News Stories

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

They must be really really restraining themselves then....

Were they restraining themselves, or ordered by the president to restrain themselves? The president needed to try hard to not make himself look like an oppressor in this delicate situation. He only acted until the other side looked more like the bad guys.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by sbg711

For several days the Maidanees were shooting officers. 10 policemen died just in 1 night. The "protesters" seized weapons and have over 2000 rifles in their possession.
What Ukrainian security forces are doing is definitely not the best option, because it's a late initiative. They should have arrested the radicals as soon as the gun storages were raided. Now this has deteriorated into a gun fight between rioters and security forces.
By responding gun fire with gun fire, and with an SBU operation on the way, the armed elements of the opposition will be removed. (either arrested or killed)
The longer they wait the more deaths will there be in the long run.

Please, people, please. Have none of you learned anything from Libya and Syria yet? I can't believe how stupid this community sometimes can be.

My main complaint was the claim that the protesters are terrorists. This is CLEARLY not the case. They are rioters, rebels, anti-government. But they are NOT TERRORISTS. To call them terrorists is clearly incorrect term usage used to make one group look worse than they actually are. And "Anti-terrorism" team? Don't make me laugh, that term doesn't exist. It is invented to justify extreme force by the military/police. There is no anti-terrorism groups who work in the light of day.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GDB

It's a principle, not a nitty gritty detail laden database. Use some common sense, sheesh. Do you expect "people should be good" to have textbooks worth of clauses on when they shouldn't be good, or would you accept that, in general and within reason, the statement stands on its own?

Define "common sense" and "within reason". Heck, define "good". When you say "drugs should be legal because people should be able to do what they want with their own body", you kinda got down to details from a general principle. So, no, we're under no obligation to accept the conclusion, or to twist the premise into something we can accept.

[kyp275]

I'm no fan of rioters, but not in a million years can you convince me that snipers going after medics trying to rescue the wounded is anything remotely close to justifiable use of force

[Irenicus]

He's someone who's trying to equate the European Union with the Nazi regime and who convinced himself to believe that the CIA/EU/whatever is behind the popular uprisings (hint: LOL NO. That is not how the CIA operates, ever, when it wants to topple regimes). Don't even bother.

I just hate that the News Stories thread has devolved into this sort of propaganda hellhole with not just the Putinists but also anti-Japanese PRC hard-ons and all sorts of nationalist rejects. Thank the gods we haven't had a visit from Hindu nationalists yet.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I just hate that the News Stories thread has devolved into this sort of propaganda hellhole with not just the Putinists but also anti-Japanese PRC hard-ons and all sorts of nationalist rejects. Thank the gods we haven't had a visit from Hindu nationalists yet.

Agreed; I cannot stand those degenerates spouting the same old crap.

[JokerD]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

He's someone who's trying to equate the European Union with the Nazi regime and who convinced himself to believe that the CIA/EU/whatever is behind the popular uprisings (hint: LOL NO. That is not how the CIA operates, ever, when it wants to topple regimes). Don't even bother.

I just hate that the News Stories thread has devolved into this sort of propaganda hellhole with not just the Putinists but also anti-Japanese PRC hard-ons and all sorts of nationalist rejects. Thank the gods we haven't had a visit from Hindu nationalists yet.

I don't think that (the EU supports nazi-ism) is true, however, I do find it odd the EU and US usual stance that protesters = good, government = bad. Really, it is all about what suits their policy and interest of the day.

Anyway, on the matter of another protest:
Court in Thailand Limits Crackdown on Protesters

Samdin Lertbutr, a protest leader, said Wednesday on Thai television that “very professional” men with weapons were assisting protesters and “making the police retreat.”

The court, however, found that the protests were being carried out “peacefully without weapons,” and ordered that the demonstrators’ rights and freedoms “be protected according to the Constitution.” The decision bars the government from using force or weapons to crack down on the demonstrators.

Can the courts be any more blatant in it's bias...

[MrTerrorist]

Facebook to buy messaging app WhatsApp for $19bn

As a WhatsApp user, do you think it's a good or bad thing?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

He's someone who's trying to equate the European Union with the Nazi regime and who convinced himself to believe that the CIA/EU/whatever is behind the popular uprisings (hint: LOL NO. That is not how the CIA operates, ever, when it wants to topple regimes). Don't even bother.

I just hate that the News Stories thread has devolved into this sort of propaganda hellhole with not just the Putinists but also anti-Japanese PRC hard-ons and all sorts of nationalist rejects. Thank the gods we haven't had a visit from Hindu nationalists yet.

This would have never happened if they had a long tradition of western democractic values. Clearly, the mess left behind by eastern Socialism during the Cold War have left a long line of trouble that can't be easily dealt with. It's our duty as 'Muricans to educate these people in our ways and Western Ideals. May God bless their poor souls.

There. I completed the cycle of Chauvinistic Jingoism. Mission Complete!

[sbg711]

The Polish foreign minister has been filmed telling a Ukranian protest leader: "If you don't support this [deal] you'll have martial law, you'll have the army. You will all be dead."

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...l-all-be-dead/

[ganbaru]

Ukraine peace deal signed, opens way for early election
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1G0OU20140221
How much time will it hold ?

China urges Obama to cancel meeting with Dalai Lama
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1K01P20140221

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Ukraine peace deal signed, opens way for early election
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1G0OU20140221
How much time will it hold ?

One can only hope. But Yanukovich should be out of office NOW for the record book.

China urges Obama to cancel meeting with Dalai Lama
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1K01P20140221

If Barry is a man of principles, he should go forward with the meeting regardless of what the tools say on the other side.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Facebook to buy messaging app WhatsApp for $19bn

As a WhatsApp user, do you think it's a good or bad thing?

I use FB messenger....


Finally people can quit sending me Whats App messages that I don't see due to no 3/4G....

If they will be subsumed under FB messenger of course

Originally Posted by Irenicus

(hint: LOL NO. That is not how the CIA operates, ever, when it wants to topple regimes). Don't even bother.
.

Really? You are so certain?

Not talking about the Ukraine BTW, just in general.

[Xellos-_^]

Germany has swooped on three elderly former guards who served at the Nazi death camp Auschwitz in WW2 where 1.1 million Jews were exterminated. The arrests follow months of investigations by the country’s central war crimes investigation unit which has zeroed in on some two dozen still surviving guards – several of them women, Mail Online reported.
Those seized this week are all men aged 88, 92 and 94 and living in the southwestern state of Baden-Wurttemberg.
‘They are suspected of having participated in murders at the Nazis’ Auschwitz extermination camp in occupied Poland,’ said prosecutors in a statement.
The 94-year-old is understood to be Hans Koenig, who lives near Stuttgart.
Koenig, an ethnic German from Bratislava, became known as a ‘bruiser’ in Auschwitz due to his alleged love of cruelty for its own sake.
He is proud of his past. He told the Bild newspaper in Germany last year: ‘At the time the German ethnic group I belonged to had to be tested and I was happy to be a part of that.’
The three elderly men underwent medical tests and then faced a judge who confirmed their fitness to be detained in a prison hospital.


http://jpupdates.com/2014/02/20/thre...ested-germany/

good for Germany, good to see they are serious about getting justice for the Victims even after 70 years.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Ukraine peace deal signed, opens way for early election
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1G0OU20140221
How much time will it hold ?

So who here can honestly say the government hasn't already lost? After the level of rhetoric and violence the government has used to (unsuccessfully) suppress this, what does any of this look like but the Ukrainian government realizing that the balance of power shifted, and that the opposition might be able to win if they went on the offensive?


The Police have failed, and the Army has declared itself neutral while the opposition has made a mockery of the regular security forces...what can the Ukrainian government do at this point besides try to surrender in as unbloody a manner as possible?

Originally Posted by kyp275

I'm no fan of rioters, but not in a million years can you convince me that snipers going after medics trying to rescue the wounded is anything remotely close to justifiable use of force

Shooting up the rioters from a distance in general isn't a justifiable use of force. Not even from a ruthless pragmatic perspective. Since the deaths don't actually do anything.You're not killing enough of the dissidents to break their stranglehold behind the barricades. You're not storming the barricades enmass intending to take it with lethal force, whatever the cost...no. The police marksmen were just...shooting people for the sake of shooting people. This is what utterly dysfunctional regimes that don't realize they've already lost do. They can't beat the opposition by force of arms. They can't talk the army into doing it... So what was the point of shooting up dissidents on such a puny ass scale accomplish? Nothing.

The Ukrainian government has managed to earn two primary character traits in this conflict. Brutal...and weak. People will accept brutality from someone who is strong. People will tolerate weakness in someone who is kind...once people smell weakness from someone they utterly despise...it's like throwing blood in the water around sharks.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

So who here can honestly say the government hasn't already lost? After the level of rhetoric and violence the government has used to (unsuccessfully) suppress this, what does any of this look like but the Ukrainian government realizing that the balance of power shifted, and that the opposition might be able to win if they went on the offensive?


The Police have failed, and the Army has declared itself neutral while the opposition has made a mockery of the regular security forces...what can the Ukrainian government do at this point besides try to surrender in as unbloody a manner as possible?

you want more violence?

1. early election are call
2. Yanukovich's power have been strip by parliament
3. his biggest rival is set to be release form prison.

While 70+ have die, this is issue is being resolve by rule of law not a civil war. Which is what is going to happen if the violence starts up again.

[Haak]

My impression is that once it became clear that the police were failing, it dawned on Yanukovich that he had only two options: Compromise or double down using the army. But the army is a bit of a wild card and there wasn't any guarantee that they would go along. Yanukovich suddenly sacking army officials only further gives this impression and it's possible that Yanukovich just didn't want to risk it. I also like to think that either Yanukovich and/or Russia learnt from Syria that doubling down could just make things a whole lot worse, but that's harder to say.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

you want more violence?

1. early election are call
2. Yanukovich's power have been strip by parliament
3. his biggest rival is set to be release form prison.

While 70+ have die, this is issue is being resolve by rule of law not a civil war. Which is what is going to happen if the violence starts up again.

Of course not. It'd be better if nobody was hurting anybody else...but at this point, you have two hostile factions fighting each-other.


...but lets be honest here. The reason the government is offering the "rule of law" is because they tried to solve this situation by force of arms...and utterly failed. Do you think this would be settled by "rule of law" if the government had managed to crush the dissidents, and didn't have to worry about the opposition coming after them?


Hopefully this deescalates the situation...but it's probably gonna have to involve the government not pretending they didn't lose this, and give the angry dissident rioters a reason to keep resorting to force of arms. Cause the government can't afford 50/50 amicable compromise now...not when the opposition are for all intents and purposes winning.

Originally Posted by Haak

My impression is that once it became clear that the police were failing, it dawned on Yanukovich that he had only two options: Compromise or double down using the army. But the army is a bit of a wild card and there wasn't any guarantee that they would go along. Yanukovich suddenly sacking army officials only further gives this impression and it's possible that Yanukovich just didn't want to risk it. I also like to think that either Yanukovich and/or Russia learnt from Syria that doubling down could just make things a whole lot worse, but that's harder to say.

Keep in mind. He wasn't just sacking army officials. He was sacking them...and replacing them with officers from the NAVY. Yes. The government had SO little faith in the leadership of the ground combat troops they needed to clear out the dissidents, they had to put sailors in charge of them. They couldn't even find a general from the army to replace the head of the army to run things during this crisis.


You're absolute correct. The Army was a wild card. Maybe a mechanized infantry regiment with heavy weapons could have crushed the civilians in the streets...that same infantry regiment could also storm the government capital buildings, and declare a coup...though what makes this scarier for the government, is that it's likely easier for the army to arrest a bunch of old men in suits than to engage tens of thousands of dissidents in urban combat. Which means the non-ideological army officers only interested in restoring order to the country might have simply aligned with the rebels out of convenience.

[SeijiSensei]

I don't see much of a future for Ukraine as it is currently constituted. There is seemingly little that unites the Ukrainian-speaking west with the Russian-speaking east. Sometimes, as in Belgium, these kinds of fundamental ethnic differences can be accommodated via a federal government structure. Perhaps that would work for Ukraine, but I see schism as a more stable long-term outcome. As an example, look at these maps of the last two presidential election results.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Of course not. It'd be better if nobody was hurting anybody else...but at this point, you have two hostile factions fighting each-other.


...but lets be honest here. The reason the government is offering the "rule of law" is because they tried to solve this situation by force of arms...and utterly failed. Do you think this would be settled by "rule of law" if the government had managed to crush the dissidents, and didn't have to worry about the opposition coming after them?


Hopefully this deescalates the situation...but it's probably gonna have to involve the government not pretending they didn't lose this, and give the angry dissident rioters a reason to keep resorting to force of arms. Cause the government can't afford 50/50 amicable compromise now...not when the opposition are for all intents and purposes winning.

i am not sure who you are referring to as "government"

the paraliament that strip Yanukovich's power where made up of opposition members and defectors of Yanukovich own party. majority of these defected when the violence started not when it became clear the police would unable to clear the protester.

i think you need to be more specific on who "government" you are referring. Since right form the start not everyone form the "government' is on the same page.