Character Discussion - Kallen

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

So... by your logic, Suzaku has a thing for Shirley and attempted sexual assault means true love.

One scene means hardly anything, several mean development.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

And what was in Eleven? She fought and got captured... Lelouch got pissed that he lost his ace pilot... battle plays out and episode ends.

In 10, which is what I think was intended, she was jealous of C.C. and rushed out to fight, getting herself captured. There's also the scene inside her Knightmare where she talks to herself about Lelouch.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

And yes, well, it helps to think about a person often when the person that visits you most you only know through that person. And there's also the fact she's only in there because she's Zero's soldier. But no, let's read romance everywhere when it's Kalulu and ignore it otherwise.

By the same token, dismissing the obvious and focusing on minutia to compensate is no better.

[cupahe]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

So... by your logic, Suzaku has a thing for Shirley and attempted sexual assault means true love. And what was in Eleven? She fought and got captured... Lelouch got pissed that he lost his ace pilot... battle plays out and episode ends. And yes, well, it helps to think about a person often when the person that visits you most you only know through that person. And there's also the fact she's only in there because she's Zero's soldier. But no, let's read romance everywhere when it's Kalulu and ignore it otherwise.

when shirley and suzaku were ontop of one another you had your traditional cliche awkward situation and they got off one another. when kallen fell on top of lelouch she started talking to him while ontop of him. there wasn't even an awkward situation there they both seemed perfectly fine in the position.

that is not episode 11. in 11 he rushes in to save kallen and doesn't find her and then curses at suzaku for stealing 'everything precious to him, first nunally, and then kallen'. in japanese when you use the words he used, your putting a lot more personal connection to someone than normal.

i'm not dismissing there being nothing there, you can argue that there is something, but it certainly isn;t jealousy liek you originally said. you're also just focusing on the miniscul and turning it into more than is actually there. i can use your very same logic and argue that there was something between cc and charles because he was going to fulfill her wish without asking anything from her. heck why did he have to take tango pose of all things?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

morbos: I've already addressed everything you said, with the exception of a clarification on the 0% part: I find it very unlikely more because of Lelouch than because of Kallen. I don't see Lelouch ending up with anyone. Add to that the fact that I believe Kallen will die, and you can see why I think it's so unlikely. And when did I say I found GinoKallen to be much higher than that, or even likely at all? My only point has been that it wouldn't necessarily be "bad storytelling," as certain haughty individuals have suggested.

Alright, but we'd still have to disagree on that point. The only thing between those two is rivalry.

[FoxxFireArt]

There was that article that was published in Newtype magazine. You can see it here. http://koshimizu.livejournal.com/5369.html#cutid1 Just scroll down and you'll find it. (Be warned some spoilers on the page I linked to. Just episode summaries really.)
Well the titles of all the sections on Kallen were as follows:
Kouzuki Kallen: The warrior that continues believing in Zero.
[From Terrorists To The Black Knights]
[Trusting in Zero? or Lelouch?]
[Live As A Japanese]
[Meeting Nunnallly and Suzaku Again]
[Versus Knight of Rounds Luciano]
[Back in Battlefield!]
The decisive battle takes place on the governor building! Britannia army is about to execute Kallen, but Sayoko shows up. Together they escape with the new Guren.

Someone directed me to a site that had larger scans but no translations. Now I can hardly read Japanese, but I know enough to be able to tell you that Gino's name doesn't appear in this article at all. Not even in the part about "Live As A Japanese". Which surprised me because he was the one who posed that question to Kallen. It does talk about Lelouch in several areas, and even Luciano gets gets his own segment in this article.
I would just think that if Gino was going to have any major role, in respect to Kallen, his name would of been mentioned at least once. This article has several pictures of Lelouch and Kallen, in rather intimate moment. There is even a picture of Luciano.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

One scene means hardly anything, several mean development.

I have pointed out several already.

In 10, which is what I think was intended, she was jealous of C.C. and rushed out to fight, getting herself captured. There's also the scene inside her Knightmare where she talks to herself about Lelouch.

She rushed out to fight because it's her JOB when a super mecha shows up... dear God. And yes, failing her boss wold probably be the first thought in her mind.

By the same token, dismissing the obvious and focusing on minutia to compensate is no better.

Kalulu fans already do this.

Originally Posted by cupahe

when shirley and suzaku were ontop of one another you had your traditional cliche awkward situation and they got off one another. when kallen fell on top of lelouch she started talking to him while ontop of him. there wasn't even an awkward situation there they both seemed perfectly fine in the position.

that is not episode 11. in 11 he rushes in to save kallen and doesn't find her and then curses at suzaku for stealing 'everything precious to him, first nunally, and then kallen'. in japanese when you use the words he used, your putting a lot more personal connection to someone than normal.

i'm not dismissing there being nothing there, you can argue that there is something, but it certainly isn;t jealousy liek you originally said. you're also just focusing on the miniscul and turning it into more than is actually there. i can use your very same logic and argue that there was something between cc and charles because he was going to fulfill her wish without asking anything from her. heck why did he have to take tango pose of all things?

No, Suzaku never got off Shirley in that scene. It ended with Arthur biting him.

Yes, Lelouch considers Kallen a good friend from school, like Milly. This has already been established.

So you're penalising me for doing what every pairing fan does.. and again, see my boldface for my actual point, which you all seem to have missed and turned into a "likelihood" jerkoff session.

morbosfist: I respect that.

FoxxFire: See my jerkoff comment.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

morbos: I've already addressed everything you said, with the exception of a clarification on the 0% part: I find it very unlikely more because of Lelouch than because of Kallen. I don't see Lelouch ending up with anyone. Add to that the fact that I believe Kallen will die, and you can see why I think it's so unlikely. And when did I say I found GinoKallen to be much higher than that, or even likely at all? My only point has been that it wouldn't necessarily be "bad storytelling," as certain haughty individuals have suggested.

Bad storytelling is bad storytelling. Not that this show is immune from it.

IMO they'll need to bring Jane Austen back from the dead to pull off a truly convincing GinoXKallen romance subplot at this point in the show.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by yvj

Bad storytelling is bad storytelling. Not that this show is immune from it.

IMO they'll need to bring Jane Austen back from the dead to pull off a truly convincing GinoXKallen romance subplot at this point in the show.

Ad I'm saying they have enough of a foundation to pull it off, especially if they can get back on top of their R1-form game. This show is known to pull off a lot of things at once very well, especially during the awesome that was R1's endgame. Also, I find Jane Austen to be rather overrated.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

I have pointed out several already.

Pretty sure you only listed one.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

No, Suzaku never got off Shirley in that scene. It ended with Arthur biting him.

The scene lasted ~2 seconds and ended in the traditional anime method of having a guy fall ontop of a girl. I don't really think they are comparable especially because of how it ended, in a joke. When you throw in a running gag into something without any other reason than to have it there, the entire scene is reduced in value. That's just common story-telling method.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

So you're penalising me for doing what every pairing fan does.. and again, see my boldface for my actual point, which you all seem to have missed and turned into a "likelihood" jerkoff session.

Well, I'd honestly argue that FoxxFire put together a few good posts of why there's a good bit occuring between Kallen and Lelouch. Whereas, I could fit everything about Gino on a 2"x2" piece of paper.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

I have pointed out several already.

There's the scene where he flirts in 9, the scene where they talk in 18, and the scene about enjoying the battle in that same episode, and in all three she only shows the slightest of interest in the last.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

She rushed out to fight because it's her JOB when a super mecha shows up... dear God. And yes, failing her boss wold probably be the first thought in her mind.

It's not failing when you don't have orders. She's usually good about waiting.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Kalulu fans already do this.

But they have a lot more and much more obvious points to work with.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Var

Pretty sure you only listed one.

Then you misread.

The scene lasted ~2 seconds and ended in the traditional anime method of having a guy fall ontop of a girl. I don't really think they are comparable especially because of how it ended, in a joke. When you throw in a running gag into something without any other reason than to have it there, the entire scene is reduced in value. That's just common story-telling method.

And the KallenLelouch equivalent ended with the running "C.C. wants her pizza" gag.

Well, I'd honestly argue that FoxxFire put together a few good posts of why there's a good bit occuring between Kallen and Lelouch. Whereas, I could fit everything about Gino on a 2"x2" piece of paper.

Excuse me for not actually caring about the pairing or even thinking it's likely, so I don't go and make gigantic screencaps when my only point is that people who think it can't be done from a storytelling standpoint are being overly haughty.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Ad I'm saying they have enough of a foundation to pull it off, especially if they can get back on top of their R1-form game. This show is known to pull off a lot of things at once very well, especially during the awesome that was R1's endgame. Also, I find Jane Austen to be rather overrated.

See if you use such a loose definition of "Foundation" than anything has a foundation. Toudou might spurn Chiba and go after some Tamaki (sp?) loving. It could happen.

Last episode: Todou: "Sorry Ladies I'm gay for Tamaki."

Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just doesn't work in the context of the show.

And Jane Romance Austin is overrated? Such Blasphemy.

[FoxxFireArt]

Well, Gino and Kallen have had two conversations. The first and longest was mostly about Suzaku.
When Gino showed her that photo album he was talking about Suzaku. How some picture were removed. He thought they were images of Suzaku and Kallen. That it wouldn't look good for a Knight of Round to be seen being close with a 'terrorist', Kallen. Gino has no idea that those images were actually of Nunnally. Gino seemed to get the idea that somehow Kallen could bring back Suzaku's smile, that he's never seen. He doesn't know about Nunnally's attachment to Ashford. Only Suzaku is in on that secret.
Even later Gino notices that Kallen only showed her true face to him when she heard Zero had come, but that he planned to go into battle and kill Zero.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by yvj

See if you use such a loose definition of "Foundation" than anything has a foundation. Toudou might spurn Chiba and go after some Tamaki (sp?) loving. It could happen.

Last episode: Todou: "Sorry Ladies I'm gay for Tamaki."

Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just doesn't work in the context of the show.

And Jane Romance Austin is overrated? Such Blasphemy.

Exaggeration FTL. And please don't get me started on Janie

Foxxy: You missed the battlefield exchange, which I think had the most to suggest about Kallen's feelings toward Gino judging by her initial reaction to "Let's enjoy ourselves." And of course you've gone and turned a blind eye to many things, but that's to be expected since you didn't read my initial posts. You can read just as much in them as you can in any KallenLelouch scene. From s storytelling standpoint, it could be done without being a trainwreck.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Then you misread.

My mistake then.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

And the KallenLelouch equivalent ended with the running "C.C. wants her pizza" gag.

I'd disagree for these reasons: scene lasted for over a minute, had her thinking about getting kissed before falling and as the reason to her fall (not the usual boy and girl fight over object and stumble over one another, which is exactly what happens in Love Hina and the scene between Suzaku and Shirley), they had a nice conversation, and C.C. appearing all timely I'd argue is more because of C.C.'s own jealousy than a completely irrelevant cat biting Suzaku.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Excuse me for not actually caring about the pairing or even thinking it's likely, so I don't go and make gigantic screencaps when my only point is that people who think it can't be done from a storytelling standpoint are being overly haughty.

That's rather hostile, but fine. But you should look at it like this: There are seven episodes left, with a shaking base, no resolution to the Kallen and Lelouch ordeal in sight unless she doesn't see through his lies which would simply be a waste of her development, a good few of those episode will also likely not have Gino and Kallen interacting at all or for more than ~5 seconds at a time. If they actually have long conversations about something then sure, I can see, but so far, they've set up more basis for a rivalry.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Exaggeration FTL. And please don't get me started on Janie

LOL

My point is the "foundation" is one built on sand (severely limited interactions in 18 episodes) And if anything is built upon it, it will have to be hurried and more than likely terrible.

[sparkle_14310]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Gino's not stupid enough to think she'd do that in the middle of a battle. And what royalty?



I thought that's what Nunnally dying was for.

Yeah Nunnally is the most important but considering she's helped Lulu before hopefully she can do it again. And yes Nunnally will always be number one but the more friends Lulu loses the crazier he will get. (Attacking Geass Cult after Shirley's death)

[Discerptor]

Alright, I have to leave soon so I'll try to wrap up my thoughts.

Var:

SuzakuShirley scene was more than a minute, granted most of it was the whole "I'll call Lulu to ask him how he feels about you" thing. The same goes for most of the scene Kallen's clumsiness happened in, though. And seeing as the reason Shirley was fighting over the phone was a romantic interest, a position like that interjecting in the middle of those thoughts would be on about the same level... though I don't get where you interpret Kallen's reason for falling being thinking about Lelouch. She got startled. Also, I really don't see C.C. as getting Kallen of all people... if anything, one of the few things that points toward a Kalulu pairing is the fact that Kallen is always jealous of C.C. (as evidenced in audio drama, etc.)

Sorry if I came off as hostile, but it really is a matter of time and the fact I don't actually support GinoKallen. I've only been trying to show that they have enough of something to work with that the storytelling wouldn't be terrible. Yes, there would be some rushing, but I think that goes for any new romance where both sides haven't already expressed interest at this point... so that only leaves ToudouChiba really.

yvj:

I guess I have more faith in Sunrise's ability is all, since they were able to do quite a lot at a hectic pace in R1, and I find Kalulu just as shaky because of the show's direction (very unhappy outcomes seem to be on the horizon) and the fact Lelouch has not expressed romantic interest in Kallen at all. My opinion is that there will be no new romances outside ToudouChiba (see above).

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

though I don't get where you interpret Kallen's reason for falling being thinking about Lelouch. She got startled.

She thought about the kiss, Lelouch interrupted her little daydream, down she went.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

SuzakuShirley scene was more than a minute, granted most of it was the whole "I'll call Lulu to ask him how he feels about you" thing. The same goes for most of the scene Kallen's clumsiness happened in, though. And seeing as the reason Shirley was fighting over the phone was a romantic interest, a position like that interjecting in the middle of those thoughts would be on about the same level... though I don't get where you interpret Kallen's reason for falling being thinking about Lelouch. She got startled. Also, I really don't see C.C. as getting Kallen of all people... if anything, one of the few things that points toward a Kalulu pairing is the fact that Kallen is always jealous of C.C. (as evidenced in audio drama, etc.)

As a writing tool that is what is referred to as a built up or a tease. One close kiss it would be nothing, but two attempts so close. That could be more. She was imagining her almost kiss with Lelouch just as he spoke. Look below in the links for more information.
As a story tool you built or tease for something to at some point have a follow through. If you don't then the scenes with the tease were pretty much pointless and a waste of screen time. The show hasn't been shy about him being kissed in the past. One with Shirley and two with C.C. Kallen is one of the only major female leads he hasn't kissed yet.

Originally Posted by Discerptor

I guess I have more faith in Sunrise's ability is all, since they were able to do quite a lot at a hectic pace in R1, and I find Kalulu just as shaky because of the show's direction (very unhappy outcomes seem to be on the horizon) and the fact Lelouch has not expressed romantic interest in Kallen at all. My opinion is that there will be no new romances outside ToudouChiba (see above).

After the whole slapping incident, when Lelouch called out to the Black Knights in the sub, he didn't call out to Toudo, Ougi, or even C.C. Lelouch called out to Q-1, Kallen.
Lelouch did almost risk having his forces being wiped out when Kallen was captured. His outburst to her shocked everyone, even C.C. After the battle, and XingKu slayed the Eunuch Generals, the first thing Lelouch asked about was Kallen. When he heard Suzaku had taken her he swore to get her back.
If you also saw the extended preview for episode 18 at the very end he calls out that he will save Kallen. Point in fact I think Kallen has had a mention, from Lelouch, is about all the extended previews. I'd have to go back and check to be sure.
Not to mention that we still aren't sure what he was going to say to Kallen before C.C. interupted.

There is also this little presentation I put together a while back.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1881
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1945
I kind of hope I have something to add to it soon.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Sorry if I came off as hostile, but it really is a matter of time and the fact I don't actually support GinoKallen. I've only been trying to show that they have enough of something to work with that the storytelling wouldn't be terrible. Yes, there would be some rushing, but I think that goes for any new romance where both sides haven't already expressed interest at this point... so that only leaves ToudouChiba really.

I'm used to hostility what with being a debater for my college... on things that no sane person ever seems to debate. So not biggy. I'm not really trying to say that GinoxKallen is impossible but we can both agree that it will be at least a little rushed. And really, and honestly, the only way I can see it happen without it feeling crowbarred in is if, in these next seven episodes, there is a solid amount of focus on Kallen and Gino... and really, I don't see that happening. So in a story where I've found everything to have been adequately foreshadowed and built up, this form of rushing at the end would just leave a sour, if not downright bad, taste in my mouth.

If Kallen follows Lelouch then the pairing becomes nothing short of impossible because at that point she threw aside everything for Lelouch, so her just ditching him for Gino would honestly seem like vomit. If she doesn't follow him then it will have the same possibility it has now, about the same as SuzakuxKallen... though I'd argue less. As I'm still not sure whether or not Gino actually thinks Kallen meant something to Suzaku or not. IIRC, when he talked about the missing pictures, his japanese form used would imply that Suzaku and Kallen were a 'couple'. Though that could just be my hearing.

So in the end, really, it depends on whether or not Kallen's development towards finding the real Lelouch had any actual point to it. If it did, she follows and GinoxKallen dies with the fish that I just gutted for dinner. If it meant nothing and was there just to 'have Kallen on screen' then it gets a better chance because at that point they may very well have done all that just to have her meet Gino... which is, in and of itself, a rather forced series of circumstances. So you can likely see why I'd have a hard time swallowing it because it rides on the basis that Kallen's development this season meant... just about nothing.