(L) Übel Blatt

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Cats

To some extent so is he. So you could say the same.

They're trying to kill him because they believe him to be a murderer, out to kill a good man they've sworn to protect. He's trying to kill them, despite thinking they're good guys, because they're in his way.

Yes "should have been" if not for blah blah blah... That's not the case, so its killed or be killed. Its not like the soldiers are just defending themselves if anything they shot first; though of course we have the exceptions where Archriit directly intervened with intent to kill. Understand I agree with some of the points you made, but given what you want (Archriit just die by the soldiers? cuz they *might* be good guys or something) I do not sympathize with your reasoning.

Wrong. He had many opportunities to just walk away. He also could have tried to be more stealthy than he's been, if he'd just been willing to wait. But he chose to go for the heroes, through their soldiers. Of course, once he engaged, he lost the option to "just walk away". But he's the one who chose to put himself in that situation.

[felix]

At that rate the heroes would have died by old age, along with god knows how many people due to the ambitions of the first two. Unless you're going to defend the soldiers who were raping the town folk or the ones before that who were murdering people for bribes or the bandits who were killing and pillaging at will, Archriit hasn't killed any innocent soldiers otherwise (unless you can give me a precise example of any of them dieing).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Cats

At that rate the heroes would have died by old age, along with god knows how many people due to the ambitions of the first two. Unless you're going to defend the soldiers who were raping the town folk or the ones before that who were murdering people for bribes or the bandits who were killing and pillaging at will,

I won't defend them. But I still think Asherit could have been more discreet if he'd been more patient. And if the heroes died of old age - well, too bad.

Archriit hasn't killed any innocent soldiers otherwise (unless you can give me a precise example of any of them dieing).

Hello? He dropped an airship on an army. Are we supposed to believe that the guys in the airship, as well the the guys below it, somehow didn't die?

[felix]

You're in a flaming airship? do you just sit there and die instead of going to the lifeboats (which we know they have). I could be wrong but I don't remember seeing dead soldiers from that. Not that I care, if anything I think the author needs to give him some cold blood.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by Majek

No. People are saying that those he kills cannot be labeled as innocent victims of murder just because we know nothing about them.

Yeah I agree.
We cant say every person he kills doesn't deserve to die...
Because we don't know anything about them...
But the 7 Lances of Betrayal (called the 7 Heroes)...
I don't feel sorry for them in the least...
They betrayed him and the other 3 in cold blood after they risked their lives so the 7 of them and the kingdom can live....
If Koinz let them live on... what does that do for the ones who were the real heroes?
What about their honor and the respect they deserve...
Its wasn't enough for them to betray them...
Instead of saying they died in battle they called them the traitors...
And dragged their names and reputation through the mud and made them hated..
And They did it so shamelessly... that's a crime that carries a death penalty...
Those bastards deserve to die

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So it's okay to kill people because you know nothing about them and they might be puppy kickers? From what we've seen, they were just soldiers, fighting to protect their country.

All of them believe they can kill him and they know nothing about him. So why should things be any other for them?

[Lostdreams]

I wonder what would happen if Koenzell unleashed his true form. Not his human/elf one. Or is the angel thing his true form. Also, theories on how this anime will end. Koenzell saves the world from the disaster, dies, and becomes a hero.

[felix]

I don't think it will end any time soon. Though I am expecting this "kill the 7" arc to end relatively quickly given all that has come to pass.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Cats

You're in a flaming airship? do you just sit there and die instead of going to the lifeboats (which we know they have). I could be wrong but I don't remember seeing dead soldiers from that. Not that I care, if anything I think the author needs to give him some cold blood.

No time to evacuate everyone. Or to save the poor bastards below the ship.

Originally Posted by Majek

All of them believe they can kill him and they know nothing about him. So why should things be any other for them?

They know he's the "hero killing rebel" and they know that they're soldiers with orders to get him. What more do you want?

[felix]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No time to evacuate everyone. Or to save the poor bastards below the ship.

You are too fast to drawing conclusions. Where's your proof anybody died? And as I read it he just sabotaged the ship, not destroy it, so it came crashing down not pluming down or else wouldn't he have died also? (unless I'm remembering something wrong)

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They know he's the "hero killing rebel" and they know that they're soldiers with orders to get him. What more do you want?

And why mustn't he be allowed to kill them then? They're out to kill him so it's killed or be killed. Why do you keep on blabbering about innocents and other crap?

[felix]

He doesn't believe in "silent leges inter arma" (tr. laws are silent in war), and has this view that those in power and those who follow them have absolute right and justice by their side and so Archriit has no right to kill them. From a political perspective (given we have here a monarchy of sorts) he's not wrong; but obviously a lot of us are not going to label Archriit hero or traitor based on the values of the scumbags in the show.

Just let it die Majek, we're only fueling a redundant and pointless nitpicking discussion.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Cats

He doesn't believe in "silent leges inter arma" (tr. laws are silent in war), and has this view that those in power and those who follow them have absolute right and justice by their side and so Archriit has no right to kill them. From a political perspective (given we have here a monarchy of sorts) he's not wrong; but obviously a lot of us are not going to label Archriit hero or traitor based on the values of the scumbags in the show.

Just let it die Majek, we're only fueling a redundant and pointless nitpicking discussion.

Sigh. No. I do not believe that those in power are automatically right. However, I believe that those soldiers are victims, not criminals. They've been deceived, and are following perfectly lawful orders.

Asheritt, on the other hand, knowingly attacks innocents. It's different. He may have his reasons, and they may be enough to justify the steps he's taken. But that doesn't change the fact that he has, indeed, killed innocents for his revenge. To say otherwise would only cheapen him.

I also believe that "it's war" isn't a good excuse for anything. Especially when not at war.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Somebody please!!!!!!!!!
Tell me why its taking sooooooooo long for chapter 75 to be released???!!!

[felix]

No asking for when next episode/chapter is released. // forum policy =P

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by Cats

No asking for when next episode/chapter is released. // forum policy =P

Didn't know that.
Thanks for letting me know

[Direwolf18]

Originally Posted by Cats

You are too fast to drawing conclusions. Where's your proof anybody died? And as I read it he just sabotaged the ship, not destroy it, so it came crashing down not pluming down or else wouldn't he have died also? (unless I'm remembering something wrong)

Generally speaking when a ship sinks or a plane crashes people are going to die. And frequently many people will die. There is a reason the whole Miracle in the Hudson thing was such a big deal. To say nothing of the fact that this was a warship. Look at any warship that has gone down via enemy fire and find me an example of no one dying. Its just the way it goes. Unless of course the author tries to go with some Dues Ex Machina but for some reason I doubt it. While yes its true the author did not explicitly say people died when it crashed its a pretty safe bet.

My opinion of this good guy bad guy debate is this. Yes he has killed soldiers, however he does not enjoy it, or revel in their death and destruction like Alucard would. He isnt going out of his way to kill people, but he wont let a body count of those who are trying to stop him from seeing something that almost looks like Justice be done. He may regret the necessity of their deaths but he isnt exactly overwhelmed with options.

Now the soldiers that he killed that were blatantly trying to harm inocent civilians, thats a whole nother story.

[Xellos-_^]

vol9 in chinese is out

[paradox13]

killed innocents for his revenge

Innocent of what?

They support a corrupt regime, in fact they are fighting for it. In order to fight against that regime, one would inevitably come into conflict with those who support it. Its natural, theres nothing wrong with that. Its not like Koinzell is a murderer. He is fighting a war here.

"Country vs 1 person" isn't a war by any reasonable definition. Not even a civil war.

..

War is just defined as a conflict between two entities.

Theres been a war against drugs, a war against terrorism and a war against aids. At least this country versus 1 man war is more then just a metaphorical war right?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Innocent of what?

They support a corrupt regime, in fact they are fighting for it. In order to fight against that regime, one would inevitably come into conflict with those who support it. Its natural, theres nothing wrong with that. Its not like Koinzell is a murderer. He is fighting a war here.

That argument would have more weight if Koinzell was trying to overthrow the empire. He's not. Even now, he still wishes for its stability and prosperity - he just wants his vengeance more.

And the soldiers he fights aren't some jackbooted thugs (Barestar's troops notwithstanding). They don't know the heroes are "corrupt". They're just soldiers protecting their country, with courage and discipline. As far as Koinzell is concerned, that makes them good people.

War is just defined as a conflict between two entities.

Theres been a war against drugs, a war against terrorism and a war against aids. At least this country versus 1 man war is more then just a metaphorical war right?

I said "reasonable definition". That doesn't include the government using it like a buzzword. Or what, the next time you see a schoolyard fight, you're going to call it a war? And if one kid kills the other, shrug it off? I mean, it's war. Or what about some juvie defacing a public building with graffiti? That's war, too?