Medaka Box [Manga]

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Yeah you're right, Nisio actually likes Medaka instead of hating her because he feels emasculated when reading a story with a strong female lead.

That's a pretty hilarious response, 1984 wants it back. Then again it's actually quite sad you think that...

I don't think I've seen anyone saying they outright hate Medaka, only some of her actions at times. I could be wrong since I don't read every post...

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Adan

"Medaka's better". I stopped reading there. Seriously, Zen represents me and anyone who refuses to spend his/her life being a Mary Sue with no emotions and no feelings and with 0 effort doing tasks.

lol, that doesn't even make any sense man. How exactly do you "refuse to be a Mary Sue". The fact that you're approaching natural ability as a matter of moral judgement is almost humorously irrational.

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol, that doesn't even make any sense man. How exactly do you "refuse to be a Mary Sue". The fact that you're approaching natural ability as a matter of moral judgement is almost humorously irrational.

It's probably the "no emotions and no feelings" part that is most bothersome to some people. That at least is a matter of moral judgement. I don't really believe that Medaka is supposed to be seen as a totally emotionless sociopath -- she did cry for Zenkichi a couple times -- but these last few chapters do hammer home the fact that Medaka is Abnormal with a capital A.

[sungreentakeo]

Originally Posted by MD84

It's probably the "no emotions and no feelings" part that is most bothersome to some people. That at least is a matter of moral judgement. I don't really believe that Medaka is supposed to be seen as a totally emotionless sociopath -- she did cry for Zenkichi a couple times -- but these last few chapters do hammer home the fact that Medaka is Abnormal with a capital A.

What I find interesting about that is did she cry for Zenkichi or cry because he was a platform for the ideas she liked? Why did she cry? Ajimu has proven with her scenario that Zenkichi does not have any inherent value or bond value to Medaka, instead Zenkichi's value to her was dependent on some factor external to himself (his ideas) which meant he was a means to an end for her.

When we see her express emotion, we like to interpret it through convention, but Medaka is abnormal. She's not only abnormal; she's the abnormal of abnormals. She's on an even more abnormal level. If it hadn't been for the early influence of Zenkichi, she would have only been recognizable as a nightmare to normal people. She's way different from us, and in many ways she can't come to a common understanding with us. Just because we see her have an emotion doesn't mean what is behind that emotion would be what we normally attribute to that emotion.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

I'm surprised there are so many super-defensive Madaka fans. Exaggerating what people say (i.e. 'Zenkichi is a God', blah blah blah)... Ignoring what everyone else is saying, which has more to do with the nature of the conflict than favoring one character over the other, and what the mangaka is showing and expositing. Tireless in their defense of what is supposed to be an intentional parody of perfection, literally the underlying conflict of the manga introduced from the first chapter. Ignoring the salient points of anyone who disagrees with them. Essentially demeaning another character because it is convenient for their agenda. It's even more confusing because the general consensus I've seen in polls is that most people support Zenkichi over Madaka by a roughly 20 to 1 ratio. It's like I'm stepped into some political spin zone defense when we're supposed to be discussing the merits of a story. You can't even have a discussion like that.

God, ok, you win, whatever. We don't mean anything we're saying and you can safely ignore it.

Dude, when you haven't even got a grasp yet of the motivations and conceptual position of Ajimu at this late point in the narrative, don't go around making authoritative statements about the "underlying conflict" or "parody of perfection" of the story like they can be taken as remotely absolute or objectively. The places with those "general polls" are probably some real cesspools of braindead discussion on the internet. For a more realistic reflection of reality, if you did not know this, be aware that in the popularity polls in Jump (i.e. polls reflecting the opinions of Medaka's actual target audience and native readers) Medaka has always been more popular than Zenkichi, by a factor of about 3:2. More importantly, like Westlo has stated, it should also be obvious that Nishio himself will like his own main character. If you are unfamiliar with the name Nishio Ishin, let me inform you now that he's an accomplished author whose works, aside from featuring an entertaining and highly developed consciousness of modern youth and popular culture, also regularly deal with notions of "genius" and complicated perspectives of apathetic sociopathy. Medaka Box is hardly the first or only work of Nishio's where his protagonist is an intellectual or philosophical challenge to the readers to empathise with an alienated or broken personality. In fact, probably the majority of Nishio Ishin's characters can be seen or described as broken like this, and "normal" characters like Zenkichi are in fact the exception (and practically never the protagonist). Until you can wrap your head around the idea that accordingly Medaka is supposed to be understood as human, not a parody, then you are correct, it really will be difficult to engage with you here in any sort of meaningful discussion.

Originally Posted by MD84

It's probably the "no emotions and no feelings" part that is most bothersome to some people. That at least is a matter of moral judgement. I don't really believe that Medaka is supposed to be seen as a totally emotionless sociopath -- she did cry for Zenkichi a couple times -- but these last few chapters do hammer home the fact that Medaka is Abnormal with a capital A.

It's not the recent portrayal of Medaka, really. It's the recent focus on Zen. From pretty much the start of the manga actually it has been clear just how abnormal Medaka really is--which is really not all that more than the vast majority of this manga's other characters. Medaka's abnormality is the same in effect as all the other abnormals' abnormalities, as a factor which separates her from other humans and makes it difficult to live a real life or form real relationships. Really, all of these Zen fans have never liked Medaka from the very beginning--they're simply pouring out of the woodworks now that Zenkichi is getting some real development in the story. Medaka's behaviour and personality itself, would still completely standard for her if someone were trying to work out her characterization from the very beginning.

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

What I find interesting about that is did she cry for Zenkichi or cry because he was a platform for the ideas she liked? Why did she cry? Ajimu has proven with her scenario that Zenkichi does not have any inherent value or bond value to Medaka, instead Zenkichi's value to her was dependent on some factor external to himself (his ideas) which meant he was a means to an end for her.

When we see her express emotion, we like to interpret it through convention, but Medaka is abnormal. She's not only abnormal; she's the abnormal of abnormals. She's on an even more abnormal level. If it hadn't been for the early influence of Zenkichi, she would have only been recognizable as a nightmare to normal people. She's way different from us, and in many ways she can't come to a common understanding with us. Just because we see her have an emotion doesn't mean what is behind that emotion would be what we normally attribute to that emotion.

Medaka used to like Zen, so she cried because she cared for him. Zenkichi's "inherent value" to Medaka, aside from the ideas he gave her, was the fact that he used to be her only "friend" (at least, insofar as he was the only one who was willing to generally hang around with her). As the number of people surrounding Medaka increased, naturally this part of Zen's value would vanish. Medaka no longer has to merely look for people who will hang around with her at all--now, she has met enough people that she can afford caring about her real bonds and relationships.

Simply put, the difference between Medaka's feelings then and her feelings now is in the fact that Zenkichi is no longer the only person hanging around her. She cared about Zenkichi then, because if he died it'd have meant she'd be alone. Zenkichi's lack of value to her now is as such his own fault because he allowed their relationship to coast along on that exclusivity. Because becoming accepted by other people was Medaka's goal, it was inevitable that Zenkichi could not always be the one and only person around her. It's not too late, however, for Zenkichi and Medaka to create a real bond. After seeing his behaviour after the Treasure Hunt, Medaka has discarded all of her previous assumptions about Zenkichi's closeness to her and what his ideas have done for her, erasing the last of his previous value. However, if Zenkichi gives his all to creating a real bond with Medaka now, there's no reason for Medaka not to respond (because that is still what she is looking for). In fact, Medaka's desire for a real bond with Zenkichi is the real meaning behind her encouragement of him taking a stand as a person opposing her and her willingness to see him grow.

[summers]

Originally Posted by [HearT]

Holy Crap!! I don't touch this thread for a couple of weeks and it spreads like wild fire!!!!! just a few months ago there was like 6 posts in a week!!! XD lol

Spoiler for @spoil:

*super quick glance since I have school D: so just a super quick summary* looks interesting :3 there appears to be more Jump vs SQ bashing XD Kei pulls out a boomerang and uses that to fight, the fight continues in the next issue as well

What the Author did was pretty tricky.
This manga started out with a character driven school life manga and they had contest challenges.
Then it became a battle manga, but the catch was that the superpowers were based of personality traits making the characters development and plot super important. Now it has gone back to the start. The clock test was a contest challenge with some skirmishes mixed in.
Now all we have been talking about is analyzing Zen and medaka and others characters,motivations, etc.
Not, who is stronger, who beats who,who will fight who. If people want to do that they have to talk about plot and characters.

This author is a boss. He got to write the manga he wanted after all.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by summers

This author is a boss. He got to write the manga he wanted after all.

Of course brother, he's fucking NisioIsin

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Dude, when you haven't even got a grasp yet of the motivations and conceptual position of Ajimu at this late point in the narrative, don't go around making authoritative statements about the "underlying conflict" or "parody of perfection" of the story like they can be taken as remotely absolute or objectively. The places with those "general polls" are probably some real cesspools of braindead discussion on the internet. For a more realistic reflection of reality, if you did not know this, be aware that in the popularity polls in Jump (i.e. polls reflecting the opinions of Medaka's actual target audience and native readers) Medaka has always been more popular than Zenkichi, by a factor of about 3:2. More importantly, like Westlo has stated, it should also be obvious that Nishio himself will like his own main character. If you are unfamiliar with the name Nishio Ishin, let me inform you now that he's an accomplished author whose works, aside from featuring an entertaining and highly developed consciousness of modern youth and popular culture, also regularly deal with notions of "genius" and complicated perspectives of apathetic sociopathy. Medaka Box is hardly the first or only work of Nishio's where his protagonist is an intellectual or philosophical challenge to empathise with an intensely alienated or broken personality. Until you can wrap your head around the idea that Medaka is supposed to be understood as human, not a parody, then you are correct, it really will be difficult to engage with you here in any sort of meaningful discussion.



It's not the recent portrayal of Medaka, really. It's the recent focus on Zen. From pretty much the start of the manga actually it has been clear just how abnormal Medaka really is--which is really not all that more than the vast majority of this manga's other characters. Medaka's abnormality is the same in effect as all the other abnormals' abnormalities, as a factor which separates her from other humans and makes it difficult to live a real life or form real relationships. Really, all of these Zen fans have never liked Medaka from the very beginning--they're simply pouring out of the woodworks now that Zenkichi is getting some real development in the story. Medaka's behaviour and personality itself, would still completely standard for her if someone were trying to work out her characterization from the very beginning.



Medaka used to like Zen, so she cried because she cared for him. Zenkichi's "inherent value" to Medaka, aside from the ideas he gave her, was the fact that he used to be her only "friend" (at least, insofar as he was the only one who was willing to generally hang around with her). As the number of people surrounding Medaka increased, naturally this part of Zen's value would vanish. Medaka no longer has to merely look for people who will hang around with her at all--now, she has met enough people that she can afford caring about her real bonds and relationships.

Simply put, the difference between Medaka's feelings then and her feelings now is in the fact that Zenkichi is no longer the only person hanging around her. She cared about Zenkichi then, because if he died it'd have meant she'd be alone. Zenkichi's lack of value to her now is his own fault because he coasted along on that exclusivity of their relationship and never bothered to create a real bond. It's not too late, however, because if Zenkichi gives his all to creating a real bond with her now, there's no reason for Medaka not to respond (and in fact, this is the meaning behind Medaka's encouragement of Zen to stand against her and desire for his growth).

The Zen fans are pouring out of the woodwork because Medaka beat him to a bloody pulp, echoing Kumagawa's actions when he was the main villain (Akune even pointed it out). All speculation on motivations aside, that was clearly meant to be seen as something horrible, if Kikaijima's reaction is anything to go by. Medaka may have honestly done it for his own good, but does that really excuse giving him a beatdown and telling him he sucked?

Zenkichi's value to Medaka was that he was a "Normal" person who wanted to hang out with her without owing her anything. The funny thing is, he still is the only "Normal" person who wants to hang out with her -- the five girls that devalued him are only there because Ajimu sent them in the first place.

Zenkichi never bothered to create a real bond because he thought he and Medaka already had one. It's an understandable mistake -- he was two when their pseudo-relationship started and she never gave him a reason to doubt their bond until chapter 115. The problem is on both ends -- she's a messed up Abnormal who only has an identity based on a messiah complex that a two-year old unwittingly imparted on her, and he in many ways is still that two-year old boy with a hopeless irrational crush.

Thing is, Zenkichi and Medaka both want a real bond. It's just that both realize that the only relationship Medaka recognizes as real is the kind between worthy adversaries. Medaka even told Kikaijima that she should have made Zenkichi her enemy from the start. It's the shonen convention of "defeated foes becoming friends and love interests", taken to an extreme like so many other shonen conventions in Medaka Box.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by MD84

The Zen fans are pouring out of the woodwork because Medaka beat him to a bloody pulp, echoing Kumagawa's actions when he was the main villain (Akune even pointed it out). All speculation on motivations aside, that was clearly meant to be seen as something horrible, if Kikaijima's reaction is anything to go by. Medaka may have honestly done it for his own good, but does that really excuse giving him a beatdown and telling him he sucked?

Zenkichi's value to Medaka was that he was a "Normal" person who wanted to hang out with her without owing her anything. The funny thing is, he still is the only "Normal" person who wants to hang out with her -- the five girls that devalued him are only there because Ajimu sent them in the first place.

Zenkichi never bothered to create a real bond because he thought he and Medaka already had one. It's an understandable mistake -- he was two when their pseudo-relationship started and she never gave him a reason to doubt their bond until chapter 115. The problem is on both ends -- she's a messed up Abnormal who only has an identity based on a messiah complex that a two-year old unwittingly imparted on her, and he in many ways is still that two-year old boy with a hopeless irrational crush.

Thing is, Zenkichi and Medaka both want a real bond. It's just that both realize that the only relationship Medaka recognizes as real is the kind between worthy adversaries. Medaka even told Kikaijima that she should have made Zenkichi her enemy from the start. It's the shonen convention of "defeated foes becoming friends and love interests", taken to an extreme like so many other shonen conventions in Medaka Box.

Wait, that's not a shonen convention. Defeat friends yes, love interests no. It's rare for a main character to have a serious battle with his/her love interest before they properly get together. They may not but be on the same side intially or even really like each other but they rarely if ever seriousy confront each other.

Only real times where they confront each other is long after their relationship is established and generally it's due to bralin washing or the villain physically forcing them, and on a rare occasion to protect someone else e.g blackmail.

[sungreentakeo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Dude, when you haven't even got a grasp yet of the motivations and conceptual position of Ajimu at this late point in the narrative, don't go around making authoritative statements about the "underlying conflict" or "parody of perfection" of the story like they can be taken as remotely absolute or objectively.

Medaka is supposed to be exaggerated perfection, or perhaps the exaggerated perfectionist. I can't even see how you can argue against this. Zenkichi had an issue with this perfectionism and talked on it within the first chapter. We are supposed to realize this. That's why he talked about it. He suggested that there was a very subtle issue, a problem with Medaka... And that problem keeps subtly coming up just like it has in recent chapters. This is supposed to be in contrast to the shining radiance of what she does right.

The manga then went on to show how she's awesome and unbeatable while entertaining the shounen jump demographic which is looking for larger than life heroes.

Now comes the really interesting part, at least the part I'm hoping for.. The deconstruction!

As for Ajimu, yeah, I have no idea what she's up to. Quite frankly, it's going to be awesome.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The places with those "general polls" are probably some real cesspools of braindead discussion on the internet. For a more realistic reflection of reality, if you did not know this, be aware that in the popularity polls in Jump (i.e. polls reflecting the opinions of Medaka's actual target audience and native readers) Medaka has always been more popular than Zenkichi, by a factor of about 3:2.

Actually she's ranked even higher than that sometimes if I recall. That is not the issue of this current conflict. The issue is whether or not she did something wrong HERE. The issue is, "Does this shock us and change our perception of her? Does this enlighten us more to her true nature?" Did she do something wrong? Most people recognize that she did, because she did something almost spuriously heartless. And that's really interesting.

I'm waiting in anticipatory glee for her to come back and do something nearly as perception shattering as killing someone because like she would have with Unzen if the council hadn't stopped her. I want that drama; I want that conflict. It would be beautiful, thrilling and entertaining. I want to get past this outer shell of the 'perfect heroine' and get into the meat of what is really going on here.

You keep on coloring people as if they care about the same things they do. The reason why the majority of people are against Medaka in this is because of what happened, not because she beat up on their favorite character. That's why I'm tired of even having to read posts by hardcore Medaka fans. I'm looking for interesting things. A partially sociopathic Medaka who attempts to be good but is simply lacking the humanity is actually far more INTERESTING. I actually find her more interesting when she's wrong, because she's supposed to be always right! Every time someone starts a discussion on this topic, some Medaka-fan comes out and starts complaining that their favorite godlike character is being criticized. That is not interesting, just annoying.

And the braindead comment you made about Zen fans? Please.... That's why the Medaka-fans are turning me off so much.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

More importantly, like Westlo has stated, it should also be obvious that Nishio himself will like his own main character.

I like writing and I love dungeon-mastering too. You know who my favorite characters are? The villains. The flawed people. The interestingly odd people. The people I would even normally have issues with. Of course he loves his creation; it's a beautiful idea. But that doesn't mean he approves of her or there is some dichotomy like that, entirely the opposite! It's a message within a discourse!

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If you are unfamiliar with the name Nishio Ishin, let me inform you now that he's an accomplished author whose works, aside from featuring an entertaining and highly developed consciousness of modern youth and popular culture, also regularly deal with notions of "genius" and complicated perspectives of apathetic sociopathy.

Bakemonogatari was like candy to me. Ever since, I will not forget that man's name. I just say mangaka because it means I can communicate with people who don't know who the author of this manga is.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka Box is hardly the first or only work of Nishio's where his protagonist is an intellectual or philosophical challenge to the readers to empathise with an alienated or broken personality. In fact, probably the majority of Nishio Ishin's characters can be seen or described as broken like this, and "normal" characters like Zenkichi are in fact the exception (and practically never the protagonist). Until you can wrap your head around the idea that accordingly Medaka is supposed to be understood as human, not a parody, then you are correct, it really will be difficult to engage with you here in any sort of meaningful discussion.

On this, I'm starting to think that there is a bit of a communication problem going on here. I have never said that I didn't approve of Medaka as a character in this story. I have said over and over why she was wrong in this instance, and what she was dismissing. I have talked about this interesting parts of the event and what we're supposed to pull out of this. It's a parody because it's done in a satirical matter. Medaka does things that are over the top and then you have to pull out what weird subtle thing is missing here or rather what she is missing. Her exaggerated actions scream parody all over the place.

Someone who loves everyone, who actually loves no one specifically.
Someone who always believes in herself and believes in others, yet walks all over other people.
Someone who is always right, but who pushes her position on others.
Someone who believes that she is always wrong, but who has never been wrong.
Someone who believes nothing is impossible for anyone, but in reality that only applies to herself.
Someone who never needs or expects any loyalty, so she can never appreciate the value of loyalty or caring towards.
Someone who values everyone equally, so that being her friend or ally means nothing.

A person who strongly believes in the very best ideals, but messes them up or takes them too far in subtle ways because at some level she really is someone who can't form bonds with other people, at least partially a sociopath due to either her inability to have a genuine common ground with other people or because of something genuinely lacking (or perhaps having too much of something else) in herself.

This is glorious. This is ingenious. This is interesting.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

It's not the recent portrayal of Medaka, really. It's the recent focus on Zen. From pretty much the start of the manga actually it has been clear just how abnormal Medaka really is--which is really not all that more than the vast majority of this manga's other characters. Medaka's abnormality is the same in effect as all the other abnormals' abnormalities, as a factor which separates her from other humans and makes it difficult to live a real life or form real relationships. Really, all of these Zen fans have never liked Medaka from the very beginning--they're simply pouring out of the woodworks now that Zenkichi is getting some real development in the story. Medaka's behaviour and personality itself, would still completely standard for her if someone were trying to work out her characterization from the very beginning.

They're pouring out the woodworks as you say, mostly because of what just happened. Many people changed their opinions out of empathy. They formed a rapport with Zen (which the male readers are intended to do) and just as much as they were cheering on his relationship with Medaka, they felt the betrayal at him being mistreated and thrown away like trash. If you're looking to a comparison to Bakemonogatari, fans would have acted the same way if Senjougahara had treated Araragi in the same way. That event was intended to evoke those emotions!

On a side note, I had been tempted to say something about all these 'Medaka fans pouring out of the woodworks' earlier in my response, but I thought that would be far too marginalizing and insulting. I see that you had no such restraint.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka used to like Zen, so she cried because she cared for him. Zenkichi's "inherent value" to Medaka, aside from the ideas he gave her, was the fact that he used to be her only "friend" (at least, insofar as he was the only one who was willing to generally hang around with her). As the number of people surrounding Medaka increased, naturally this part of Zen's value would vanish. Medaka no longer has to merely look for people who will hang around with her at all--now, she has met enough people that she can afford caring about her real bonds and relationships.

Medaka doesn't have any friends. She can't have any friends. She's just simply too different to give and receive genuineness from anyone. Honestly, regardless of what Unzen said about her being lonely, she doesn't need any. She's never needed anyone. She's too strong for that. She's the epitome of strong. She's not just physically strong; she's mentally strong; she's emotionally strong. She doesn't have that 'neediness'.

Zenkichi is not like everybody else. He helped her in the most significant way that anybody has ever been able to help her. He's spent the majority of 13 years with her. That's the vast majority of their lives. They're only 15! That's 13 out of 15 years! It's hard to display time like that and its significance in the medium of a manga, but that's really really significant. He's always loved and supported her. Then she's like, well, he's not that great anymore because he's having a crisis and I have other people now.. So, uh, yeah trash him. That's heartless. That's lacking loyalty or persistence. That's lacking acknowledge for what he's done and what his intentions have been. That's lacking the context of their history. And, that's the point.

There just something so fundamentally wrong in what she did and her attitude that I shouldn't even have to explain it.

And there's another issue. She's never really helped him. He doesn't have a debt to her. We could argue that he helped her, but not the other way around. He has been, as Munakata called it, her sacrifice. She kept him around, and did her best to make him stay around, until she didn't need him anymore. His life was not better or easier because he was around her, much the opposite.

I feel like I'm trying to explain the basics here of human relationships. I shouldn't have to point this out. Nishio, through Kikajima, pointed this out. Nishio, through the children with flowers on the first page of 118, and the battered Zenkichi immediately on the next page pointed this out. Nishio through Munakata, describing how Zenkichi was different to the rest of Medaka's entourage, pointed this out.

Medaka fans are ignoring this. This is not subtle or ambiguous. This is being yelled in our faces.

As for bonds, I've mentioned this earlier. Medaka has no bonds. She's never had any bonds. She cannot have any bonds. Where I'm hoping Nishio goes with this is for Zenkichi to actually create a genuine bond with her by becoming her peer. But at the same time, that would require huge character changes in Medaka and I have no idea what the fallout from that would be.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Simply put, the difference between Medaka's feelings then and her feelings now is in the fact that Zenkichi is no longer the only person hanging around her. She cared about Zenkichi then, because if he died it'd have meant she'd be alone. Zenkichi's lack of value to her now is as such his own fault because he allowed their relationship to coast along on that exclusivity. Because becoming accepted by other people was Medaka's goal, it was inevitable that Zenkichi could not always be the one and only person around her. It's not too late, however, for Zenkichi and Medaka to create a real bond. After seeing his behaviour after the Treasure Hunt, Medaka has discarded all of her previous assumptions about Zenkichi's closeness to her and what his ideas have done for her, erasing the last of his previous value. However, if Zenkichi gives his all to creating a real bond with Medaka now, there's no reason for Medaka not to respond (because that is still what she is looking for). In fact, Medaka's desire for a real bond with Zenkichi is the real meaning behind her encouragement of him taking a stand as a person opposing her and her willingness to see him grow.

Medaka didn't care if she was alone or not. She's not that needy. She doesn't need people. In a very real way, part of her dramatic quality is that she's still alone even surrounded by people.

The value Medaka used to see in Zenkichi is more abnormal. It had more to do with how he was an example of some ideal. The things that actually make him more unique, such as his love and loyalty towards Medaka, the time that he's shared with her and how he genuinely cares for other people even sometimes over himself.... Those qualities did not enter into her evaluation. She doesn't even understand them. That's something we've attributed to her via our interpretations of her actions that were never really there.

She didn't even want to help him when he was mentally weak. She was just annoyed. That's pretty heartless. She didn't hit him from behind that first time because she was trying to reform him. She just did that because she wanted to and she didn't feel hesitant about hurting him.

Zenkichi during that time was dealing with a personal crisis, set off by the parasite eyes. He was trying to prove to himself that he could overcome something with effort, with 'normalness', when he'd just lost what make him unique in comparison to all the other 'special' people; Essentially, he'd just lost one of the cornerstones of his world.... His reliance on effort and being normal. If he failed, he used to have something to still define him.

Which brings something out that may give more insight into Medaka's character, Zenkichi at that time was acting emotionally weak. Also, he didn't know everything that was going on. He was focused on his own internal emotional struggle. At that time, a friend would have tried to support him, especially a friend who had practically been handfasted to him for 13 years. She wasn't thinking about him. She was thinking about his value to her, when he needed someone to understand him. It was Ajimu that came to his rescue in her own strange way when Medaka tossed him in the wastebasket.

Medaka's family is not special to her. Medaka's friends are not special to her. Her loyal friend who should be closer to her than family and she should be indebted to is not special to her. There is something wrong about this, something that clashes with our humanity.

Medaka and Zenkichi have never understood each other. My pet theory is that they attribute something in themselves to the other person, which actually isn't the same thing at all. Zenkichi says early on that Medaka loves all of humanity like her family. Later Zenkichi says that he always supports his friends. Zenkichi equates Medaka's ideal to the loyalty and caring he has, but Medaka has no such loyalty to anyone. Everyone is equal. No one is special. Friends and enemies are alike. Even her family isn't special to her. Medaka has no bonds. In the same way, Medaka equates Zenkichi's caring with Medaka's ideals. And these two things are not the same thing whatsoever.

And then they say ironically that they both understand each other the best when they don't understand each other at all.

Even though they can often look the same, caring does not equal ideals. In fact, they may very well be polar opposites. They come from different worlds; they speak different languages. In many cases, I'm sure Zenkichi would support his friends even if they were wrong, but Medaka has no loyalty to anyone, just to her ideal of 'people'. Medaka would betray her friends as quickly as she'd support her enemies. Zenkichi would factor in his relationships to his friends.

About Medaka wanting to form a genuine bond with Zenkichi, I can't say at this point. I don't think she even considers it a possibility, really. Her behaviors seem to suggest indifference to him being unique (different) in any way, which is a cornerstone of one of the ideals that she talks about. To her, it would be impossible for him, much less anybody else, to become 'unique' or 'special' to her. In fact, it might be appropriate to say that she denies the possible existence of such a thing.

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Wait, that's not a shonen convention. Defeat friends yes, love interests no. It's rare for a main character to have a serious battle with his/her love interest before they properly get together. They may not but be on the same side intially or even really like each other but they rarely if ever seriousy confront each other.

Only real times where they confront each other is long after their relationship is established and generally it's due to bralin washing or the villain physically forcing them, and on a rare occasion to protect someone else e.g blackmail.

Whoops. Yeah, that's more of a western comics thing, ala Batman and Catwoman.

[ACE2001]

Man...I haven't seen so many spoiler tags in one thread in my life! Lol! Sucks that I have to wait to comment on chpt. 120. I think its good that Ajimu and Zen are somewhat combining forces to take Medaka down. I'm just tired of her flawless personality and her perfectionist of I can do anything attitude. For me at least, its a little annoying. I want to see Medaka get seriously challenged this time around and...gasp, LOSE!!! Lol!

Throughout 120 chapters of the manga, there hasn't been one instance were it was thought like, damn, Medaka is in trouble here. It's just boring to me as I already know that she'll pull through with her crazy a$$ abilities and what not. I'm really looking forward to see her get physically and mentally beat down.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by ACE2001

Man...I haven't seen so many spoiler tags in one thread in my life! Lol! Sucks that I have to wait to comment on chpt. 120. I think its good that Ajimu and Zen are somewhat combining forces to take Medaka down. I'm just tired of her flawless personality and her perfectionist of I can do anything attitude. For me at least, its a little annoying. I want to see Medaka get seriously challenged this time around and...gasp, LOSE!!! Lol!

Throughout 120 chapters of the manga, there hasn't been one instance were it was thought like, damn, Medaka is in trouble here. It's just boring to me as I already know that she'll pull through with her crazy a$$ abilities and what not. I'm really looking forward to see her get physically and mentally beat down.

Ah ah ah don't worry you're not the only who feel that way. I really hope she will be beat by Zen !

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

Medaka is supposed to be exaggerated perfection, or perhaps the exaggerated perfectionist. I can't even see how you can argue against this. Zenkichi had an issue with this perfectionism and talked on it within the first chapter. We are supposed to realize this. That's why he talked about it. He suggested that there was a very subtle issue, a problem with Medaka... And that problem keeps subtly coming up just like it has in recent chapters. This is supposed to be in contrast to the shining radiance of what she does right.

The manga then went on to show how she's awesome and unbeatable while entertaining the shounen jump demographic which is looking for larger than life heroes.

Now comes the really interesting part, at least the part I'm hoping for.. The deconstruction!

As for Ajimu, yeah, I have no idea what she's up to. Quite frankly, it's going to be awesome.

Yes, Medaka is exceptionally perfect or whatever, the point of that, as has been stated so many times, is that that perfection of hers make it hard for her to interact with people, because they're all either afraid of her, or worshipping her like a god. No one is arguing about Medaka being perfect or whatever, what's annoying is when people believe that because she's like that, everything must be Medaka's fault.

Actually she's ranked even higher than that sometimes if I recall. That is not the issue of this current conflict. The issue is whether or not she did something wrong HERE. The issue is, "Does this shock us and change our perception of her? Does this enlighten us more to her true nature?" Did she do something wrong? Most people recognize that she did, because she did something almost spuriously heartless. And that's really interesting.

It's funny, people are all up in arms about Medaka being wrong, yet people ignore the fact that Zen is much more wrong in this instance than she is. Putting aside their fight, in which I think they're both equally wrong but that's another matter, Zen is consciously working with the Flask Plan, the same Flask Plan that was planning to use the student body as lab rats, and was perfectly OK with their experiment killing most of the students. What's really interesting about Zen fans is that they don't care about that.

I'm waiting in anticipatory glee for her to come back and do something nearly as perception shattering as killing someone because like she would have with Unzen if the council hadn't stopped her. I want that drama; I want that conflict. It would be beautiful, thrilling and entertaining. I want to get past this outer shell of the 'perfect heroine' and get into the meat of what is really going on here.

We already got behind that shell, what's behind that shell as Unzen says, is just a plain lonely girl. Personally, what I hope to see out of this arc is more about that side of her.

You keep on coloring people as if they care about the same things they do. The reason why the majority of people are against Medaka in this is because of what happened, not because she beat up on their favorite character. That's why I'm tired of even having to read posts by hardcore Medaka fans. I'm looking for interesting things. A partially sociopathic Medaka who attempts to be good but is simply lacking the humanity is actually far more INTERESTING. I actually find her more interesting when she's wrong, because she's supposed to be always right! Every time someone starts a discussion on this topic, some Medaka-fan comes out and starts complaining that their favorite godlike character is being criticized. That is not interesting, just annoying.

And the braindead comment you made about Zen fans? Please.... That's why the Medaka-fans are turning me off so much.

What's annoying about the comments from hardcore Zen fans is that they seem to want to push all the issues with Zen and Medaka's relationship onto Medaka,as if it's all her fault. She has some of the blame but Zen has to shoulder an equal amount of blame. Yet Zen fans feel that everything is all Medaka's fault, most Medaka fans realize Medaka's faults which is something I can't say most Zen fans realize about Zen.

A person who strongly believes in the very best ideals, but messes them up or takes them too far in subtle ways because at some level she really is someone who can't form bonds with other people, at least partially a sociopath due to either her inability to have a genuine common ground with other people or because of something genuinely lacking (or perhaps having too much of something else) in herself.

This is glorious. This is ingenious. This is interesting.

See, now this is interesting here. It's a difference of opinion. You believe that Medaka is a sociopath that can't forms bonds with people. But a bond with someone is a two way street. I believe that she's a lonely girl who no one tried to form a bond with, especially Zenkichi, who by his own admission, never tried.

They're pouring out the woodworks as you say, mostly because of what just happened. Many people changed their opinions out of empathy. They formed a rapport with Zen (which the male readers are intended to do) and just as much as they were cheering on his relationship with Medaka, they felt the betrayal at him being mistreated and thrown away like trash. If you're looking to a comparison to Bakemonogatari, fans would have acted the same way if Senjougahara had treated Araragi in the same way. That event was intended to evoke those emotions!

I wish I had your faith in people. Personally, in my experience, these people hated her from the beginning of the manga, the same ones that were constantly around the place bitching when they thought the manga would get cancelled, but hey, people are entitled to their beliefs.

On a side note, I had been tempted to say something about all these 'Medaka fans pouring out of the woodworks' earlier in my response, but I thought that would be far too marginalizing and insulting. I see that you had no such restraint.

So you thought it would be marginalizing and insulting to mention, so you say you're not going to mention it. How passive-aggressive.

Medaka doesn't have any friends. She can't have any friends. She's just simply too different to give and receive genuineness from anyone. Honestly, regardless of what Unzen said about her being lonely, she doesn't need any. She's never needed anyone. She's too strong for that. She's the epitome of strong. She's not just physically strong; she's mentally strong; she's emotionally strong. She doesn't have that 'neediness'.

Now see, I can only wonder how you can think like that, I'm just thankful that I don't think like you.

It's exactly because she's different that she needs friends, more than a normal person does. It's the tragedy of her life that she's doesn't have any. Nobody is too strong for friends, everybody needs someone else, regardless of strength

Zenkichi is not like everybody else. He helped her in the most significant way that anybody has ever been able to help her. He's spent the majority of 13 years with her. That's the vast majority of their lives. They're only 15! That's 13 out of 15 years! It's hard to display time like that and its significance in the medium of a manga, but that's really really significant. He's always loved and supported her. Then she's like, well, he's not that great anymore because he's having a crisis and I have other people now.. So, uh, yeah trash him. That's heartless. That's lacking loyalty or persistence. That's lacking acknowledge for what he's done and what his intentions have been. That's lacking the context of their history. And, that's the point.

There just something so fundamentally wrong in what she did and her attitude that I shouldn't even have to explain it.

Let's flip the scrip, shall we? Zenkichi has known Medaka for 13 years,and he says that he's her friend and that he cares about her, yet by his own admission, he never once even attempted to try to understand her. Zenkichi is supposed to be normal, what kind of normal person hangs around with someone for all that time yet never tries to understand her and then claims he cares about her. What does he care about then? If it wasn't obvious that Zen does care about her, I'd seriously wonder about that, as it is, I just think he has some serious self-esteem issues.

There's something so fundamentally wrong with that, I shouldn't have to explain.

And there's another issue. She's never really helped him. He doesn't have a debt to her. We could argue that he helped her, but not the other way around. He has been, as Munakata called it, her sacrifice. She kept him around, and did her best to make him stay around, until she didn't need him anymore. His life was not better or easier because he was around her, much the opposite.

Now that's plain silly. She didn't have a gun to his neck forcing him to spend time around her and it isn't as if she can't take a hint. She asked both Unzen and Shiranui to be her vice president, both refused, and she left them alone. Zen could have done the same and she would have left him alone as well. He was around because he wanted to be.

I feel like I'm trying to explain the basics here of human relationships. I shouldn't have to point this out. Nishio, through Kikajima, pointed this out.

Nisio, through Kikajima pointed out how warped Zen's perspective of Medaka was, when she asked him about Medaka not knowing about amusement parks, he said she has no need to know about them. Nisio, through Zen's own mother, pointed out how messed up their relationship is.

Medaka fans are ignoring this. This is not subtle or ambiguous. This is being yelled in our faces.

Medaka fans aren't ignoring that, we're well aware. What Zenkichi fans are ignoring is that fact that Zenkichi isn't perfect, or a completely innocent victim of cruel, cruel Medaka. In a very real way, Medaka is Zenkichi's victim just as much as he is hers.

As for bonds, I've mentioned this earlier. Medaka has no bonds. She's never had any bonds. She cannot have any bonds. Where I'm hoping Nishio goes with this is for Zenkichi to actually create a genuine bond with her by becoming her peer.

Medaka has no bonds because no one has made any with her, certainly not Zenkichi. I'm quite sure she can have bonds just like everyone else. What I hpe is that Zenkichi actually creates one.

Medaka didn't care if she was alone or not. She's not that needy. She doesn't need people. In a very real way, part of her dramatic quality is that she's still alone even surrounded by people.

Again, you're pulling this out of somewhere. Everyone is needy to some extent, everyone needs someone in some way. Part of Medaka's character is that she's alone surrounded by people because people want nothing to do with

The value Medaka used to see in Zenkichi is more abnormal. It had more to do with how he was an example of some ideal. The things that actually make him more unique, such as his love and loyalty towards Medaka, the time that he's shared with her and how he genuinely cares for other people even sometimes over himself.... Those do not enter into her evaluation. She doesn't even understand them. That's something we've attributed to her via our interpretations of her actions that were never really there.

I don't deny that Medaka valued Zen as a part of some ideal, but so does Zen, he cares about her, but not about the real her, which he, again I'll reiterate by his own admission, never tried to understand. What he cares about must be about what she is, not who she is. Who she is, has nothing to do with him. He's more interested in being her pitbull than her friend.

She didn't even want to help him when he was mentally weak. She was just annoyed. That's pretty heartless. She didn't hit him from behind that first time because she was trying to reform him. She just did that because she wanted to and she didn't feel hesitant about hurting him.

Now that's plain garbage, unfortunately it's garbage I've seen all over the place. She didn't just hit from behind instantly like that, she very nicely told him that the event was over and it was time to go, and he responded by slandering somebody, after which point she hit him on the back of the head and told him to clean up. As a certain man once said 'A slap to the face is an insult, a slap to the back of the head is a wake up call' That's all it was, a wake up call after what he said, which quite frankly he deserved.

Zenkichi during that time was dealing with a personal crisis, set off by the parasite eyes. He was trying to prove to himself that he could overcome something with effort, with 'normalness', when he'd just lost what make him unique in comparison to all the other 'special' people; Essentially, he'd just lost one of the cornerstones of his world.... His reliance on effort and being normal. If he failed, he used to have something to still define him.

Rubbish. He was trying to prove he was better than everybody else. He was trying to be special, not normal. A normal person would have tried to work together, which is what everyone else did, but apparently that was too demeaning for him.

Which brings something out that may give more insight into Medaka's character, Zenkichi at that time was acting emotionally weak. Also, he didn't know everything that was going on. He was focused on his own internal emotional struggle. At that time, a friend would have tried to support him, especially a friend who had practically been handfasted to him for 13 years. She wasn't thinking about him. She was thinking about his value to her, when he did actually need someone to understand him. It was Ajimu that came to the rescue in her own strange way when Medaka tossed him in the wastebasket.

And what was Zenkichi thinking about then, pray tell? He was thinking about proving how he was better than everybody else, and then when that didn't work, he was thinking about blaming other people for his problems. Medaka may have made a mistake there, but so did he. But of course, in the minds of Zen fans, the great Hitoyoshi can do no wrong.

Medaka's family is not special to her

We don't know about Medaka's dad, but she does care about her sister, in fact she asked her sister to be her comrade, something everyone was surprised about because it's not her style. She still hangs about her brother, despite him being a degenerate, most people would disown.

Medaka's friends are not special to her. Her loyal friend who should be closer to her than family and she should be indebted to is not special to her. There is something wrong about this, something that clashes with our humanity.

She doesn't have any friends. No one has ever tried to be her friend, certainly not Zen. In fact, the rest of the student council are probably closer to her than him. What clashes with my humanity is someone being around someone for 13 years and yet not once trying to understand them, despite being normal.

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Medaka fans aren't ignoring that, we're well aware. What Zenkichi fans are ignoring is that fact that Zenkichi isn't perfect, or a completely innocent victim of cruel, cruel Medaka. In a very real way, Medaka is Zenkichi's victim just as much as he is hers.

This statement interests me, please elaborate how Medaka is Zen's victim? Based on the material that has been presented he has been dragged into whatever activities she wanted to do, so I suppose him not forcing her to do normal activities might be making her a victim but that seeems to be a stretch. If that is the case the most he could be considered guilty of is inaction by not prompting her to live a normal life instead of the abnormal one she pursued under her own initiative. How exactly has Zen abused Medaka?

[Lummie]

You guys sure love to write huge walls of text xD (In a positive sense of course)

Originally Posted by Endscape

We already got behind that shell, what's behind that shell as Unzen says, is just a plain lonely girl. Personally, what I hope to see out of this arc is more about that side of her.

Agreed. It's ironic that Unzen was the first person to figure this much from her in such a short fight and not someone close to her. It'll be interesting to go deeper into that side of her and especially if it has any connection to the "killed father" card that Najimi mentioned.

[Soji]

The problem with Zen and it seems ,many have not realized this, is still like he was at age of 2.
Obviously, I do not say in the literally sense, but in character and personality, and remained as it was (maybe a bit more seriously).
I mean, many in the manga have referred to thisthing and one of those that mentioned this was medaka itself.
It seems that Najimi in addition to complete what she wants with the Flank plan ,she want also make Zen to do the growth / change that he has not done so far in these 13 years.
And after I realised this,I wonder how much Zen will change after the flank plan and how much his feelings will change accordingly on this.

[telamont]

I'm curious... why is everyone taking Ajimu's words as absolute gospel? Damn, but she's good (when a manga character can brainwash even the readers... )

Let's look at it another way shall we? I think the problem is everyone is applying real world standards to a shonen manga. Sure, beating someone bloody is a bad thing in the real world, but remember that this is a shonen manga, where you can get beaten bloody and be perfectly fine an hour later, and the entire cast practically knows they're in a shonen manga at this point.

And in a shonen manga:

Defeat = Friendship.
Beating each other bloody = "Bonding"/Speaking through fists.
Coming at an opponent with everything you have = Sign of respect.

So in that light, when faced with Zenkichi's declaration, Medaka was just being consistent with her "shonen main character taken up to eleven" portrayal and paid Zenkichi the highest possible respect. What more do you guys want?

The clock tower incident can also be seen in the same manner. After Zenkichi freaked out, Medaka hit him and looked at him coldly. Why? Because she was disappointed. Why was she disappointed? Because she had high expectations of him in the first place. And before you start saying that she had no right to be so patronizing, that's pretty much a given considering how Zenkichi always treats her more like a goddess than a friend and equal.

So yea, everything Ajimu said could be true. Or it could simply be the case that Zenkichi's problem is not that he isn't "special" to Medaka. His problem is that he's chasing after a girl far and away beyond his league, can't quite keep up, suffers from a "mild" inferiority complex (which really hinders his progress btw), and is now having his insecurities played with by Ajimu. So far, we've only had Ajimu's word, and Kikaijima's take on the entire situation. There could be many other explanations. What I just wrote is probably only one out of many possible examples. So let's wait until we actually get to see Medaka's thoughts, or until the conclusion before passing judgement shall we?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by MD84

The Zen fans are pouring out of the woodwork because Medaka beat him to a bloody pulp, echoing Kumagawa's actions when he was the main villain (Akune even pointed it out). All speculation on motivations aside, that was clearly meant to be seen as something horrible, if Kikaijima's reaction is anything to go by. Medaka may have honestly done it for his own good, but does that really excuse giving him a beatdown and telling him he sucked?

Kikaijima's (immediate) reaction was one character's reaction out of a group of maybe 10. I'm not sure why you're taking a reflection of Kikaijima's perspective and character as an indicator of objectivity beyond everybody else's.

Zenkichi's value to Medaka was that he was a "Normal" person who wanted to hang out with her without owing her anything. The funny thing is, he still is the only "Normal" person who wants to hang out with her -- the five girls that devalued him are only there because Ajimu sent them in the first place.

This isn't true, because if you remember Medaka does not believe in people being "special" or "abnormal" in the first place. The value Medaka placed in Zenkichi was in being accepted by any other person at all, which is why it was not the arrival of the Not Equals that started Medaka's devaluing process of Zenkichi's friendship, but rather the beginning of Medaka's encounters with other 'people' (abnormals) who were on her level.

Zenkichi never bothered to create a real bond because he thought he and Medaka already had one. It's an understandable mistake -- he was two when their pseudo-relationship started and she never gave him a reason to doubt their bond until chapter 115. The problem is on both ends -- she's a messed up Abnormal who only has an identity based on a messiah complex that a two-year old unwittingly imparted on her, and he in many ways is still that two-year old boy with a hopeless irrational crush.

No, Zenkichi never bothered to create a bond with Medaka because he never even saw her as really human, believing in that "paragon" image of her loving everybody so that his only personal worry was being "strong/worthy" enough to stand beside her. Zenkichi has finally realized that the "help everybody" mission he gave her is complete bullshit--what he doesn't know is that Medaka herself has also long moved past that naive perspective, as is fully demonstrated in the dialogue/exchanges Medaka has had with Ajimu.

Thing is, Zenkichi and Medaka both want a real bond. It's just that both realize that the only relationship Medaka recognizes as real is the kind between worthy adversaries. Medaka even told Kikaijima that she should have made Zenkichi her enemy from the start. It's the shonen convention of "defeated foes becoming friends and love interests", taken to an extreme like so many other shonen conventions in Medaka Box.

This is a false projection. First, Medaka didn't say anything about "from the start" when she told Kikaijima that she preferred Zen as an enemy. Second, for Medaka, fighting and confronting other people is part of a process of understanding. What is important to Medaka is not the fighting and conflict, but the understanding itself. This is the nature of Medaka's abnormality, "perfect observation". It is also through fighting that Medaka can show her own struggle and allow her enemies to see the effort that she puts into her existence--i.e., a way for others to come to understand her. While they may still be adversaries, Medaka actually rarely fights with the same person more than once. This is because once they've come to understand each other, there is little need for further conflict, and what remains is a friendly mutual relationship of self-determination and respect.

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

Medaka is supposed to be exaggerated perfection, or perhaps the exaggerated perfectionist. I can't even see how you can argue against this. Zenkichi had an issue with this perfectionism and talked on it within the first chapter. We are supposed to realize this. That's why he talked about it. He suggested that there was a very subtle issue, a problem with Medaka... And that problem keeps subtly coming up just like it has in recent chapters. This is supposed to be in contrast to the shining radiance of what she does right.

The manga then went on to show how she's awesome and unbeatable while entertaining the shounen jump demographic which is looking for larger than life heroes.

Now comes the really interesting part, at least the part I'm hoping for.. The deconstruction!

The notion of Medaka's "perfection" has already been deconstructed at least three times over. You can't be serious in suggesting that you came away from each of the major conflicts previously only thinking "oh, Medaka is even more perfect and Mary-Sueish than she was previously". Medaka is a dynamic character, she has developed significantly over the course of this series. Your reduction of nearly the entire manga thus far into the throwaway escapades of a "larger than life" hero, meanwhile basing your entire negative interpretation off a couple lines from the first chapter, is frankly ridiculous.

As for Ajimu, yeah, I have no idea what she's up to. Quite frankly, it's going to be awesome.

Actually she's ranked even higher than that sometimes if I recall. That is not the issue of this current conflict. The issue is whether or not she did something wrong HERE. The issue is, "Does this shock us and change our perception of her? Does this enlighten us more to her true nature?" Did she do something wrong? Most people recognize that she did, because she did something almost spuriously heartless. And that's really interesting.

lol, "most people". No, that is, again, only the Zenkichi fans who've been resenting Medaka for nearly the entirety of this manga's duration. The only people who've been "shocked" or "enlightened" are the ones who haven't been paying attention.

I'm waiting in anticipatory glee for her to come back and do something nearly as perception shattering as killing someone because like she would have with Unzen if the council hadn't stopped her. I want that drama; I want that conflict. It would be beautiful, thrilling and entertaining. I want to get past this outer shell of the 'perfect heroine' and get into the meat of what is really going on here.

If you recognize Medaka's "perfect" image was challenged exactly as early as the Unzen battle, and that she was nevertheless still portrayed and received sympathetically, where exactly does your expectation for a "deconstruction" come from?

You keep on coloring people as if they care about the same things they do. The reason why the majority of people are against Medaka in this is because of what happened, not because she beat up on their favorite character. That's why I'm tired of even having to read posts by hardcore Medaka fans. I'm looking for interesting things. A partially sociopathic Medaka who attempts to be good but is simply lacking the humanity is actually far more INTERESTING. I actually find her more interesting when she's wrong, because she's supposed to be always right! Every time someone starts a discussion on this topic, some Medaka-fan comes out and starts complaining that their favorite godlike character is being criticized. That is not interesting, just annoying.

And the braindead comment you made about Zen fans? Please.... That's why the Medaka-fans are turning me off so much.

There aren't too many people who're really Medaka fans, they're simply fans of the manga, period. They've been enjoying the manga up to now for being entertaining and intelligently written. The most popular character is generally Kumagawa. My favourite character in fact used to be Unzen. This thread has a long history of overblown Zen fans running off on delusions and bashing other characters based on premature speculation and spoilers. Your desire to read about and condemn an irredeemable sociopath is more degenerate than actually supported by the manga or relatable. I'm sorry, but if that's what you consider worthwhile "discussion" or "entertainment", you sure are welcome to get your jollies elsewhere.

I like writing and I love dungeon-mastering too. You know who my favorite characters are? The villains. The flawed people. The interestingly odd people. The people I would even normally have issues with. Of course he loves his creation; it's a beautiful idea. But that doesn't mean he approves of her or there is some dichotomy like that, entirely the opposite! It's a message within a discourse!

You are making an equally large presumption in calling Medaka a parody. I'll explain to you here what the conceptual opposition between Medaka and Ajimu is, then. Ajimu pursues equality, the equality of all humans. The Flask Plan is meant to erase all differences in ability in humans such that the necessity for effort and skill in acquiring favoured outcomes becomes irrelevant. Ajimu's is a perspective which acknowledges the arbitrary tyranny of differences in natural ability.

Medaka is someone whose existence most blatantly demonstrates the tyranny which Ajimu is fighting against. Medaka is arbitrary perfection/victory in the absolute. So Ajimu's immediate objective is to artificially empower a human beyond the wall of Medaka's victory. Her ultimate intention is the impossibility of raising every human to that same uniform level.

Medaka's perspective, in contrast, is one that flatly denies the existence of such absolute differences in ability. Despite being the singular embodiment of perfect victory, Medaka's own impossible objective is to prove that all humans are already equal. Beyond the delusion Medaka asserted to the Chairman when she was first invited into the Flask Plan, Medaka's position has evolved into an awareness of her own ability, but a belief nonetheless in the idea that effort and cooperation will allow a person to surpass any obstacle. Ultimately, Medaka's determination towards this idea reflects not any distanced philosophical belief, but a personal will arising from the experience and understanding she accumulated through her lifelong pursuit of relating with others.

It says something that as their arcs unfolded I've become a fan of each of Medaka's "enemies", and remain so even after the fact. That is indeed the high level of discourse at which Medaka Box's narrative at its best operates. However, it is precisely this fact which makes the idea of Medaka herself being a "parody" ridiculous. She has withstood numerous deconstructions, each one more correct and compelling than the last. A character which can stand even with such substantial and compelling personalities as Unzen Myouri, Kumogawa Misogi, Ajimu Najimi can only certainly also be worth something genuinely substantial herself.

On this, I'm starting to think that there is a bit of a communication problem going on here. I have never said that I didn't approve of Medaka as a character in this story. I have said over and over why she was wrong in this instance, and what she was dismissing. I have talked about this interesting parts of the event and what we're supposed to pull out of this. It's a parody because it's done in a satirical matter. Medaka does things that are over the top and then you have to pull out what weird subtle thing is missing here or rather what she is missing. Her exaggerated actions scream parody all over the place.

lol. Your blatantly subjective identification with Zen and moral condemnation of Medaka sure don't scream out "parody". There sure is a paradoxical element to Medaka tendency towards impersonal brutality, but that's what makes it so entertaining and satisfying that Medaka is actually right. Is it a parody that Medaka beat up Zen? Hell yeah! That's the reason why I'm laughing while it's the people who insist that Medaka was "wrong" who are not.

Someone who loves everyone, who actually loves no one specifically.
Someone who always believes in herself and believes in others, yet walks all over other people.
Someone who is always right, but who pushes her position on others.
Someone who believes that she is always wrong, but who has never been wrong.
Someone who believes nothing is impossible for anyone, but that ideal only applies to herself.
Someone who never needs or expects any loyalty, so she can never appreciate the value of loyalty.
Someone who values everyone equally, so that being her friend or ally means nothing.

A person who strongly believes in the very best ideals, but misses them in subtle ways because at some level she really is someone who can't form bonds with other people, at least partially a sociopath due to either her inability to have a genuine common ground with other people or because of something genuinely lacking (or perhaps having too much of something else) in herself.

This is glorious. This is ingenious. This is interesting.

Sure. But you're not even talking about Medaka's ideals in half your examples. The fact that Medaka's positive and self-deterministic ideals go so far against her reality is indeed what makes her interesting, but what you've apparently missed is that it is Medaka's situation that makes her inconsistent with her ideals. Medaka is completely consistent with her ideals to the extent that she expresses and actually acts on them. It is because Medaka believes that she is not special, and that everyone is her equal, that she is never hides or takes pity or goes easy or make exceptions for anybody as she pursues what she believes is right.

They're pouring out the woodworks as you say, mostly because of what just happened. Many people changed their opinions out of empathy. They formed a rapport with Zen (which the male readers are intended to do) and just as much as they were cheering on his relationship with Medaka, they felt the betrayal at him being mistreated and thrown away like trash. If you're looking to a comparison to Bakemonogatari, fans would have acted the same way if Senjougahara had treated Araragi in the same way. That event was intended to evoke those emotions!

And Kikaijima's conversation with Medaka was intended to reveal Medaka's real motivations. Your rage at Zenkichi's "mistreatment" is completely pointless when it was actually an expression of Medaka's appreciation and support. Your reactions can hardly even be called a "rapport" with Zen because they are hardly even in sync with Zenkichi's real feelings. That is less empathy than it is projection.

Medaka doesn't have any friends. She can't have any friends. She's just simply too different from anyone to have and receive genuineness from anyone. Honestly, regardless of what Unzen said about her being lonely, she doesn't need any. She's never needed anyone. She's too strong for that. She's the epitome of strong. She's not just physically strong; she's mentally strong; she's emotionally strong. She doesn't have that 'neediness'.

Zen is not like everybody else. He helped her in the most significant way that anybody has ever been able to help her. He's spent the majority of 13 years with her. He's always loved and supported her. Maybe she didn't need that, but she also actively went to great efforts to make him stay around. Then she's like, well, he's not that great anymore because he's having a crisis and I have other people now.. So, uh, yeah trash him. That's heartless. That's lacking loyalty or persistence. That's lacking acknowledge for what he's done and what his intentions have been. And, that's the point.

And there's another issue. She's never really helped him. He doesn't have a debt to her. We could argue that he helped her, but not the other way around. He has been, as Munakata called it, her sacrifice. She kept him around, and did her best to make him stay around, until he didn't need him anymore.

I feel like I'm trying to explain the basics here of human relationships. I shouldn't have to point this out. Nishio, through Kikajima, pointed this out. Nishio, through the children with flowers on the first page of 118, and the battered Zenkichi pointed this out. Nishio through Munakata, describing how Zenkichi was different to the council, pointed this out.

Medaka fans are ignoring this. This is not subtle or ambiguous. This is being yelled in our faces.

No, not really. Medaka beat Zen up and pushed him to stand firm on his path after he decided he'd man up and stop making himself a sacrifice. That's Medaka tossing everything in their past away, yes. That's her doing it after she realized it was useless, and learned that Zenkichi himself knew it was useless too. The opener to chapter 118 said it: "Instead of a peaceful yesterday, towards a correct tomorrow". That goes for Medaka and Zenkichi both. The persistent butthurtedness of "some" readers over the outcome of their past relationship is what's truly missing the point.

As for bonds, I've mentioned earlier. Medaka has no bonds. She's never had any bonds. She cannot have any bonds. Where I'm hoping Nishio goes with this is for Zenkichi to actually create a genuine bond with her by becoming her peer.

Zenkichi will never become Medaka's permanent peer as far as real ability. Both Medaka and Ajimu's dreams are destined to fail; the persistent truth in this reality will be that some people are better than others. What anybody will need to form a real relationship with Medaka will be to come to genuinely believe in her ideal, that's all. And that's not impossible at all, because as you've pointed out earlier, Medaka has some of the very best ideals that there are out there.

Medaka didn't care if she was alone or not. She's not that needy. She doesn't need people. In a very real way, part of her dramatic quality is that she's still alone even surrounded by people.

The value Medaka used to see in Zenkichi is more abnormal. It had more to do with how he was an example of some ideal. The things that actually make him more unique, such as his love and loyalty towards Medaka and the time that he's shared with her.... Those do not enter into her evaluation. She doesn't even understand them. That's something we've attributed to her via our interpretations of her actions that were never really there.

She didn't even want to help him when he was mentally weak. She was just annoyed. That's pretty heartless. She didn't hit him from behind that first time because she was trying to reform him. She just did that because she wanted to and she didn't feel hesitant about hurting him.

Zenkichi during that time was dealing with a personal crisis, set off by the parasite eyes. He was trying to prove to himself that he could overcome something with effort, with 'normalness', when he'd just lost his specialness and he'd just lost the cornerstone of his character.... His reliance on effort and being normal. If he failed, he used to have something that still define him.

Which brings something out that may give more insight into Medaka's character, Zenkichi at that time was acting emotionally weak. Also, he didn't know everything that was going on. He was focused on his own internal emotional struggle. At that time, a friend would have tried to support him, especially a friend who had practically been handfasted to him for 13 years. Medaka is abnormal, and furthermore she didn't understand what was going on with him.

Medaka's family is not special to her. Medaka's friends are not special to her. Her loyal friend who should be closer to her than family and she should be indebted to is not special to her. There is something wrong about this, something that clashes with our humanity.

Medaka and Zenkichi have never understood each other. My pet theory is that they attribute something in themselves to the other person, which actually isn't the same thing at all. Zenkichi says early on that Medaka loves all of humanity like her family. Later Zenkichi says that he always supports his friends. Zenkichi equates Medaka's ideal to the loyalty and caring he has, but Medaka has no such loyalty to anyone. Everyone is equal. No one is special. Friends and enemies are alike. Medaka has no bonds. In the same way, Medaka equates Zenkichi's caring with Medaka's ideals. And these two things are not the same thing whatsoever.

Even though they can often look the same, caring does not equal ideals. In fact, they are polar opposites. In many cases, I'm sure Zenkichi would support his friends even if they were wrong, but Medaka has no loyalty to anyone, just to her ideal of 'people'. Medaka would betray her friends as quickly as she'd support her enemies. Zenkichi would factor in his relationships to his friends.

It's pretty presumptuous to go out and decide what constitutes "our" humanity, isn't it? The range of human experience is a pretty wide space. Medaka had been indebted to Zenkichi for 13 years. Wasn't it time to, as Ajimu Najimi says, stop being "held back" by him? If neither Medaka nor Zenkichi ever really understood each other, why should they place any weight on or hold onto that history? The effort and loyalty Zenkichi put into his relationship with Medaka, the effort and loyalty Medaka also put into her relationship with Zenkichi, it has certainly been long enough that they should be allowed to expire. Who the hell wants to live chained/burdened by a promise and relationship which was created when they were 2 yrs old?

About Medaka wanting to form a genuine bond with Zenkichi, I can't say at this point. I don't think she even considers it a possibility, really. Her behaviors seem to suggest indifference to him being unique (different) in any way, which is a cornerstone of one of the ideals that she talks about. To her, it would be impossible for him, much less anybody else, to become 'unique' or 'special' to her. In fact, it might be appropriate to say that she denies the possible existence of such a thing.

Yet another one letting the distinction completely pass them by. To Medaka, there certainly are people whom she is "fond of". That used to be Zenkichi, that stopped when she found out how much their past "understanding" was really worth. Now it's Zenkichi again as he's decided to actually stand up to her. To Medaka, there is a distinction between what is objectively "special" and personally "liked". To help you with the distinction, consider first that it is possible for "liked" things to still be fallible. At the time that Kikaijima was asking her, Zenkichi certainly was "unique" to Medaka in that she actually liked him. It's just that Medaka expressed that "like" by beating him brutally (while knowing he could take it) as opposed to going easy on him in a way that Kikaijima perhaps expected.

[[HearT]]

°ロ°" Holy Cheese On Rye!!!! You people are writing freakin' Novels here!!!

＠telamont: I really like everything you said XD and I really need to stop taking everything Ajimu is saying as undeniable truth! There's a reason she's the 'villain'! XD lol Thanks for your post ：)