[Manga] Naruto Chapter 615 Discussion Thread

[Eragon]

^Then he should damn say that he's out for revenge and go after Kakashi. He is a selfish character that thinks he's a messiah. His motivations are misplaced

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Eragon

^Then he should damn say that he's out for revenge and go after Kakashi. He is a selfish character that thinks he's a messiah. His motivations are misplaced

He already said that he doesn't care about killing Kakashi. Obito has been trying to hide his emotions ever since Rin was killed as a way to avoid confronting her death and saw Madara's objective as a literal mean to do it. My guess is that he couldn't bring himself to kill Kakashi when he was younger because he could understand Kakashi's feelings (although he gives different reasons to Madara).

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

He did a turn-around on his ideals, but he never stopped or hesitated in implementing them into life (until recently)

Naruto didn't either, until this chapter. But unlike Sasuke, he didn't 180 his ideals.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by GDB

Maybe if Sasuke had comrades, he might care about their deaths. As it is, he has some stooges. And besides, you can't say he doesn't falter considering he 180'd on his ideals and went from "Kill Itachi" to "Avenge Itachi", as it were.

His ideals didn't change, only the target of his revenge changed because the circumstances changed. If he had said "well I just wanted to kill Itachi so it doesn't make any difference if you tell me that other people forced him to do it now, I did what I had to do so I'ma call it a day". If he stayed the same after hearing that stuff then he would be really crazy.

[vansonbee]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Kishi shits on his characters as much as Kubo does.

But at least Kubo treats his female characters somewhat decently; Kishi shits on them the hardest.

Kishi believes in women equality and enjoying his fetish.

Originally Posted by MAX_COLA_POWER!

At least Naruto turns his spirals into lethal shiny destructo disc nukes. Obito's are just symbolisms of the black hole of unpopped cherry man despair, like Aporia from Yu-gi-oh 5Ds, but every more zetsuboer.

I glance at your post and when I saw 5D's, I was expecting Yusei and his bike doing it and while Aki cries in the corner.

Originally Posted by GDB

Maybe if Sasuke had comrades, he might care about their deaths. As it is, he has some stooges. And besides, you can't say he doesn't falter considering he 180'd on his ideals and went from "Kill Itachi" to "Avenge Itachi", as it were.

I know right?

This whole Ninja War is dragging and we don't see Sasuke anymore. Maybe its for the best. Maybe Kishi can written Sasuke out of exisiences and Ino x Sakura can happen.

[Casshern]

Well, for me at least, I hope that Sasuke will be the final boss. Obito is on the verge of being washed up, and Madara, apart from being powerful, doesn't seem to have much going for him in terms of character and motives. If the underlying theme of this series is that love will break the cycle of hatred, then Sasuke wears the mantle of hatred much better than Madara and Obito imo.

Ideally I'd like to see Sasuke unsealing Hashirama from the death god to take out Madara.

[kache]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

He already said that he doesn't care about killing Kakashi. Obito has been trying to hide his emotions ever since Rin was killed as a way to avoid confronting her death and saw Madara's objective as a literal mean to do it. My guess is that he couldn't bring himself to kill Kakashi when he was younger because he could understand Kakashi's feelings (although he gives different reasons to Madara).

I'm confused: didn't he say he wants to make a new world so he could be back together with Rin?
Afterall killing Kakashi wouldn't bring her back anyway...

[Mad Pierrot]

Exactly, Obito is not fighting Kakashi for personal reasons but for his plans.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Funny to see Sakura's face on page 9, maybe she's thinking that Hinata's speech to Naruto was so much better than the fake thing Sakura did

[mayumi]

^sakura needs to up her TNJ. she always sucked compared to hinata even in part 1.

[ranchan13]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Funny to see Sakura's face on page 9, maybe she's thinking that Hinata's speech to Naruto was so much better than the fake thing Sakura did

I think Sakura was only in that frame because Kishi realized that one of his main characters hadn't been shown in several chapters.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

How the hell is Sasuke a fail character?

There's much to go on, but i think the biggest failure would be how much nonsense his motivation and goals are... He wants to avenge itachi at this point but what makes it so much nonsense is the fact that he is perverting everything Itachi fought and died for... Itachi suffered because he loved both Kohona nad sasuke and ultimately his goal was to take a horrible situation he could not control and twist it so that at the very least sasuke could live a happy life in kohona. Destroying Kohona is the next to last thing he ever wanted and that's precisely what sasuke is trying to do; And Itachi never wanting him to become this bitter avenger either... Itachi himself gets negative points for not taking a chance to slap some sense into sasuke

Really, Sasuke used to just come off as rather kind of boring to watch, but he's only gotten worst since his fight with itachi.

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

Yeah, maybe it was better to keep him dead, but introducing another character instead of him would be harder. He's not a fail of a character -just not perfectly fitting plot device.

I think everyone would have been more accepting if they had just used madara as the main villain. Hell the guy is already a partner in this whole scheme, is obito even necessary?

Honestly, i originally liked the idea of Tobi being obito, but I also preferred Tobi back when he was a lovable idiot and not a bitter evil mastermind. Might have liked him better as an evil minion rather than a main villain

Originally Posted by Casshern

Well, for me at least, I hope that Sasuke will be the final boss.

If I recall, Kishi has said that would be the final battle; but like i said i can't really see how Kishi can segway to that fight. I mean after Naruto saves the world from a villian with a plan decades in the making, Sasuke seems like a real step down. Honestly, both Obito and Sasuke are out for revenge, but sasuke comes off as being even more petty and mindless than Obito. They are both terrible villians, though obito atleast had a rather natural transition to its final fight, where as sasuke might feel a bit more forced.

Originally Posted by mayumi

^sakura needs to up her TNJ. she always sucked compared to hinata even in part 1.

I wouldn't say that... Hinata was only better than Sakura in that she wasn't as annoying as sakura and she had a moe-factor going for her. However Sakura really stepped up early on in part 2; there was high hopes for her character which made her better than the non-existant hinata who still only had nothing more then moe-factor working for her... and then after sasori, she did nothing and then got derailed undoing everything she gained; once again she had become downright unlikable.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

If I recall, Kishi has said that would be the final battle;

He also said 2011 and 2012 would be, on separate recurring occasions, the year of Kakashi. And Sakura, I believe. Neither happened.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by GDB

He also said 2011 and 2012 would be, on separate recurring occasions, the year of Kakashi. And Sakura, I believe. Neither happened.

Don't know where you got that but during 2012 in a Shonen Jump Alpha he said the series was getting near its climax and in an ANN article Kishimoto talked about his plans for the release of the final chapter: 2013 is the final year of Naruto. *manly tears fall*

[Poetic Justice]

Anyone else feel Kishi should have shown a bigger reaction from team Gai than just the one panel, They obviously care more about Neji as a team mate than Naruto.

[DragoZERO]

Good chapter. Obvoiusly love the attention to Hinata. I won't hold my breath for much more attention to it since this is an action shonen series and all.

And best comment from RC: http://randomc.net/2012/12/27/naruto...comment-918089

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by GDB

He also said 2011 and 2012 would be, on separate recurring occasions, the year of Kakashi. And Sakura, I believe. Neither happened.

If Tobi being Obito doesn't make it the year of Kakashi then i don't know what does.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by GDB

And besides, you can't say he doesn't falter considering he 180'd on his ideals and went from "Kill Itachi" to "Avenge Itachi", as it were.

Thats not putting it in perspecitve : /

What Sasuke really wanted was to persue those truly responsible for the massacre. It happened to be that Itachi was also a victim in this ordeal, so while Sasuke's target may have changed, his overall quest for revenge has not. Revenge is probably the only thing Sasuke has not faltered on. He only breifly came close duirng his time in Konoha while befriending team 7; but Itachi "strenghened" Sasuke's resolve during his visit.

Originally Posted by GDB

Naruto didn't either, until this chapter. But unlike Sasuke, he didn't 180 his ideals.

This is utter BS. Naruto was ready to give up his ideals and gave into hatred during the Pein fight, before Minato saved him. It seems the same thing has happened here, after Naruto experiences a deep loss of a friend or loved one. Luckily there has always been someone nearby to save him from giving in. In Sasuke's case, he was essentially pushed over the edge.

Naruto himself even acknowledges that he could have easily ended up in Sasuke's shoes, had certain circumstances been different. But I guess some Naruto fans wont let little things like common sense, the authors messages, or facts get in the way of their argument. It never ceases to amaze me how people allow their bias to blind them from even the most blatant things in the manga : /

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Thats not putting it in perspecitve : /

What Sasuke really wanted was to persue those truly responsible for the massacre. It happened to be that Itachi was also a victim in this ordeal, so while Sasuke's target may have changed, his overall quest for revenge has not. Revenge is probably the only thing Sasuke has not faltered on. He only breifly came close duirng his time in Konoha while befriending team 7; but Itachi "strenghened" Sasuke's resolve during his visit.

I wouldn't say that... namely sasuke has been on a constant downward spiral. While sasuke has always been about vengenace, he has changed his views and gotten more extreme as there are different degrees of vengeance

At first he was an avenger, going ONLY after the killer of his family; it was sorta of like vigilante justice but with hint of bitter hatred. Considering he still actually did care about those around him he seemed to stay as a hero though leaning on the anti-hero line... Then he took his first step down which was pursuing his vengenace by any means which included allying himself with villians and fighting his friends if need be; at this point he clearly crossed the line to being an anti-hero... he then took another step down when he seemed to not care about hurting his friends and innocent poeple in pursuit of his vengance. And then after he killed itachi, he just went bat shit loco; he's not longer just going after those responsible, he is now killing EVERYONE regardless of how innocent they may be... Sasuke is full on villain at this point. heck you can compare part 1 sasuke to part 2; at the end of part 1, he was refusing to kill naruto even though he thought it would advance his battle against itachi... but can you see sasuke doing the same? no the part 2 sasuke will do anything; heck he orginally refused to use itachi's eyes but after his encounter with naruto he decided to use them. He started out a hero and ended up as a villian; you don't make that kind of transition without a few compromises in principles.

Ya and iTachi screwed up horribly... not only for not slapping some sense into sasuke when he had a chance, but for setting sasuke on this path in the first place. Really Itachi was a man that hated war, he knows well enough that a man of peace can become plenty strong; and yet he forced sasuke on the path of hatred which in turn led to this downward spiral... really it's so stupid that i once had a whole thought out theory about how the concept of Itachi actually being a good guy was nothing more than a massive retcon that kishi came up with after part 1.

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Anyone else feel Kishi should have shown a bigger reaction from team Gai than just the one panel, They obviously care more about Neji as a team mate than Naruto.

Yes that is problematic... Neji dies and yet half the people closest to him don't get a single moment
Again, i feel like Iruka would have made a better sacrifice... If this is supposed to be about Naruto, he's one character you can kill off that would not warrant significant focus on anyone else since Naruto seems to be the only really close relationship he had. Sure he taught the others, but he never came off as being all that close to any of them. Plus Obito did mention something about Naruto loosing all those that acknowledged him and thus iruka would have been most poetic since he was the first to aknowledge Naruto... but kishi preferred to force a ship

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I wouldn't say that... namely sasuke has been on a constant downward spiral. While sasuke has always been about vengenace, he has changed his views and gotten more extreme as there are different degrees of vengeance

I think there is a misunderstanding. The post you've quoted by me is replying specifically to the bolded text regarding Sasuke's alleged "180" from revenge on Itachi to avenging Itachi. Sasuke's decadence is really besides my point; I was mainly concerned with his neverending resolve for revenge, and wanted to illustrate that Sasuke merely changing targets doesn't imply his resolve for revenge has faltered.

The fact of the matter is that from his introduction, Sasuke sought out revenge for his loss, and as of recently, even those who so much as benefit from his loss(the villagers who enjoyed a peaceful life thanks to Itachi's help in avoiding a coup). Even now, while on a new quest for the "truth about everything", Sasuke still maintains that he intends to realize his revenge. I definetely agree that he has been on a moral decline, but that really wasn't my post's concern.