Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kaname Madoka

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by kaigan

uhm, i don't consider the white wings fake yet. the white wings were used to cushion her landing after jumping from a skyscraper. it was not used to attack. probably it's for defensive purposes. homura glows and her bow appears. then she commence to attack with bow and arrow.

No i meant what YOU the viewer saw was fake, as in you saw everything as the controlled Homura would have seen it. Only after the credits was how things really were.

Originally Posted by kaigan

although, witch madoka might be talking to her, i consider this unlikely. witch madoka was shot and howled as she vanished. goddess madoka said that she won't even despair. so i guess the witch madoka was probably defeated and no way present in homu's battle. besides goddess madoka was not even attacked or shot at.

That's the thing. No one witnessed who won. Homura got hit with a black and white screen before fading like an anime drawing (loved that). The thing continued only after she awoke.

I'm not saying that witch Madoka definitely won, i'm saying that this is a possibility that i find no evidence to refute, much of it because of Witch Madoka's ability.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

If they are following actual physics, you cannot completely stop entropy. Lets say Timeline 3's Madoka's energy is enough to create a new universe. This at best adds the life span of 1 universe to the deadline.

If the lifespan of 1 universe before heat death is X, the result would be Kyubei now has (2X - Age of universe) time left. entropy is not stopped but delayed.

Then we have to note that the value of X is actually small (!) enough to trouble the incubators to set up their farm. A value of 2X is not going to be massively helpful.

This implies that they would continue to find new energy sources to delay heat death (ignoring some duhhhh! points on actual science)

The only way they had solved the heat death problem would be to change the universal law of entropy like Madoka did for mahou shoujos

Their universe's physical law may not be the same as ours - the fact that the MG system, magic and wishes can exist can prob attest to that.

Also, preventing heat death or entropy is QB's pitch. Whether that is true or not we do not know. But what we do know is that they are farming for energy and have a goal in mind. It is entirely possible Madoka presents a scenario that the energy release has met their goal.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Their universe's physical law may not be the same as ours - the fact that the MG system, magic and wishes can exist can prob attest to that.

Except that Kyubei's explaination is our 2nd law of thermodynamics. Even the word entropy is used the same. As the universal heat death scenerio is based on the 2nd law which Kyubei quoted, the result is the same regardless.

If they were lying then sure, the amount of energy might be enough for their non-stated purposes. However no evidence exists to support either side of truth or lies.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

No i meant what YOU the viewer saw was fake, as in you saw everything as the controlled Homura would have seen it. Only after the credits was how things really were.

That's the thing. No one witnessed who won. Homura got hit with a black and white screen before fading like an anime drawing (loved that). The thing continued only after she awoke.

I'm not saying that witch Madoka definitely won, i'm saying that this is a possibility that i find no evidence to refute, much of it because of Witch Madoka's ability.

my apologies. i misunderstood. if the scene with white wings was fake or just an illusion to us and to homura, that would make the succeeding scenes after witch madoka exploded seriously doubtful too, including the homu x mado nude "farewell" scene which is directly connected to the white wings scene.

besides, if homu was engulfed in a witch barrier, isn't she supposedly experiencing paradise by then now? but the white wings scene is far from paradise/heaven. it's more of a continuing struggle and not rest. so it's unlikely to be an illusion, i guess.

now regarding the voice, i doubt if it's witch madoka talking. so far, no known pm-turned-witch ever talk in her old pm/human voice yet. the available examples are sayaka and madoka. both their witch forms' howls sound more like a beast, anything but human.

now, if it is still indeed just an illusion (i hope not), then we are victimized by epic trolling right in the very emotional moment of this episode. just like you said, it will be a bad storytelling indeed. it's possible but i think it will be stretching too far.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

I'm not saying that witch Madoka definitely won, i'm saying that this is a possibility that i find no evidence to refute, much of it because of Witch Madoka's ability.

Was a "battle" (in the sense of a conflict with winners and losers) even fought, per se? The scene of Witch Madoka being destroyed wasn't a conflict between Madoka and her Witch, really, since it seems probable that Madoka was that Witch, and the Madoka that destroyed it was thus a product of her wish. If that were the case then there wouldn't have been a battle as such, since it would just have been Madoka's wish exterminating her own Witch before it could do anything.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Originally Posted by kaigan

now regarding the voice, i doubt if it's witch madoka talking. so far, no known pm-turned-witch ever talk in her old pm/human voice yet. the available examples are sayaka and madoka. both their witch forms' howls sound more like a beast, anything but human

It should be noted that the first time we hear Oktavia's voice it speaks, despite sounding quite inhuman, with the same voice actress as Sayaka. Were it to speak coherently, it's possible it would sound the same as Sayaka; we can't confirm this, but it's plausible.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Akashin

It should be noted that the first time we hear Oktavia's voice it speaks, despite sounding quite inhuman, with the same voice actress as Sayaka. Were it to speak coherently, it's possible it would sound the same as Sayaka; we can't confirm this, but it's plausible.

if you're referring to the first few minutes of ep 9, i could definitely hear something from oktavia. but it's hardly a voice that speaks coming directly from the witch. it's more like a loud cry or groan of anger and despair, hence my howl assumption. we can contrast this to the mocking laughter of WN.

now, both witches don't speak like when they were in their old pm/human form. in fact, they didn't articulate recognizable words, just sounds. unlike the "voice" in the desert it is clearly and distinguishably human/pm. the words are crisp: "ganbatte".

a possible counter to this in the voice when homu walks into a barrier in tl1. but we can't be truly sure if this is from a witch or a familiar. and there is yet an evidence that the witch izabel was also a pm-turned-witch.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by kaigan

if you're referring to the first few minutes of ep 9, i could definitely hear something from oktavia. but it's hardly a voice that speaks coming directly from the witch. it's more like a loud cry or groan of anger and despair, hence my howl assumption. we can contrast this to the mocking laughter of WN.

now, both witches don't speak like when they were in their old pm/human form. in fact, they didn't articulate recognizable words, just sounds. unlike the "voice" in the desert it is clearly and distinguishably human/pm. the words are crisp: "ganbatte".

a possible counter to this in the voice when homu walks into a barrier in tl1. but we can't be truly sure if this is from a witch or a familiar. and there is yet an evidence that the witch izabel was also a pm-turned-witch.

Oh, I know; I perfectly agree. I was just making the point that when it makes that inhuman howl (I'm referring to the close up of Oktavia's face at the start of the episode), it does so with Sayaka's voice. I wasn't arguing that this is evidence, just that if Oktavia were to speak (whether it even can or not is completely up for debate), it may also do so with Sayaka's voice.

It's all a moot point, really.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Oh, I know; I perfectly agree. I was just making the point that when it makes that inhuman howl (I'm referring to the close up of Oktavia's face at the start of the episode), it does so with Sayaka's voice. I wasn't arguing that this is evidence, just that if Oktavia were to speak (whether it even can or not is completely up for debate), it may also do so with Sayaka's voice.

It's all a moot point, really.

hehe, i wasn't arguing either. i actually see your point. besides the witches' seiyuu are females too, i guess. what you are saying is actually possible, who knows if that was truly izabel's voice in tl1 and she was a pm before. however, as of current pieces of evidence are available, i found it hard to believe that the voice in the desert is witch madoka and the white wings scene is just an illusion.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I was just making the point that when it makes that inhuman howl (I'm referring to the close up of Oktavia's face at the start of the episode), it does so with Sayaka's voice.

It is Sayaka's voice, but it's also the only time you hear that kind of noise come from Octavia. I interpreted the screams as the last remnant of Sayaka transforming into Octavia.....I can't imagine it's a pleasant experience in the slightest, considering that Madoka looked like she was in utter agony when she turned into a Witch in Episode 10.

There's only two known instances of Witches talking in human language in the anime: Isadel and Elly (Kirsten). I'm not sure how much you can draw from that though, despite whatever former attachments they had, they also don't seem to be aware of things like a human is.

[Snork]

besides, if homu was engulfed in a witch barrier, isn't she supposedly experiencing paradise by then now? but the white wings scene is far from paradise/heaven. it's more of a continuing struggle and not rest. so it's unlikely to be an illusion, i guess.

Indeed, Gretchen's stated goal was to eliminate grief in the world by creating her own heaven and dragging everyone there. If this is how she sees heaven without grief, I'd say it's a bit too twisted even for a witch.

so far, no known pm-turned-witch ever talk in her old pm/human voice yet

There's also Isabel, but she's the only talking witch we've seen (unless you consider Gertrude communicating via her familiars), and there's no way to find out if her voice is anything like the girl she was born from. Oh, and Walpurgis Night as well, but she does more laughing than talking anyway.
The cry Octavia gave, on the other hand, definitely sounds like Sayaka's voice to me. Then again, she stayed silent in all subsequent events we witnessed, even when her hand was sliced off. Maybe her voice was deafened by music, or maybe what we heard was Sayaka's last cry of agony before she ceased to exist...
Oh wait, much of this has been pointed out before me. But did Kirsten talk, too? I don't remember this.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Snork

Indeed, Gretchen's stated goal was to eliminate grief in the world by creating her own heaven and dragging everyone there. If this is how she sees heaven without grief, I'd say it's a bit too twisted even for a witch.

Yeah, I'd say Gretchen's idea of "heaven" would likely be more in line with what Homura said in timeline 3. About how maybe it wouldn't be so bad to become a monster that destroys everything until "all the sad things" are gone, as if they never existed. It might be over-thinking it to assume her "heaven" is a ST:Generations-like Nexus, even though that's how I read her witch card at first.

Maybe just laying waste to a saddened world -- which as Homura put it "can't be saved" -- would be like heaven to Gretchen.

[Essa Maneira]

wanna know the 100 questions to madoka?
read here: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/100_Questions

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Solace

It is Sayaka's voice, but it's also the only time you hear that kind of noise come from Octavia. I interpreted the screams as the last remnant of Sayaka transforming into Octavia.....I can't imagine it's a pleasant experience in the slightest, considering that Madoka looked like she was in utter agony when she turned into a Witch in Episode 10.

There's only two known instances of Witches talking in human language in the anime: Isadel and Elly (Kirsten). I'm not sure how much you can draw from that though, despite whatever former attachments they had, they also don't seem to be aware of things like a human is.

I specified the start of the episode since I couldn't remember if Oktavia continued to use Sayaka's voice after that point. If she doesn't, you're likely correct in saying that it being the last remnant of Sayaka.

Originally Posted by Essa Maneira

wanna know the 100 questions to madoka?
read here: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/100_Questions

I can't remember how old this is, but it's been around for a while. Still really helpful (in understanding Madoka's character and, to me, in fleshing her out for writing about her) though.

[Snork]

The questions were published before the broadcast IIRC.
Ah, what a time of speculations and anticipations it was...

[night_sentinel]

Hello guys, just want you post this video I found while surfing. Its Madoka's character song with lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEscuT0AKpU

Spoiler for Review of See you Tomorrow:

When I have heard of Madoka's character song while catching up at the enormous backlog of post around here. I thought it was a fluffy happy song especially with the Madoka's perky voice singing it. But, after listening at the song and knowing what the lyrics actually say... I feel like its a hidden knife twisting in my gut and making me feel a the tang of bitter more in the "bittersweet ending".

I don't know if its because I recently re-watched the last two episode. But, I feel that this song pertains to the post series Madoka and since I have nothing better to do I'll analyze the lyrics here.

Lyrics:

Saying, "See you later," I wave my hand
Forcing myself to smile, yet I'm feeling lonely...
At the intersection, there are traffic lights, cars honking far away
and the sound of strangers laughing together
Today, I walk alone, even if I'm used to going through this city
Somehow, for a moment
I feel like I'm tiny more than I usually do

Interpretation:
If this is Madoka's pov pre-series, it just confirms that Madoka have an understated inferiority complex and a natural people person who like being surrounded by her loved ones. Not an earth-shaking revelation, only it makes the events post-series about Madoka's fate more tragic.

If this is Madoka's pov post series, Madoka must be feeling ridiculously alone in her eternal fight with the witches. Being aware of everything and not being able to interact or be part of anything must be torture. I liken the feeling to the alone in a crowd feeling that we sometimes feel only ten times worse since Madoka isn't even part of reality.

And perhaps you're wondering why a powerful God can feel little about since Madoka is technically helping all mahou-shoujo for eternity. But, I think that we must remember that no one really remembers Madoka anymore. To have all that power and not being able to do anything about it and all the mahou shoujo she's seeing are destined to disappear. It is possible that Madoka might be feeling little or powerless from time to time.

Lyrics:
Saying, "See you later," I wave my hand
Cracking a smile, yet I'm feeling lonely
The truth is, I still have more to talk about
But with the words "See you later"
I say we'll meet again, but it's a lie
and with my usual smile, I say
"See you tomorrow"

Interpretation
Now, I've said it before but, I was re-watching the finale when I heard this song and I can't help but feel that this pertains to the goodbye scene between Madoka and Homura (the one in whatever place that is/limbo/space/etc). Watching that scene, the only thing that made it bearable is madoka's smiling face that she's at peace with her choice.

Now, notice the lyrics above, and the abrupt parting that she have with Homura whom she finally understand at that moment and will be parted the next moment. She must have a lot to say to her newly discovered "best friend" but, all she can say it that they will meet again.

Lyric:
I'm pretending that I'm used to being alone
But I'm not really that strong

Interpretation:
Notice that Madoka's fate in the finale is an eternity spent alone and though it looks like she's okay with it. Like the lyric she might just be pretending to be... sometimes she might miss companionship...

Lyrics:
Instead of "See you later"
I should've said, "I'll stay for a little longer"
I wanted and hoped that you would realize it
But with the words "See you later"
I lie to myself again
And hide my true feelings beneath my usual smile

Saying, "See you later," I wave my hand
Cracking a smile, yet I'm feeling lonely
The truth is, I still have more to talk about
But even my voice saying, "See you later"
is so near yet far from you that it can't reach you
So let me say this like I always do, just once more
"See you tomorrow"

Interpretation:

And now at this part, I'm wondering if I have yuri goggles at my face because no matter how impartial I'm trying to be for me this song is Madoka to Homura. The "you" is blatantly Homura in the song since she is the only one in the series that Madoka promised to meet in some nebulous timeframe which is not "later", but "tomorrow" - somewhere in the future.

And more reference about the parting in space that perhaps Madoka regretted or wished that instead of saying that they will meet again. She should have stayed longer with Homura now that they can finally have a heart to heart talk since she finally understand where Homura is coming from.

And with the stinger we know that Madoka can talk or be heard by Homura sometimes. Notice this lyric: But even my voice saying, "See you later" is so near yet far from you that it can't reach you. I think that this a blatant reference.

You know, my only problem with the Madoka/Homura pariring is the fact that it seems at times one sided on Homura's side. Though it can't really be faulted since Madoka barely knows Homura. But, if my interpretation is correct post series Madoka returns Homura's affections for her...

I should've said, "I'll stay for a little longer"
I wanted and hoped that you would realize it
But with the words "See you later"
I lie to myself again
And hide my true feelings beneath my usual smile

I bolded that one because it shows that there are affections personal in nature Madoka feels for Homura. Now, whether those affections are platonic in nature or romantic or agape is anyone guess. But after hearing this song... I think whatever the feelings between Homura and Madoka are deep on both sides. In fact, I would call them soul mates on some level considering they're the only one that can understand the other, literally. Only Madoka knows Homura's time shenigans and only Homura knows that Madoka existed and if I understand the ending right continues to fight for Madoka. It makes their dynamic compelling and really beautiful but it also adds another level of tragic. Not that it isn't tragic enough to begin with

Sigh.. if anyone wants to contest this interpretation feel free especially if you have fluffly ones

[rantuyetmai]

^ To my understanding, See You Tomorrow is Madoka at TL1 saying goodbye the day before she headed off to Walpurgisnacht battle. Considering this song came out together with Drama CD1 and the sentiment of this conversation:

"Memories of You" 25:23

Madoka: Hey, if... and this is just an "If"...
Madoka: If something were to happen to me, please take care of Amy.
Homura: Kaname-san...?
Madoka: No no, I'm not saying that anything is going to happen.
Madoka: But it's just like Mami-san said,
Madoka: You never know what might happen during a witch battle.
Madoka: Sometime I feel kind of uneasy about it.

Which is the same as in the song. Madoka is fighting to protect the city because she was had the power and wanted to do so, but as a human being she can't help but being scared of dying and feeling lonely about that.

Now whom this song is addressed to is up for interpretation. This could very well be a goodbye to any of Madoka's family and friends, Homura included, and that is how I see it. This could also more specifically directed to Homura, depending on their closeness at the end of that month.

Spoiler for There is evidence HomuMado can become very, very close:

You could notice the tears on Madoka when she hugged Homura in TL2. This shows how Madoka really likes/loves Homura and worried about her to the point of involuntary crying. And then you see Homura also notices Madoka is shedding tears.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Hello guys, just want you post this video I found while surfing. Its Madoka's character song with lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEscuT0AKpU

Spoiler for Review of See you Tomorrow:

When I have heard of Madoka's character song while catching up at the enormous backlog of post around here. I thought it was a fluffy happy song especially with the Madoka's perky voice singing it. But, after listening at the song and knowing what the lyrics actually say... I feel like its a hidden knife twisting in my gut and making me feel a the tang of bitter more in the "bittersweet ending".

I don't know if its because I recently re-watched the last two episode. But, I feel that this song pertains to the post series Madoka and since I have nothing better to do I'll analyze the lyrics here.

Lyrics:

Saying, "See you later," I wave my hand
Forcing myself to smile, yet I'm feeling lonely...
At the intersection, there are traffic lights, cars honking far away
and the sound of strangers laughing together
Today, I walk alone, even if I'm used to going through this city
Somehow, for a moment
I feel like I'm tiny more than I usually do

Interpretation:
If this is Madoka's pov pre-series, it just confirms that Madoka have an understated inferiority complex and a natural people person who like being surrounded by her loved ones. Not an earth-shaking revelation, only it makes the events post-series about Madoka's fate more tragic.

If this is Madoka's pov post series, Madoka must be feeling ridiculously alone in her eternal fight with the witches. Being aware of everything and not being able to interact or be part of anything must be torture. I liken the feeling to the alone in a crowd feeling that we sometimes feel only ten times worse since Madoka isn't even part of reality.

And perhaps you're wondering why a powerful God can feel little about since Madoka is technically helping all mahou-shoujo for eternity. But, I think that we must remember that no one really remembers Madoka anymore. To have all that power and not being able to do anything about it and all the mahou shoujo she's seeing are destined to disappear. It is possible that Madoka might be feeling little or powerless from time to time.

Lyrics:
Saying, "See you later," I wave my hand
Cracking a smile, yet I'm feeling lonely
The truth is, I still have more to talk about
But with the words "See you later"
I say we'll meet again, but it's a lie
and with my usual smile, I say
"See you tomorrow"

Interpretation
Now, I've said it before but, I was re-watching the finale when I heard this song and I can't help but feel that this pertains to the goodbye scene between Madoka and Homura (the one in whatever place that is/limbo/space/etc). Watching that scene, the only thing that made it bearable is madoka's smiling face that she's at peace with her choice.

Now, notice the lyrics above, and the abrupt parting that she have with Homura whom she finally understand at that moment and will be parted the next moment. She must have a lot to say to her newly discovered "best friend" but, all she can say it that they will meet again.

Lyric:
I'm pretending that I'm used to being alone
But I'm not really that strong

Interpretation:
Notice that Madoka's fate in the finale is an eternity spent alone and though it looks like she's okay with it. Like the lyric she might just be pretending to be... sometimes she might miss companionship...

Lyrics:
Instead of "See you later"
I should've said, "I'll stay for a little longer"
I wanted and hoped that you would realize it
But with the words "See you later"
I lie to myself again
And hide my true feelings beneath my usual smile

Saying, "See you later," I wave my hand
Cracking a smile, yet I'm feeling lonely
The truth is, I still have more to talk about
But even my voice saying, "See you later"
is so near yet far from you that it can't reach you
So let me say this like I always do, just once more
"See you tomorrow"

Interpretation:

And now at this part, I'm wondering if I have yuri goggles at my face because no matter how impartial I'm trying to be for me this song is Madoka to Homura. The "you" is blatantly Homura in the song since she is the only one in the series that Madoka promised to meet in some nebulous timeframe which is not "later", but "tomorrow" - somewhere in the future.

And more reference about the parting in space that perhaps Madoka regretted or wished that instead of saying that they will meet again. She should have stayed longer with Homura now that they can finally have a heart to heart talk since she finally understand where Homura is coming from.

And with the stinger we know that Madoka can talk or be heard by Homura sometimes. Notice this lyric: But even my voice saying, "See you later" is so near yet far from you that it can't reach you. I think that this a blatant reference.

You know, my only problem with the Madoka/Homura pariring is the fact that it seems at times one sided on Homura's side. Though it can't really be faulted since Madoka barely knows Homura. But, if my interpretation is correct post series Madoka returns Homura's affections for her...

I should've said, "I'll stay for a little longer"
I wanted and hoped that you would realize it
But with the words "See you later"
I lie to myself again
And hide my true feelings beneath my usual smile

I bolded that one because it shows that there are affections personal in nature Madoka feels for Homura. Now, whether those affections are platonic in nature or romantic or agape is anyone guess. But after hearing this song... I think whatever the feelings between Homura and Madoka are deep on both sides. In fact, I would call them soul mates on some level considering they're the only one that can understand the other, literally. Only Madoka knows Homura's time shenigans and only Homura knows that Madoka existed and if I understand the ending right continues to fight for Madoka. It makes their dynamic compelling and really beautiful but it also adds another level of tragic. Not that it isn't tragic enough to begin with

Sigh.. if anyone wants to contest this interpretation feel free especially if you have fluffly ones

I always liked Connect as Madoka's anthem...

[rantuyetmai]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

I always liked Connect as Madoka's anthem...

Connect is Homura's song toward Madoka.

[kaigan]

regarding madoka's character song, it's entitled "mata ashita", right? she finally said it! to homu~ well that's what i heard in the new drama cd. but i'll wait for a translation and verify it.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by rantuyetmai

Connect is Homura's song toward Madoka.

Can be the other way round too...