The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Ithekro]

Haruhi is not the "Gatekeeper" She's what is behind the gate.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Haruhi is not the "Gatekeeper" She's what is behind the gate.

Actually, she's both.

Haruhi is the gatekeeper because of her common sense; her power is what's behind the gate...

[Ithekro]

Wouldn't Mikuru, Yuki, and Itsuki be the gatekeepers? As well as the watchers.

They keep the gate and only through them does the key have access to what lies beyond ("Snow White", "Sleeping Beauty", "Why don't you you come up from behind her and say 'I love you'.")

[mitsuganae]

As to what Kyon and Haruhi are, I prefer Yuki's take on it in her short story in Indignation:

"The man started singing in a low voice. Synchronizing with the white cloth's dance."

Of course, Kyon is so dense that he doesn't realize who the man and the woman wearing the white cloth represent.

Just popped in to say that. Will pop out now.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

They keep the gate and only through them does the key have access to what lies beyond ("Snow White", "Sleeping Beauty", "Why don't you you come up from behind her and say 'I love you'.")

...All this key/gate talk is getting kinda sexual.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by mitsuganae

As to what Kyon and Haruhi are, I prefer Yuki's take on it in her short story in Indignation:

"The man started singing in a low voice. Synchronizing with the white cloth's dance."

Of course, Kyon is so dense that he doesn't realize who the man and the woman wearing the white cloth represent.

Just popped in to say that. Will pop out now.

I always thought the characters in the short story were Koizumi and Mikuru, not Kyon and Haruhi.

[mitsuganae]

Well, that's what Kyon thinks too!

I myself think otherwise, but of course I may be wrong.

[panzerfan]

Well Kaisos, looks like it's time we head over to Copenhagen and look at Bohr and the gang once more...
(And I am surprised that ontology thread will see a return from the dead like this. I will fill up my argument once I start looking up at research)

@Kaisos Erranon: Because it's a return to the Future with Clannad AS.

I just started to read about Transactional interpretation and it seems to explain Nagato pretty good, well up to a point...

Basically, unlike Clannad Afterstory, the world view of Haruhi is firmly grounded with the idea of waveform collapse, which...

Originally Posted by wikipedia

those who hold to the Copenhagen understanding are willing to say that a wave function involves the various probabilities that a given event will proceed to certain different outcomes. But when one or another of those more- or less-likely outcomes becomes manifest the other probabilities cease to have any function in the real world. So if an electron passes through a double slit apparatus there are various probabilities for where on the detection screen that individual electron will hit. But once it has hit, there is no longer any probability whatsoever that it will hit somewhere else. Many-worlds interpretations say that an electron hits wherever there is a possibility that it might hit, and that each of these hits occurs in a separate universe.

So in some sense, Kyon is causing these wavefunction collapse by favoring certain possibilities. (I think prior discussion have delved into this)

It is damn tempting for me to try looking at Endless Eight as a case of many worlds, but this runs completely against the copenhagen views. In short, I am going to spend the time looking at how one can have these 2 week loops, having nagato retaining all of the memories and kyon the conventional observer knowing nothing and all.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Well Kaisos, looks like it's time we head over to Copenhagen and look at Bohr and the gang once more...

What? I know you're talking about quantum physics, but why are you addressing me?

[PraiseDivineMercy]

Wow, I've haven't seen a anime-inspired conversation like this since the Noein thread.

As one who enjoys the study of theology, I applaud of the use of the word "ontology" here. It definitely had me laughing!

Originally Posted by Vexx

Aye, that's my favorite .... but it basically implies that Free Will is an illusion or that the timeline is so resilient that free will choices are swamped out by the "inevitable tendencies". Physics-wise, the multiple-verses of timelines seems to fit the available data the best though the debate is still on in science.

Although this one timeline only theory is often best ignored in literature, it's the theory I subscribe to, as it counters the idea of time paradoxes. However, I would say that it can paradoxically support free will. The idea being that an original choice of free will shapes time itself in certain way that cannot be easily changed.

I've heard that in the original novels, "dimensional travelers" is always included alongside espers, time travelers, and aliens in the list that Haruhi cites.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by PraiseDivineMercy

I've heard that in the original novels, "dimensional travelers" is always included alongside espers, time travelers, and aliens in the list that Haruhi cites.

Most english localizations use the term "sliders", but yeah. Although, it's not clear whether they're from "alternate timelines" or "alternate universes", which would be different things altogether.

[PraiseDivineMercy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Most english localizations use the term "sliders", but yeah. Although, it's not clear whether they're from "alternate timelines" or "alternate universes", which would be different things altogether.

But if we take as given the many worlds interpretation of time travel, would they be the same thing?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by PraiseDivineMercy

But if we take as given the many worlds interpretation of time travel, would they be the same thing?

Actually, no.

The worlds in the many-worlds interpretation would just be different versions of the same universe. A completely alternate universe would have had completely different origins, a completely different start point.

And I don't believe in the many-worlds interpretation in regards to this series anyway. It seems rather... counter to the time travel Kyon has gone through.

[PraiseDivineMercy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Actually, no.

The worlds in the many-worlds interpretation would just be different versions of the same universe. A completely alternate universe would have had completely different origins, a completely different start point.

And I don't believe in the many-worlds interpretation in regards to this series anyway. It seems rather... counter to the time travel Kyon has gone through.

Ah, you're right, the series does contradict that theory in the first episode of this season. As strange as Haruhi may get, I would hope it remains consistent.

I've only read a few bits and pieces of the novels, but the whole solution to the endless eight

Spoiler for spoiler for novels:

with Kyon ending the cycle by finishing his homework

lends support for the theory that Kyon is the one with powers.

However, what if Haruhi is indeed the original source and is pushing the powers off on him, rather than vice versa as the theory goes?

It might also be possible that they both have powers, with Kyon serving as a balance or counter agent to Haruhi. It might explain why the others are so open with him about their origins in any case.

[spawnofthejudge]

Jeez, I just can't think straight today. Lemme try this again.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The worlds in the many-worlds interpretation would just be different versions of the same universe. A completely alternate universe would have had completely different origins, a completely different start point.

And I don't believe in the many-worlds interpretation in regards to this series anyway. It seems rather... counter to the time travel Kyon has gone through.

Not necessarily. According to the quantum theory of 'time travel', Kyon (our Kyon, Kyon 1) goes to world two, where it happens to be three years before world one. He does his deed in the 'past', then sleeps until he wakes in world two. Kyon 2 left at the same point in time from that world that Kyon 1 had from his own, so it's like it was the same Kyon, but it isn't.

Of course, according to that, time-travel doesn't actually exist per se, making Mikuru a slider as much as a time-traveler.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Not necessarily. According to the quantum theory of 'time travel', Kyon (our Kyon, Kyon 1) goes to world two, where it happens to be three years before world one. He does his deed in the 'past', then sleeps until he wakes in world two. Kyon 2 left at the same point in time from that world that Kyon 1 had from his own, so it's like it was the same Kyon, but it isn't.

WAY too complex.

You have to take some things at face value, especially because Kyon even draws attention to how his time travel contradicts what Mikuru told him.

[panzerfan]

Well, the reason why many worlds does not work well with Haruhi standpoint lies in the fact that many world rests on the idea that there is no such thing as the waveform collapse (ie: Kyon's preference killing off other possibilities so we get one reality to base things out of)

Many world looks at waveform collapse as something called decoherance. This in this sense mean that... Kyon, who is unable to perceive things as a bunch of probabilities (branching), will end up looking at exactly that as he goes on in the course of life and he is skewed into thinking that those other paths that have flown by would been "collapsed" as in "other probabilities cease to have any function in the real world". Just in this alone Haruhi, which to me is based off of Copenhagen viewpoint would not reconcile with many worlds.

The hilarious thing that also made me conclude that Haruhi's based off Copenhagen is in Wigner's Friend thought experiment, where Wigner, who owns the Schrödinger's cat had his friend does the experiment, that will take a day before anyone learns the result, argues that the set of dead cat/sad friend or live cat/happy friend is determined by:

either it happened the moment when you open the box
or it happened sometime before that.

Note that the friend's convinced that the cat lives and he's optimistic, while we the observer think that it's 50-50.

Well to Copenhagen, each observer (Wigner and his friend) has different information and therefore different wave functions, showing how subjective probability can be... and that what his friend thinks hold no impact on what Wigner sees.

whereas in many worlds, the very history splits the moment when Wigner cracks open that box, into a happy friend and a depressed friend world. The friend won't be the wiser about any of this... as his friend can comprehend that two histories are formed out of this. Wigner, the trained physicist would realize that despite having no Wigner world A talking to Wigner world B.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

There are no paradoxes in Haruhi.

Except the mole thing.

And the whole "Kyon giving Haruhi the idea to go to North High" fiasco in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody.

[Alesiopdv]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

There are no paradoxes in Haruhi.

Except the mole thing.

And the whole "Kyon giving Haruhi the idea to go to North High" fiasco in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody.

Sooo there are no paradoxes in Haruhi.

Except for the star mole and Bamboo Leaf and Vanishment and Intrigues.

So Yeah.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Alesiopdv

Sooo there are no paradoxes in Haruhi.

Except for the star mole and Bamboo Leaf and Vanishment and Intrigues.

I don't remenber Intrigues being paradoxal. Care to explain?

(what is "fiasco" BTW? We have the same word in portuguese, but it don't seens to fit here)

*e*
Three post at same time!!