The Time Gap of Anime

[Notshane]

Has anyone else noticed how much and quickly that anime has changed over the years?

I am talking, not just animation detail here or the slow decline of cheesy humor as the thousands approached, but rather the overall structure of the common anime.

I have watched so many anime the past few years, much more than I ever did when I was younger. And after watching ones from the nineties, thousands and twenty-ten onward, I realize that anime went from changing for the better to declining in quality.

For instance, when anime reached the peak of its popularity, this was when it still had cheesy humor and stories did not yet feel so deep. But, they still retained a lot of charm and basically there were a small handful of anime that had some "what if" moments in them where the story felt like it could have been deeper, more detailed or that some tedious comedy scenes could have been replaced with more story. Of course, that's not to say there weren't any good anime at all in the nineties, but most of them just felt a bit generic to me.

When the thousands approached, all anime saw such an abrupt increase in their quality that was shockingly quicker than anyone probably anticipated. Cheesy humor was still there, but was much less prominent than it was before. The music also began to fit a lot better in scenes as, well, they decided to actually PUT music in most scenes. In some nineties anime I watch, it feels like they are too silent on the BGM department. Or they do that thing where you hear an intro to a scene and you feel like it will continue to play, but then it stops after the characters begin talking. But, the most noticeable change in the thousands anime was the story, delivery of humor and the animation quality. I mean you would expect digital ink to have a much cleaner look than hand-drawn which is true, but when anime got the treatment it felt like it went at least five years ahead of where it was. One in particular felt like an anime that was close to twenty-ten in terms of animation quality and this was something made around the time of very FIRST thousands anime. Not only the animation, but the story, humor and everything just felt like decades beyond what it just exited from where it is like they acquired all the recent technology to increase the quality all at the same time and hired just the right amount of writers.

And then twenty-ten felt like such a shock. I mean firstly, the main positive is that most anime looks significantly better in quality than it ever has, a great thanks of which goes to the high definition look which really makes the colors and detail outstanding. But, the downside is that it was around this time that fan service began to become noticeably more vibrant than usual. Also, every anime that has a male and female lead will have the male do something accidentally perverted and be smacked. Or, the female will just have lots of unnecessary scenes of partial or even full nudity, or "fan service" if you would. It is a rather strange drop from what the thousands introduced. Story is still really good in most, but even those are subject to fan service or making the male look perverted at least once. In fact, there is only perhaps one anime in this era I have seen that was not subject to any fan service whatsoever. When people said it happened often, I thought they were just exaggerating. In all fairness, if a scene of nudity is required to aid the scene then I do not mind, but sometimes it feels like an intro to a hentai. One anime I watched pretty much was hentai with a story, but only that one. And it was not too long ago, either.

It is peculiar to me because, well, thousands anime felt like it went a decade AHEAD. When I watch those anime, those are the ones that feel like twenty-ten if you know where to look. When the twenty-ten decade approached, I thought this would triumph the thousands just as much as they did the nineties. So, knowing it felt like a downgrade was very unwelcoming. Some in particular still feel nineties well a small handful feel like they are further ahead to even the current time we are in right now. And for whatever reason, when the real twenty-ten era came around, most anime seems to have felt like they all dropped significantly in story too. The animation in all fairness is spectacular and I have yet to see a twenty-ten anime when the anime style feels lackluster.

What is your favorite era of anime yourselves? And, does most of what I say here make sense? This is my understanding of anime, based on my perception of its changes over the years. I thought it was good enough to have its own post since I have been thinking about it a lot the past year. I do not mean to pull a huge dark blanket over those that enjoy nineties anime since I have appeared to come off as kind of a jerk against fans of the era for most of what has been said here. My main point was that it felt like anime in the early alpha stages. Due to how detailed it is, nineties anime would naturally feel like it is a step down from my favorite era. In all fairness, though, I have seen a few nineties anime that felt like ones in the thousands in quality and story. I just dislike them a bit because most of them feel out of place with their humor and stories sometimes.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Notshane

I have watched so many anime the past few years, much more than I ever did when I was younger. And after watching ones from the nineties, thousands and twenty-ten onward, I realize that anime went from changing for the better to declining in quality.

This sounds like massive selection bias. For instance...

Originally Posted by Notshane

And then twenty-ten felt like such a shock. [...] But, the downside is that it was around this time that fan service began to become noticeably more vibrant than usual. Also, every anime that has a male and female lead will have the male do something accidentally perverted and be smacked. Or, the female will just have lots of unnecessary scenes of partial or even full nudity, or "fan service" if you would. It is a rather strange drop from what the thousands introduced. Story is still really good in most, but even those are subject to fan service or making the male look perverted at least once. In fact, there is only perhaps one anime in this era I have seen that was not subject to any fan service whatsoever. When people said it happened often, I thought they were just exaggerating.

...I feel like asking if you even remember anime in the 2000s. You say you started watching a lot more anime "the past few years", so what shows did you select to represent the 2000s? Was it a "best of the best" selection?

There were tons of fanservice anime in the 2000s, that contained all these elements and much more. In fact, I'd venture to argue that there were even more "shounen harem/romantic comedies" in the 2000s than there are this decade, where it's shifted a bit more towards shows with a bit more of an action/harem mix (based on light novels). 2000s were the era of Love Hina, Girls Bravo, DearS, Zero no Tsukaima, Kanokon, and To Love-Ru, among many, many others.

And, really, you only found one anime in this decade with no fanservice? Compared to the 90s and 2000s? I think you may need to post your lists for comparison sake. I simply can't believe it.

[Akito Kinomoto]

tl;dr,
Interpretation of the OP #1:
90s anime are cheesy, 2000s anime are a decade ahead, 2010s anime are a decade behind or might have that cheese again.

Interpretation of the OP #2:
90s anime are meh, 2000s anime are better, 2010s went back to meh.

Anyway, by pure statistics my favorite anime era is the last decade circa 2004 to the present, because most of my highest rated series are from this time frame. However, that echelon would include more early 2000s and pre-2000s shows if I bothered to watch more shows from those time periods. As in, there would be roughly an equal number of shows across the years I rated highly; some people think anime got worse, others think it improved, but my own experience tells me there's always going to be only a few shows no matter the year that will stand out. Now, if 'bar to entry' is the measurement for favorite decade, then I prefer modern anime. But, 'higher willingness to try' isn't the same as 'guaranteed top spot.' Right now my 2014 list is small, but that will no doubt change not just this year, but in years to come; my list tends to lag behind.

[oompa loompa]

sounds like sour grapes to me, because most of your points just don't ring true; i'm not going to repeat the points relentless made but are you sure you're not just a bit jaded? or perhaps nostalgia is causing some bias?

[Notshane]

Hmm, maybe I should stick with shorter posts. This sounded more intelligent in my head, but re-reading it now I kind of sound a bit spaced out with my opinions and there are a lot of loopholes in it. I did not phrase this good at all.

[IceHism]

I'd think you would be surprised to know that sexualization have only been on an upward global trend in all aspects of life since like the 1960s. Not only is saying it wasn't prominent in old anime is a lie, but its not a thing limited to anime either.

[Fizix]

I dont think you're wrong, fan service is the most noticable thing IMO. As I said in another thread discussing toaru, its like one of those shitty running catchphrases/gags in sitcoms that just keeps on running even though it went dry after the 3rd time you saw it, but people still laugh as the laughter track tells them too.

@relentlessflame I think he is referring too fan service outside of shows that are not really designed to be fan servicey.

I think that has happened but I think it was earlier than 2010. I took a time out from like 2007-ish till last year and it's really obvious. Maybe if you've been continually following you might not notice it as much as it would be gradual?

Spoiler for off topic random comment:

But more importantly, your avatar really, really freaks me out. ��

I'm aware that it's only a picture so it can't actually hurt me, but still, I don't trust it ��

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Fizix

I dont think you're wrong, fan service is the most noticable thing IMO. As I said in another thread discussing toaru, its like one of those shitty running catchphrases/gags in sitcoms that just keeps on running even though it went dry after the 3rd time you saw it, but people still laugh as the laughter track tells them too.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong that it exists, or that some people are continuing to notice it/be bothered by it, but I really don't think it has gotten "worse" this decade compared to last. People definitely complained about it in the 2000s too, as there were plenty of shows designed entirely around sexual fanservice. It was a thing in the 90s too, but at this point few remember those shows because they generally haven't survived the "test of time" (and digital fansubs weren't around then).

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't think it's necessarily wrong that it exists, or that some people are continuing to notice it/be bothered by it, but I really don't think it has gotten "worse" this decade compared to last. People definitely complained about it in the 2000s too, as there were plenty of shows designed entirely around sexual fanservice. It was a thing in the 90s too, but at this point few remember those shows because they generally haven't survived the "test of time" (and digital fansubs weren't around then).

I've edited my post since. I took a time out and while I don't deny that fanservice existed, returning, it certainly feels like there is more. Or maybe fan service filled shows are more popular now so are more noticeable?

It definitely feels like there is more of it.

As for whether it should be there, I dunno, it's just tired, not that funny and incredibly predictable.

[arilando]

Pre-Evangelion anime is generally pretty bad, with some exemptions (especially in regards to movies and OVAS). So i would agree with your overall characterization of the 90s, altough the increase in quality started in the late 90s, not in the 2000s.

As for there being more fanservice in the 2010s, i don't really see it. The 2000s had plenty of fanservicy including in shows that weren't ecchi. There was though a surge in the number of shows with completely over the top fanservice or outright sex scenes in the latter half of the 2000s continuing in to the 2010s (shows like qwaser, to love ru, yosuga no sora, high school dxd etc.).

[Solace]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't think it's necessarily wrong that it exists, or that some people are continuing to notice it/be bothered by it, but I really don't think it has gotten "worse" this decade compared to last. People definitely complained about it in the 2000s too, as there were plenty of shows designed entirely around sexual fanservice. It was a thing in the 90s too, but at this point few remember those shows because they generally haven't survived the "test of time" (and digital fansubs weren't around then).

To use an (poor) analogy, I think it's something like how American movie ratings and the content that justifies those ratings have blurred over the years. Some of it has to do with cultural changes in terms of what the public will tolerate, and some of it has to do with how companies are better understanding what boundaries are okay to push and what aren't. And of course the desire for profits invariably leads them to pushing those boundaries as much as possible.

That tug of war between cultural values and desire for sales has led to some interesting changes in what is considered acceptable.

I wouldn't say that the use of sexual fanservice didn't exist before say, 2005, but how it was used, and what companies could get away with in, for example, a tv show versus something direct to video, has definitely changed. It has become much more acceptable to be more blatant with sexual content in tv shows, as long as certain forms of censorship are applied (decensorship is a great selling point for disc sales!), while violence seems to be more questionable depending on the state of the public (entire episodes might be pulled because of a murder or natural disaster).

It's certainly not every show, but it can feel like it, particularly when something becomes very popular such as the current trend of ecchi (in some cases borderline hentai) harem fantasy light novels.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Solace

I wouldn't say that the use of sexual fanservice didn't exist before say, 2005, but how it was used, and what companies could get away with in, for example, a tv show versus something direct to video, has definitely changed. It has become much more acceptable to be more blatant with sexual content in tv shows, as long as certain forms of censorship are applied (decensorship is a great selling point for disc sales!), while violence seems to be more questionable depending on the state of the public (entire episodes might be pulled because of a murder or natural disaster).

Well, as you allude to, there's a sense in everything that you have to be a bit different and sometimes a bit more "extreme" than whatever has come before to be noticed and not be seen as an "also-ran". So I suppose there have been some shows these days that have pushed the line more than a show from the early-2000s did. But part of this too is the rise of anime-only Pay TV channels like AT-X who are helping feed this demand for "edgier" content in order to justify the added price people pay.

Still, though, if I sample the shows airing this season vs. what was airing in the mid-2000s, I'd be pretty hard-pressed to argue that there's more fanservice-themed shows or fanservice-esque content today than there was back then. I feel like people are just forgetting all the fanservice-laden shows from the past because... they were more forgettable than the classics.

Originally Posted by Solace

It's certainly not every show, but it can feel like it, particularly when something becomes very popular such as the current trend of ecchi (in some cases borderline hentai) harem fantasy light novels.

The truth is that, even if it feels like it's "trending", it still only represents a fraction of the shows that air each season. As you say, it probably just feels "larger than life" because of the repetition. Obviously it'll pass, like all the other trends before it.

Maybe the reason it's getting more notice among certain people is because they otherwise look at the premise and think "oh, this could be interesting" and then see that it's just the latest vessel for the shounen-male harem fantasy that we've had forever. Only the setting has changed.

Originally Posted by Fizix

...while I don't deny that fanservice existed, returning, it certainly feels like there is more. Or maybe fan service filled shows are more popular now so are more noticeable?

It definitely feels like there is more of it.

I'm not sure, but has the way you're consuming content changed? The biggest change between now and 10 years ago is that now pretty much every single show currently airing is available via streaming usually within a day of airing in Japan. So nowadays, you're getting even-more exposed to the "firehose" of content than you were 10 years ago (and certainly than you were 20 years ago). This puts more pressure on you to be discriminating in what you watch, and to apply your own filters.

People whose anime experience in the 2000s was defined by popular fansubs and the shows getting R1/R2 DVD releases already had a fairly filtered experience, and it could certainly lend itself to a "rose-coloured glasses" effect. But even then, R1/R2 anime marketing in the 2000s was pretty heavy on the fanservice. (I'm not sure if ADV Films in the UK used the same ad-copy they used in North America, but... )

[aohige]

Sexualization hasn't really increased, just the inherent lewdness has.
In fact, there were more blunt adult themes and "fan service" in the 80s than post 2000s.
They were just a lot more straight forward and blunt.

Heck, I even remember a scene on Cobra where a hooker was riding a dude, then proceeded to rip him in half.... on Sunday morning cartoon slot.

Of course, self-restrictions were far less tight, and you could even show real-life boob fondling on public broadcast stations back then as well.

[arilando]

Originally Posted by aohige

Sexualization hasn't really increased, just the inherent lewdness has.
In fact, there were more blunt adult themes and "fan service" in the 80s than post 2000s.
They were just a lot more straight forward and blunt.

Heck, I even remember a scene on Cobra where a hooker was riding a dude, then proceeded to rip him in half.... on Sunday morning cartoon slot.

Of course, self-restrictions were far less tight, and you could even show real-life boob fondling on public broadcast stations back then as well.

Any examples?

[king12354]

I think another problem is that there aren't many series that have a strong storyline and studios are just looking to make a quick buck instead of taking time to put out a quality product. Looking at the animesuki award winners for last year just makes me shake my head.

I would really like to see an original story with good characters, good setting, and good plot but it seems I'm asking too much nowadays.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by king12354

I think another problem is that there aren't many series that have a strong storyline and studios are just looking to make a quick buck instead of taking time to put out a quality product. Looking at the animesuki award winners for last year just makes me shake my head.

I would really like to see an original story with good characters, good setting, and good plot but it seems I'm asking too much nowadays.

Meaning what, specifically? Usually when I hear people say this, they mean more like "in a genre I like", "featuring characters I like", "with an artstyle I like", and "without any of the crap I don't like"... which I'm not sure have much to do with characters, setting or plot beyond just simple preferences. Like, what didn't you enjoy about this past year's picks?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by arilando

Any examples?

There were nudity and sex in shows like Lupin and Cobra, and even children shows like Doraemon and Esper Mami had nudity.
Heck we had very popular series like Maicching Machiko Sensei, which was classified a children's show, yet the entire THEME was constant sexual harassment of a woman.
Sasuga no Sarutobi was also a kid's show with similar theme, albeit not as incessant as Machiko-sensei.

You can't get away with any of that nowadays, but instead of blunt sexualization, they shifted focus into suggestive expression.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Like, what didn't you enjoy about this past year's picks?

I'll tell you something I don't like about LN adaptations: they're commercials for the LN, there is no real interest in telling a complete story, it's one of the reasons I pick up less and less of them, I don't want to get started on a show I know I'll never see the end of.
If you insist on making something out of an ongoing work I would rather see anime original endings but I'm probably in the minority in that regard

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, as you allude to, there's a sense in everything that you have to be a bit different and sometimes a bit more "extreme" than whatever has come before to be noticed and not be seen as an "also-ran". So I suppose there have been some shows these days that have pushed the line more than a show from the early-2000s did. But part of this too is the rise of anime-only Pay TV channels like AT-X who are helping feed this demand for "edgier" content in order to justify the added price people pay.

Still, though, if I sample the shows airing this season vs. what was airing in the mid-2000s, I'd be pretty hard-pressed to argue that there's more fanservice-themed shows or fanservice-esque content today than there was back then. I feel like people are just forgetting all the fanservice-laden shows from the past because... they were more forgettable than the classics.


The truth is that, even if it feels like it's "trending", it still only represents a fraction of the shows that air each season. As you say, it probably just feels "larger than life" because of the repetition. Obviously it'll pass, like all the other trends before it.

Maybe the reason it's getting more notice among certain people is because they otherwise look at the premise and think "oh, this could be interesting" and then see that it's just the latest vessel for the shounen-male harem fantasy that we've had forever. Only the setting has changed.



I'm not sure, but has the way you're consuming content changed? The biggest change between now and 10 years ago is that now pretty much every single show currently airing is available via streaming usually within a day of airing in Japan. So nowadays, you're getting even-more exposed to the "firehose" of content than you were 10 years ago (and certainly than you were 20 years ago). This puts more pressure on you to be discriminating in what you watch, and to apply your own filters.

People whose anime experience in the 2000s was defined by popular fansubs and the shows getting R1/R2 DVD releases already had a fairly filtered experience, and it could certainly lend itself to a "rose-coloured glasses" effect. But even then, R1/R2 anime marketing in the 2000s was pretty heavy on the fanservice. (I'm not sure if ADV Films in the UK used the same ad-copy they used in North America, but... )

I don't know tbh. I'm not being scientific about it, its a perception thing. I look at anime now and it feels like popular shows are much more fan-servicey and sexualised than they used to be. I don't remember it being quite so bad.

[Sheba]

Ranma casually walking in the nude, fanservice with women in City Hunter. I am well in my 30s and remember quite well that anime before did have their lewd moments.