "I want to be Sakura's hero", because there would have been an extra "I want to be Ilya's hero" if it wasn't cut.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well the only thing that really marks Archer as being "closest to the Fate route" is that we know Ilya lived past the end of the war. Plus, of course, both UBW and HF Shirou have experiences that Archer can't really have had.

The "Ilya route" thing is pure speculation. IMO, it probably wouldn't lead to Archer, because that would mean the end looked good, and then becamed depressing later on. Maybe the Normal end would, though.

[willyvereb]

There's a pretty easy explanation why Rin didn't summon EMIYA in Archer's timeline.
She probably had an actual catalyst to use in summons and she called a different Archer.
Simple.
Regarding the Illya route Cherry Lover is right. Indeed, the Illya-route probably wouldn't have any mentions of how EMIYA became Archer. Illya route was supposed to be like HF in many aspects but the creators needed to cut it short and integrated many parts from it into the Sakura route(a supposedly short route and without Dark Sakura).

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

There's a pretty easy explanation why Rin didn't summon EMIYA in Archer's timeline.
She probably had an actual catalyst to use in summons and she called a different Archer.

Perhaps, but it does beg the question of how. She doesn't have the knowledge or connections to obtain a catalyst for herself (she's simply too young), and there's no reason why her father would have left her one, because he never had a spare one. Plus, he never even expected her to be fighting, at least not until she was substantially older.

Illya route was supposed to be like HF in many aspects but the creators needed to cut it short and integrated many parts from it into the Sakura route(a supposedly short route and without Dark Sakura).

Well, I do kind of wonder what the 'alternate' Sakura route would have been. Presumably, Zouken's abuse would have still been there, but the "implanting the corrupted grail into her" bit wouldn't have been. Most likely, the 'Dark Sakura' plot would have been shifted onto Ilya, producing a 'Dark Ilya' (not that she needs much help in being evil, really...), much like what happened to Iri in Zero.

[willyvereb]

It's rather easy to write a plot for Rin to get a catalyst. For example she gets one unexpectedly from one of Tokiomi's old friends at the Association(Like a leftover catalyst which Tokiomi scrapped for Gil's etc...)

Also the 4th Grail war doesn't need to be happened exactly like in Fate/Zero in Emiya's world.
We only need a slight difference somewhere someplace in the time and we get a Rin with the catalyst. You can call it deus-ex machina, but I call this simply alternate reality.

[Seitsuki]

iriya route?

iriya ♥

[Aqua Knight]

Did anyone know that Archer's VA is the same that voiced Grimmjow in Bleach, Greed in Fullmetal Alchemist??
This VA is surely great.

[Solafighter]

Some days ago, i finished the first two routes of the Fate Stay Night game.

The first time, i ever played that game, i was not realy motivated to go for the heavens feel route. The last two days, i started it cause this time, my desire for moar! was bigger. And... If i would have known, how "exciting" this route is, i would have played only this one.

Cant wait to continue.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, it took me a few days to get the motivation to play HF after finishing UBW. But, as you might be able to tell from my username, I felt that it was definitely worth it.