[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[UsagiTenpura]

To put the key analogy in a way that's truly fitting for Umineko.

It's not because you know the "key" of the epitaph that you know where to use it.
The "key" is just a six letter word and doesn't solve anything about anything unless you know precisely where to use it, which in itself is another puzzle.

Alternatively what if you find a key in the streets. You're told that this key actually opens up a safe containing tons of money. However you're not even told in which country that safe is. It still makes it the right key, but we don't even know what it's the key for.

However in Umineko's problem we're more shown the ruins of a building. We're told that somewhere in it lies an important key, and we're not even told a key to what.

Basically the only way to claim a key is the "right" one is to know precisely what it unlocks and what's found behind it's door. In other words, solving everything about everything in Umineko. No one proposed a theory that could really do that so far. Asking anyone to do so and claim their reasoning is wrong if they can't do that can be extended to make anyone's reasoning about anything about Umineko wrong.

[Misuzu]

I know that the conversation has shifted elsewhere, but couldn't the key that Ryuukishi was talking about be the fake deaths rather than Shkannon? It was confirmed rather than hinted at, and it's a lot more effective at solving closed rooms than Shkannon is as far as people have theorized.

It's likely that it's even part of the key to the last closed room puzzle, since Kanon dying after entering the room and locking the door is a pretty popular theory for that one.

Maybe Shkannon is true, maybe it isn't (I hope it's not), but either way, I don't think the solution to most of the story's biggest puzzles.

[Kitsu]

I know that the conversation has shifted elsewhere, but couldn't the key that Ryuukishi was talking about be the fake deaths rather than Shkannon? It was confirmed rather than hinted at, and it's a lot more effective at solving closed rooms than Shkannon is as far as people have theorized.

It's likely that it's even part of the key to the last closed room puzzle, since Kanon dying after entering the room and locking the door is a pretty popular theory for that one.

Maybe Shkannon is true, maybe it isn't (I hope it's not), but either way, I don't think the solution to most of the story's biggest puzzles.

Pretty much this.
Ryukishi even plainly shows that. During the first twillight Ronove tells that she has to understand magic to create closed rooms. The magic to create locked rooms = Key
Jessica can use it and create them.
tl;dr
Shkanon(trice) is not the key

Shkannon may be true but it's not the key for the closed room murders-

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

I know that the conversation has shifted elsewhere, but couldn't the key that Ryuukishi was talking about be the fake deaths rather than Shkannon? It was confirmed rather than hinted at, and it's a lot more effective at solving closed rooms than Shkannon is as far as people have theorized.

I think it's likely that the fake deaths contributes a lot of noise to the real murders. So knowing it does help us unlock a lot of scenes. But, if I remember correctly, Ryukishi's stated key was something that only very people have hit on. In EP6, the fake deaths was basically given to us as an answer... we kinda all know that one now...

Originally Posted by Misuzu

It's likely that it's even part of the key to the last closed room puzzle, since Kanon dying after entering the room and locking the door is a pretty popular theory for that one.

I'm thinking that people left one of the room because eventually enough people were let in on the fake deaths. So it's possible Kanon moving around is the result of the fakery... but what are you thinking about this particular point? Does it add any more to how he can disappear?

[Misuzu]

Well, some theories I've seen have suggested Kanon was mortally wounded when he entered the room and reset the chain. Injuring someone to the point where they'd eventually die from their injuries, and then cornering them and having them lock themselves in a room to get away from you would be a pretty good way to create a closed room. I don't know if it'd work for any of the closed rooms on the gameboard though- I'm replaying the first four games right now so I'll keep it in mind and see what it might work for.

I think whether the bodies are separated like they were in Chapter 6 or whether they're all in the same room like some of the other twilights might be a useful clue. If all the "dead" people are in the same room, only one person needs to be faking for them to have created the closed room themselves. Of course, people were "killed" in the same room in Chapter 5, and we know that all of these people were initially faking too.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

Well, some theories I've seen have suggested Kanon was mortally wounded when he entered the room and reset the chain. Injuring someone to the point where they'd eventually die from their injuries, and then cornering them and having them lock themselves in a room to get away from you would be a pretty good way to create a closed room.

I've been thinking about that since technically we did see Kanon get shot and Jessica screaming after the duel... as to whether he could run all the way back to the mansion by himself afterwards... hmm... 8)

Originally Posted by Misuzu

I think whether the bodies are separated like they were in Chapter 6 or whether they're all in the same room like some of the other twilights might be a useful clue. If all the "dead" people are in the same room, only one person needs to be faking for them to have created the closed room themselves. Of course, people were "killed" in the same room in Chapter 5, and we know that all of these people were initially faking too.

This is why the Epitaph Fakery Theory includes the idea that the killer could kill them while they're faking in separate rooms, or usually after they all gather at one place after they were told to 'disappear.'

It should be in the list of theories in my signature if you haven't seen it already...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Pretty much this.
Ryukishi even plainly shows that. During the first twillight Ronove tells that she has to understand magic to create closed rooms. The magic to create locked rooms = Key
Jessica can use it and create them.
tl;dr
Shkanon(trice) is not the key

Shkannon may be true but it's not the key for the closed room murders-

That can't be it if you consider that Ryuukishi said in the interview

If you really understand how he was able to escape (Battler in EP6), it should be possible for you to solve all of the riddles from EP1 to EP4.
Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now.

The fake deaths is something that was actually hinted in EP5, and confirmed a lot earlier than Battler's escape in EP6.

Ryuukishi's words here are clear. If you understand how Battler escaped from the guestroom in EP6 then you can understand how all the other closed rooms were made.

Maybe it's not Shkanon, but certainly it isn't the fake deaths either.

I'd like to point out anyway that about this we have two different mainstream theories: Shkanon and KinzoKanon.

Neither of those seem to explain the closed rooms at first glance.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Maybe it's not Shkanon, but certainly it isn't the fake deaths either.

I'd like to point out anyway that about this we have two different mainstream theories: Shkanon and KinzoKanon.

Neither of those seem to explain the closed rooms at first glance.

Why don't fake deaths explain Battler's closed room? He was certainly faking when he escaped wasn't he? So it at least explains part of it.

As for the closed rooms Lambdadelta said that by now there are only two kind of answers to explain them. Faking deaths and creating the illusion of a closed room through misdirections. The second one hasn't been looked into as much.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Ryuukishi's words here are clear. If you understand how Battler escaped from the guestroom in EP6 then you can understand how all the other closed rooms were made.

My understanding of it was that somebody was supposed to help him escape. It didn't have to be Kanon and it didn't have to use Shkanon or Kanon = Kinzo to have anyone do that. It's Erika's fault for overcomplicating the answer by ruining his other solutions.

[UsagiTenpura]

Well to me the "key to create/destroy" any closed room ... is something I honestly believe I can guess at.

This was said in arc 6. It's nothing really new. For a long time I've been trying to solve any closed room with the following reasoning:

Beatrice is making us think about the WRONG thing. There's so many examples of that, I can't say I'm right but nontheless I do think you can see her doing that in every single closed room case on Rokkenjima. That includes closed rooms that never were closed in the first place but that she managed to lead Battler to believe it was. An example is the "never said to be locked by anyone" chapel door in arc 2's first twilight.

At the very least I can explain every single closed room so far in relation that Beato made us think of the wrong thing (or LD, Battler).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Why don't fake deaths explain Battler's closed room? He was certainly faking when he escaped wasn't he? So it at least explains part of it.

As for the closed rooms Lambdadelta said that by now there are only two kind of answers to explain them. Faking deaths and creating the illusion of a closed room through misdirections. The second one hasn't been looked into as much.

My understanding of it was that somebody was supposed to help him escape. It didn't have to be Kanon and it didn't have to use Shkanon or Kanon = Kinzo to have anyone do that. It's Erika's fault for overcomplicating the answer by ruining his other solutions.

Because Battler's escape has nothing to do with his fake death. Fake deaths can be used to construct closed rooms from inside not to escape from them.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Because Battler's escape has nothing to do with his fake death. Fake deaths can be used to construct closed rooms not to escape from them.

No that's wrong. That's exactly what his original plan was wasn't it? Just because Erika killed it doesn't mean we can't use Battler's answer. We understand a couple of ways Kanon could have got there, but the answer is about how he escaped not how he was rescued. As far as I'm concerned all the stuff about Kanon is irrelevant to how he escaped. Kanon just has to be there to replace him inside the room and nothing more.

[Kitsu]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That can't be it if you consider that Ryuukishi said in the interview





The fake deaths is something that was actually hinted in EP5, and confirmed a lot earlier than Battler's escape in EP6.

Ryuukishi's words here are clear. If you understand how Battler escaped from the guestroom in EP6 then you can understand how all the other closed rooms were made.

Maybe it's not Shkanon, but certainly it isn't the fake deaths either.

I'd like to point out anyway that about this we have two different mainstream theories: Shkanon and KinzoKanon.

Neither of those seem to explain the closed rooms at first glance.

While I can understand that you think that fake deaths might not be the key (and I actually partly think that too but I am to lazy to think of a different key) you can't really deny that my above statement kinda killed the 'Shkanon is the key for closed rooms' thingy.
If Shkanon were the key Jessica wouldn't be capable of creating a closed room. I still believe that the key is actually 'make believe' or an 'illusion' (there wasn't a real closed room to begin with)

[Jan-Poo]

What part of my statement is wrong?

The problem is exactly how you said, the problem is how Battler escaped, but more specifically the problem is how Kanon escaped.

And the answer can't possibly be "Kanon faked his own death".

You don't understand that this is the key to solve every closed room being created so far? Beatrice created all of those from inside, and then she found a way to "escape" from those.

That's the trick we must find.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What part of my statement is wrong?

The part I think that's wrong is that how Kanon was able to get there has to be relevant to it. Why is it that the reason Kanon was able to get there must have something to do with creating closed rooms at all?

My point was that originally someone faking their death could've rescued Battler. So therefore all that was orginally needed was a person to set the chain after he escaped. All the escape part has to do with is Battler unsetting the chain and leaving. The rescue part is different.

[LaplaceNoMa]

But, if I remember correctly, Ryukishi's stated key was something that only very people have hit on.

THAT'S IT. GODDAMN IT, YOU ARE CORRECT.

But you know, the problem is that Shkannontrice-fans can't realize that they are the majority. They are the ones being delusioned about the 'key' that they've 'found'. They are not the 'few readers who already know the answer', they are the mainstream of the umineko fanbase, not some elite readers who KNOW and look down on everybody else, sometimes maintaining a nice attitude, but it is obvious that they are almost bursting with their pride about the fact that they've found the answer.

That line from the interview is being used by Shkannontrice-fans very often. Hey guys, please open your eyes and try directing this line towards yourselves.

[Jan-Poo]

And where is that even implied in my statement? Please look at what I actually wrote rather than reading between the lines.


However I strongly disagree on your assessment about Battler's escape. Ryuukishi was definitely talking about the trick beatrice came up with. Look it makes sense, this trick is supposed to explain all the other closed rooms that beatrice made. And it's been said several times in the game that Beatrice surely knows the trick to rescue Battler, and that it's something that only she could do.

You are completely turning a blind eye on several evident hints by trying to explain this with a trick that Battler came up with.

Also do you really think that Ryuukishi already told us esplicitly the trick to solve everything? There's no way that can be true.

Hell and then people say that shkanon can't be true because it's too obvious? At least there isn't anyone that ever mentioned it in the game!


LaplacenoMA. I think you should think twice before making a fool of yourself by calling someone delusional. You are so delusional that you can't even read your info in the right way:

I think so. I think there are many people who have found the 'key' that leads to the truth.
However, it looks as though very few people have actually taken that key, returned to the previous episodes, and put it in the keyhole.

The key has been found by many people already. This is undeniably what Ryuukishi said.
However only a few ever managed to use it the right way.
Nothing strange here.

So even if the key isn't shkanon it still needs to be something that a lot of people have found, not few.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However I strongly disagree on your assessment about Battler's escape. Ryuukishi was definitely talking about the trick beatrice came up with. Look it makes sense, this trick is supposed to explain all the other closed rooms that beatrice made. And it's been said several times in the game that Beatrice surely knows the trick to rescue Battler, and that it's something that only she could do.

Wait. Did he really say that? All I see him saying is if you can solve how Battler escaped you can solve all of the other riddles and closed rooms. I don't see him saying that every closed room has to be solved with the same answer, but I guess the key metaphor does make it sort of look that way.

[Jan-Poo]

Judoh how is that even a "if" if the solution is something that was fed on us? The how Battler could escape by having a person switching place with him is not something that could have possibly be missed by anyone.

If that was the case Ryuukishi would have said: "now that you know how Battler could escape you should be able to explain all the other closed rooms"

[UsagiTenpura]

Laplacenoma

I believe the number of insults you use in your posts indicates you're only "trolling" the board. You haven't yet made an argument that supports anything. All you say is that you think "x theory is stupid and anyone who believes in it are also stupid".
Please stop from being insulting in every single of your post.

The FUNNIEST thing in what you write is that if you actually read everything on this board you'd realize that Shkanontrice fans are the minority.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The FUNNIEST thing in what you write is that if you actually read everything on this board you'd realize that Shkanontrice fans are the minority.

On this board in this thread, maybe.

Statistically across the net where I can see -- not really, at least 50%.