Learning Japanese

[mendokusa]

toRaiga
(2)is outotu.

凸totuレンズconvex lens
凹ouレンズconcave lens

tosonotme_9FedriqSama


生きる→生きないikinai
行く　→行かないikanai
include "nai"like ikinai and ikanai,
"ki"and "ka" before "n" are "?a",so do Onnbinn.
生きるis "ki",so don't onnbinn.生きてis right.
行くis "ka",so do onnbinn.
いいて
not easy to say
いいて→いって


without permission
許可なしで、断らないで
but when the sentence say,often without permission,so don't include the sentence.


addition for onnbinn,

there is ウ音便 in 大阪弁
～ワナイ(買わない）
買いて→買うて(koute for歴史的仮名遣い）

in Tokyo
not easy to say
買いて→買って
normal japanese is 買って

[RandomGuy]

Just to clarify a couple of things:

Originally Posted by Raiga

Hm, looks like the modern Chinese tu sound came into Japanese as とつ... both in this case with 凸 (which is tu1 in Chinese) and 突然 (which is tu1ran2 in Chinese). I'll file that away in my memory of common Chinese/Japanese sound parallels.

the つ in the Japanese on'yomi is actually representative of a lost final-consonant, t, in Middle Chinese. Based in part on old rhyme dictionaries, the pronunciation of 凸 has been reconstructed as *dwot and 突 as *t(h)wot during the middle of the first millennium A.D., when Chinese writing first reached Japan in comprehensive fashion. Since Japanese is a moraic language that originally lacked any standalone consonants (including ん), the syllable つ (though not the kana, since it didn't exist yet) was used to represent the final consonant instead.

On a different note, let me attempt to clarify mendokusa's explanation: Onbin (音便, "euphony")　is a way of illustrating the sound changes that caused verbs whose root ends in a consonant to go from having four stems (yodan) to five (godan). It's useful to learners of Japanese in order to explain the irregularities in an otherwise highly regular verb paradigm. As mendokusa mentioned, there are four types in Standard Japanese (and five in Kansai-ben), which dictate transformations to the adverbial stem (ren'youkei) when followed by the verb suffix -て and its derivatives (in the modern language, just -たり, -たら and -た).

• I-type shift (イ音便, i-onbin): K- and G-class yodan verbs lose the /k/ sound entirely, creating a stem ending in -/i/ rather than -/ki/. G-class verbs also transfer the voicing of the now-absent /g/ over to て. Thus ききて (from 聞く) becomes きいて, かきて (from 書く) becomes かいて, とぎて　(from 研ぐ) becomes といで, etc. (行く alone underwent the geminate shift instead, and is thus slightly irregular in the modern language.)
  
• No change (無音便, muonbin): As the name suggests, for S-stem yodan verbs there is no change. かして (from 貸す), おして (from 押す), along with all others of their type, remain the same.
  
• Nasal shift (撥音便, hatsuonbin): M-, B-, and N-class yodan verbs lose the /i/ sound in the ending, and the remaining bare consonant assimilates to a syllabic /ɴ/, which in turn converts /t/ to /d/ through prenasalization. Thus よみて (from 読む) becomes よんで, よびて (from 呼ぶ) also becomes よんで, and しにて (from 死ぬ) becomes しんで.
  
• Geminate shift (促音便, sokuonbin): T, R, and (in Standard Japanese) W-class yodan verbs lose the /i/ from their ending, and the remaining bare consonant is reanalysed as a doubling of the /t/ that comes after. So, たちて (from 立つ) becomes たって, さりて (from 去る) becomes さって, and (again, in Standard Japanese) かひて (from 買ふ/買う) becomes かって. For some reason, the K-class verb 行く also fits in this category, with Classical ゆきて transforming to modern いって.
  
• U-type shift (ウ音便, u-onbin): in Kansai-ben only, W-class yodan verbs shift from the normal adverbial ending /i/, back to the attributive/conclusive ending /u/. Any /au/ sequence resulting from this shifts to /oː/, while /iu/ sequences change to /juː/. This process yields ゆうて from 言う/言ふ (originally いひて), つこうて from 使う/使ふ (originally つかひて), and こうて from 買う/買ふ (originally かひて). However, the verb 会う appears to have undergone the geminate shift (as in the Standard language), becoming あって.

And I think I've managed once again to make a topic more confusing, not less. I need to figure out a way to explain stuff without so much jargon...

[mendokusa]

I'm sorry,lacking,and not easy to understand.

Also,there is ウ音便 on old japanere writing.
三寸ばかりなる人、うつくしうていたり。
（身長が）三寸（9cm）ほどの人が可愛らしい姿でいた。

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by mendokusa

I'm sorry,lacking,and not easy to understand.

Also,there is ウ音便 on old japanere writing.
三寸ばかりなる人、うつくしうていたり。
（身長が）三寸（9cm）ほどの人が可愛らしい姿でいた。

No, no, I thought it was a useful explanation. Linguistics always has a habit of getting technical really quickly, so partial translations from Japanese are frequently as much help as anything in English. I'm trying to work on explaining things in terms everyone can understand... and not doing that well, I'm afraid.

You have a point about the U-shift in the adverbial form of adjectives, as well; it still survives in phrases with (お)＿＿＿＿ございます, such as おはよう (from 早い) and ありがとう (ありがたい). Of course, this particular shift is still seen in Kansai-ben, as well (though it's hard for me to tell exactly how prevalent it still is; people frequently seem to omit the う entirely).

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

the つ in the Japanese on'yomi is actually representative of a lost final-consonant, t, in Middle Chinese. Based in part on old rhyme dictionaries, the pronunciation of 凸 has been reconstructed as *dwot and 突 as *t(h)wot during the middle of the first millennium A.D., when Chinese writing first reached Japan in comprehensive fashion. Since Japanese is a moraic language that originally lacked any standalone consonants (including ん), the syllable つ (though not the kana, since it didn't exist yet) was used to represent the final consonant instead.

Ahh, that's interesting. Yeah I figured it'd have something to do with what Chinese was like at the time it came into Japanese, which is why I specified modern Chinese in my post. Afraid I don't know much at all about ancient Chinese, though, which would probably help... :\

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Arigatou mendokusa san and Random guy for you help on "onnbinn"...changes....since its a part of regular speech for verb changing....knowing about it was a major help....

@ Random guy....yea m8 u need to cut down some jargons a little ...but u used romanji in brackets before that made it understandable a little...

@ both

I tried doing some onnbinn on similar sounding verbs but totally
failed....do similar sounding verbs go same onnbinn conversions?　
kiku （聞く） --- to listen
kuru （来る） --- to come
kuru (繰る) --- to reel
Kiru (着る) --- to wear
Kiru (切る) --- to cut
Kau (買う) --- to buy

Sorry if I am causing problems for you guys but since verb conjugations is an important part of speech I want to know more from people rather than just hogging all up in my head from internet or books...
I remember better when I ask doubts and someone clarifies it.

聞く -> as "random guy" said it'll be ききて->きいて and with -eru (聞こえる) kikoeru can it go as きこえて-> きこって?　
来る -> as "mendokusa" said きいて->きって can it also get converted to きて...I read it on some website...wanted to make sure
繰る -> ? will this go same as きいて->きって
着る -> ? will this go as きいて->きって can it go as きせて-> きせって? (but this is for 着せる I guess)
切る -> ? will this go as きいて->きって can it go as かるって?
買う -> かいて→ かって as "mendokusa" said

[nikorai]

sonotme_9FedriqSama
Why do you need to complicate things so badly? I personally had a headache after looking at your examples.

聞こえる（きこえる） is an 'ichidan' verb　（下shimo一段活用）. The above mentioned onnbinn applies only to godan verbs.
来る（くる） is an irregular verb to begin with, so it becomes 'kite' in this case.
繰る（くる） is on the other hand, a 'godan' verb　（五段活用）, so the general rule applies. I.e. it's 繰って
　－　くって.

着る（きる）－ is another ichidan verb　（上kami一段活用）, same rules apply as with 'kikoeru' (see above)
切る（きる）－ is a godan verb　 (see above again).

[mendokusa]

聞く→聞かない→聞いて (カ行５段活用）
来kuる→来koない→来kiて　（カ行変格活用）
繰る→繰らない→繰って　　　（ラ行５段活用）
着る→着kiない→着て　　　（カ行上一段活用）
切る→切らない→切って　　（ラ行５段活用）
買う→買わない→買って（買うて）　　（ワ行５段活用）

聞くand 聞こえる are not same.

聞こえる→聞こえない→聞こえて　　（ヤ行下一段活用）
（old japanere's "聞こゆ”）

聞いてください（聞く listen）
please listen it.
聞こえますか？（聞こえるhear）
Can you hear me?

着せる→着せない→着せて　（サ行下一段活用）

服を着ます。（着る）
子供に服を着せます。（着せる）

[nikorai]

mendokusa
Thanks for more examples and verb classification based on gojuuon. 'Kikoeru' is put under ヤ行. I wouldn't figure that myself.　Same goes for verbs ending with 'u' which are labeled as 'wa-gyou katsuyou'.

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

@nikorai "Why do you need to complicate things so badly? I personally had a headache after looking at your examples."

lol...sorry but if I don't clear up my doubts about confusing stuff...I won't even able to understand easy stuff....But I hope that helped clear some of your doubts as well

Arigatou mendokusa san....that was a helpful explaination....I hope I didn't caused you much trouble...

[mendokusa]

should learn how to change verb before 音便.
五段活用
上一段活用
下一段活用
カ行変格活用　来る
サ行変格活用 -する、する

ごめんなさい、カ行とサ行が逆だったから直した。

old japanese writing
四段活用
上一段活用
上二段活用
下一段活用
下二段活用
ナ行変格活用
ラ行変格活用
サ行変格活用
カ行変格活用

hun,don't need to learn old japanese writing.
so,less than old.

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

@mendokusa

はい...了解した、先生...習います...

I hope that's a correct sentence

[nikorai]

Maybe just change it a little
了解しました、先生!　(or　先生、了解です）　習ってみます。

Because it looks to me like "a sensei who said roger" instead of the desired "I got you, sensei".

[mendokusa]

未然形（まだしていない）
～ない、～よう（～う）
連用形（用言＜動詞、形容詞、形容動詞＞に繋がる）
～ます、～て、～た
終止形（辞書に載っている形）
～。
連体形（体言<名詞、代名詞>に繋がる）
～こと
仮定形（仮定する）
～ば
命令形（命令する）
～！

未然、連用、終始、連体、仮定、命令
貸す（sa行五段活用）
さandそ、し、す、す、せ、せ
見miる（上一段活用）
み、み、みる、みる、みれ、みれ
聞こえる（下一段活用）
え、え、える、える、えれ、えれ

上一段活用 and 下一段活用 are same.
●、●、●る、●る、●れ、●れ
●is "?i",so "上一段"
●is "?e",so "下一段"

when ●a行五段活用,
●a and　●o,●i,●u,●u,●e,●e

未然形（～ない）is difference by kind of 活用.
貸saない
miない
聞こeない
so,before ない,a is 五段、i is 上一段、e is 下一段.

only するand 来るare special verb for change.
する
し、し、する、する、すれ、しろ
来る
こ、き、くる、くる、くれ、こい

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Originally Posted by nikorai

Maybe just change it a little
了解しました、先生!　(or　先生、了解です）　習ってみます。

Because it looks to me like "a sensei who said roger" instead of the desired "I got you, sensei".

oh sorry didn't thought of punctuations... a comma is appropriate i suppose

Mendokusa san...I'll note down your explaination about imperfective form, conjugative form etc...and go through it later...I'm still working on verbs....so it may take time....I don't want to rush...I'll learn slowly

[mendokusa]

hum,
turtle walk slowly,but can walk on long way because have lived for 10000 years.

[Alchemist007]

"Suki ni suru" roughly means "do what you like" but would "suki de suru" mean "do it as you like it?" Or would you have to be more specific (for minimal understanding).

[mendokusa]

to Alchemist007
Suki ni suru.(=shitai youni suru.)
I decide whatever I hope.

often use this sentence when there is something to select.

[seaghyn16]

皆さん、現在、私は東京で日本語を勉強しています。今年の１２月に、日本語能力試験を受けるつもりです。そ のために、日本語学校に通っています。後は自分で一生懸命勉強しています。

皆さん、夏休みに何をしたいですか？

Spoiler for English Version of Above:

Currently, I am studying Japanese in Tokyo. I plan to take the Japanese Level Placement Test this year in December. For this goal, I'm going to a Japanese Language School. Also, I'm studying all I can on my own.

What do you want to do over Summer Break?

To the Question I asked about summer break, I was just thinking, if we used Japanese to have a form of dialogue as well, it might be useful for learning. That way it's not just grammer, but also putting it into practice.

I'm currently just starting the Intermediate Level at my school.

答えは日本語でお願いします

Please respond in Japanese.

よろしくお願いします

[mendokusa]

僕は友人らと旅に出かけようと思います。
今どこへ行こうか検討中ですが、
日本国内の中部か近畿かで探しています。

8月に東方プロジェクトの製品版が出るので、それもクリアしたいです。

たぶん、暇しているんで、msnメッセンジャーで話をする人も増やせたらなって思ってます。