Fate/Zero - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[GeostigmataShi]

Originally Posted by applejuice

I keep saying this - what presented in screen is what that matters. I also said this, there was more bad things other than cut that cannot be edited or changed unless they totally redo this episode - which cannot happen.

Too bad, they actually only see the anime in tv as advertising the Blu-ray (and others product, duh).

[Kusa-San]

A good episode but not that great. The music was not really great in this episode. Same for teh animation. Right now, I like FSN much more.

[Yuna Amakura]

I like how they were able to show how Saber, a somewhat naïve girl that had to become a king (queen, whatever) has a totally different point of view from what I consider to be a more "down to earth" king like Rider. Not only is Rider awesome in his actions but his words are also epic.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by applejuice

No. Leaving out existing footage = not animating. What's the point animating it earlier when they can't even show it to us properly? That's an horrible excuse. If they are going to do that, they should've done it better. They still throw anime original content from Loli Rin adventure which is totally useless to plot development, but cut stuffs from King's Banquet part that is important to plot? That's - just not right.

I keep saying this - what presented in screen is what that matters. I also said this, there was more bad things other than cut that cannot be edited or changed unless they totally redo this episode - which cannot happen.

Turn the chessboard over: let's imagine that Rin's part was cut to 5-10 minute. What would we have in the end? Even more awkward placement and time for the discussion between the three kings, without much prolonged time for the talk, and disconnected part with the future events.
The whole deal with Rin's episode has really nothing to do with this episode, aside perhaps the budget (which is questionable, since Ionian Hetairoi was depicted quite accurately with tons of details with the army).

Now let's go back with the actual structure: you CANNOT animate a show with several hours span in mind. As archer and lunarmoon stated: the actual pace has to follow the actual limitations apposed by the current format, which is 22 minutes (hell, they even cut the OP for this episode).
Unless the flow and the pacing allow a 2 episodes span, it is not advised to go on ridiculous lengths and keep things essential.

What other options did they have for a TV broadcast episode of 22 minutes? Splitting the talk and Iskandar's reality marble showndown? Nonsense considering the actual connection between both scenes. It would be terribly asinine to have the climax shut off when Iskandar gets ready to respond to Assassin assault to have a "to be continued".
While other confrontations such like first Saber VS Lancer could work on an early part of an episode, it was because of the actual tone and purpose of the fights, along with its consequences. Here we would have been disconnected with the talk done -a week ago-.
And saving 1 episode for the talk and 1 episode for Iskandar's tour de force would be nothing short of a huge drag, however impressive it could look. In fact, it would just be ostentatious and arguably spread the tension caused by Iskandar going gung ho.

[ars89]

I loled when Rider just showed up to drink. Wow Saber's conviction has been shaken.

Rider FTW, best noble phantasm ever!

[Fome]

What I don't understand is why the Assassins suddenly decided to drop their stealthy activities and attack the three strongest Servants head on. I bet even Gilgamesh alone could handle all of them. It just makes no sense. Unless Kirei intentionally sent them on a suicide mission or something.

Also, I agree that the animation quality was not up to par this episode. Some of the faces, lol.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ars89

I loled when Rider just showed up to drink. Wow Saber's conviction has been shaken.

Rider FTW, best noble phantasm ever!

EA still tops but it is the most gar of NP.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Fome

What I don't understand is why the Assassins suddenly decided to drop their stealthy activities and attack the three strongest Servants head on. I bet even Gilgamesh alone could handle all of them. It just makes no sense. Unless Kirei intentionally sent them on a suicide mission or something.

Let's avoid explaining the reason, you will probably have one next week.
Now remember that Gil wouldn't attack them since Assassins are part of Tokiomi's scheme. That's the reason why even Rider asked him if it was his doing.
Also, Saber is in crippled state, thus overwhelming number can mean severe troubles, as shown in previous episode with Casters' minions.
Finally, Rider himself is a huge unknown factor, since he's never shown anything past his chariot NP. So there is no way to figure if he is a top servant or not, regardless how famous Alexander the Great was.

[Fome]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Let's avoid explaining the reason, you will probably have one next week.
Now remember that Gil wouldn't attack them since Assassins are part of Tokiomi's scheme. That's the reason why even Rider asked him if it was his doing.
Also, Saber is in crippled state, thus overwhelming number can mean severe troubles, as shown in previous episode with Casters' minions.
Finally, Rider himself is a huge unknown factor, since he's never shown anything past his chariot NP. So there is no way to figure if he is a top servant or not, regardless how famous Alexander the Great was.

Thanks, that was a decent explanation without spoilers.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Now let's go back with the actual structure: you CANNOT animate a show with several hours span in mind. As archer and lunarmoon stated: the actual pace has to follow the actual limitations apposed by the current format, which is 22 minutes (hell, they even cut the OP for this episode).
Unless the flow and the pacing allow a 2 episodes span, it is not advised to go on ridiculous lengths and keep things essential.

What other options did they have for a TV broadcast episode of 22 minutes? Splitting the talk and Iskandar's reality marble showndown? Nonsense considering the actual connection between both scenes. It would be terribly asinine to have the climax shut off when Iskandar gets ready to respond to Assassin assault to have a "to be continued".
While other confrontations such like first Saber VS Lancer could work on an early part of an episode, it was because of the actual tone and purpose of the fights, along with its consequences. Here we would have been disconnected with the talk done -a week ago-.
And saving 1 episode for the talk and 1 episode for Iskandar's tour de force would be nothing short of a huge drag, however impressive it could look. In fact, it would just be ostentatious and arguably spread the tension caused by Iskandar going gung ho..

Here's where taking some creative liberties with the source might have been justified. Perhaps they could have reordered some events, or added an action scene at the beginning of this episode prior to the beginning of the three knight dialogue, ending the episode with the confrontation with Assassin. Or better--move the previous episode with Rin's adventure to some other point in the series. Then you could have a pensive, dialogue heavy episode for this chapter without people grumbling about the lack of action for three episodes in a role.

[Fome]

Double post, sorry

[Klashikari]

^ Assuming they could make a well paced "full talk" episode, the problem would be the next episode with Rider having fun with his army: it would deal a huge blow regarding the harsh contrast between Rider and Saber's kingship. It would turn such episode into something that bases only on Rider's prowess, instead of escalating the argument into the crystallization of Rider's words: the said mindset materialized through the reality marble.

Also, as I stated before: Rin's adventure really has no impact whatsoever to this episode, aside the budget, possibly. The fact it is there or not wouldn't change that you need both talk and Ionian Hetairoi in the same episode to get the point across for Rider, but also Saber's character, being shaken despite how she was depicted so far.

In a perfect world, this episode should have been 30 minutes long, but that's really not possible considering the limitations. You can say they at least made sure every important portions made it through for the TV broadcast, even suppressing the OP.

[Hooves]

If they cut the Opening and Ending, they would have had more time to put in some things. But that's impossible I assume, so limitations really did take a toll on what would be placed in this episode. Now if they placed it in the Blu-Ray, then that would help sales in some manner of form.

[pagan poor]

So that's why they call him the King of Bros. I'm sold.

[sento]

Well, it's seems that people really loved it (aside some few exceptions) so here is my opinion as novel reader.

Aside of off-models here and there, I loved it. Iskandar and Arturia clash of ideals was really well made, you even can see how Iskandar words are piercing her soul. And Ionioi Hetairoi was really detailed, with a superb and strong scene.

Originally Posted by applejuice

The reason for Iskandar finding Saber was cut, The reason for Assassin coming was also cut, Gil's theory of becoming King was cut, characterisation of caster couple was cut......cut cut cut cut... Many important foreshadowings/ impacts/ plots points/ emotional devices were all cut, along with horrible direction with horrible Sakuga.

Oh come on, as it was already said, it's kinda obvious that this episode suffered from TV costraints and ufotable probably did cuts on a larger episode (as the preview last episode had Gil final quote to Rider and Tokiomi talking). But it wasn't as bad as you're painting it by any stretch, and this is an adaptation, you just can't seriously fit everything in and work. You just want to know a succesful series with very HEAVY (going as far as completely wipe out entire characters and scenes) SERIOUS cut? Baccano.

And direction was the same as always, only thing off this episode was some strange faces around.

[rpgman1]

Enjoyed this episode, but the animation of their faces was so weird like in a hurry. Saber's resolve was shattered by Rider's words. Archer find it interesting that Saber was clinging on to a foolish dream and making sure she can break out of that despair. Rider's Noble Phantasm was awesome though, summoning his army within his terrain.

[RDF2050]

Originally Posted by GeostigmataShi

Splitting this won't be a good idea, i definetly don't want this to split...
and every episode has a same bugdet,
in this one they spent a lot on Rider NP, thus the first half had a lower quality
do you hate loli rin so much!? that you don't want to admit they done a good job in the pacing?

I don't think so. Berserker's animation required a lot more tools than the entire animation of the rest of the series so far.

Rider is just AWESOME. Best Noble Phantams EVER.

[Kokukirin]

Originally Posted by rpgman1

Enjoyed this episode, but the animation of their faces was so weird like in a hurry. Saber's resolve was shattered by Rider's words. Archer find it interesting that Saber was clinging on to a foolish dream and making sure she can break out of that despair. Rider's Noble Phantasm was awesome though, summoning his army within his terrain.

I found the faces quite off too. Good job spending the budgets on loli Rin.

[Malkuth]

Why the hell did assassin show up there... death wish... again

Originally Posted by Archer

Everything in this episode was off-model

Mainly Saber and Gilgamesh, but still not that bad F/SN was far worse and way more often. Production quality is still above average.

Originally Posted by Archer

EXCEPT for Ionioi Hetairoi.

Hm, interesting Alexander is not followed by his main army, the macedonian phalanx, but by mercenaries and slaves in his reality marble

Also WTF, Alexander, we never used those over-engineered crap to drink wine back in Hellas

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

So is Alex's army

and Had a friend is still more then Saber ever had. Saber has followers but no friends.

Arthur also had a friend, unfortunately he also had a slutty wife, that stole him

That's another reason I completely agree with Rider on Saber... sad little girl

[HandofFate]

I love how Sabre always get destroyed about how dumb her wish is. Get back in the kitchen!

Also lol'd @ Rider's last line to Sabre and totally dismissing her voice totally.

Rider stole the show in both talk and action this episode.

I liked Gil's manner, he's still super arrogant, but he's having a lot of fun just sitting and drinking with them. I think he's just lonely, and he covers it up with his arrogance and stuff. He just wants friends.

Assassin bunch, what a complete waste..even wtih crippled thumb, I think Sabre could have taken all 98 on. Only reason she had trouble with casters minions was because they were endless. If there was a definite number, it would have been over quickly.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Assassin bunch, what a complete waste..even wtih crippled thumb, I think Sabre could have taken all 98 on. Only reason she had trouble with casters minions was because they were endless. If there was a definite number, it would have been over quickly.

Remember that Assassin, even weak for servants standards, are still well above human in term of strength, while Caster's minions were just endless without much tactics aside from being basically fodder thrown at her left and right.

The main reason why Assassins were slaughtered by Rider's army, aside from the arguably larger numerical advantage, is that they have -nowhere- to run / hide / use etc. Should they be able to stalk in the shadows, hit & run strategy would be viable, but it isn't the case. That and the fact they lost their formation and position due to Ionian Hetairoi displacing both parties completely once in the Reality Marble.

It is a "what if scenario", but it wouldn't be surprising if Saber would have trouble to deal with them if they were in a normal environnment with tactics being possible. Crippled Saber would only be able to rely on her crippled swordsmanship and Strike Air, which is potentially not enough with sentient enemies.