Proposal: The AnimeSuki Forums Theme Change

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

I can say from experience that it would not be so hard to perform this action/update, due to my friend owning some forums having it already.

We have a number of customizations/plugins that are very specific to our site. These add complications both when trying to implement new skins or upgrading to different versions of the base software. So even if it may have been easy for other sites, it may still be difficult to us.

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

In short, could the Blue skin be set on 1st-time Default instead of the Yellow one?

Why...? There's nothing inherently superior about the blue theme vs. the beige theme. It's just a preference.

And also...

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

I do agree that vBulletin 3 is good for what you can find around, but creating your own forum software (which is not rare) would be a good call.

I don't know how much time you think the staff have between their real-life jobs and whatever time is left for their hobbies, but creating your own forum software is not a small project. Unless you're actually planning on making this a business, there seems to be very little motivation to reinventing the wheel.


All in all, while I'm not opposed to the idea of adding some additional theme options for people to choose from (and I like the idea of a mobile skin/design), I hope that people will be attracted to this site for the quality of the discussion, not just because of a snappy modern design.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

We have a number of customizations/plugins that are very specific to our site. These add complications both when trying to implement new skins or upgrading to different versions of the base software. So even if it may have been easy for other sites, it may still be difficult to us.

This is a yet another big draw-back.
If a site is unable or is hard to have a specific flow of updates coming and going if they want them to, it just comes to a lot of rejections of new ideas, those coming from Members and Staff alike. Expanding the horizon of what you can do is crucial for sites with overall high activity.

Why...? There's nothing inherently superior about the blue theme vs. the beige theme. It's just a preference.

Indeed it is, but can you say that it attracts a bigger part to stay on the forums for at least 10 seconds than the blue one?
I think it would be quite the opposite, due to the beige color in general showing off classic, elegance, ... And it all just doesn't fit with how everything has thin lines, sharp 90 degree corners, ... But then again, that is my personal opinion. I'm just trying to express what people nowadays would probably want and what they wouldn't be so pleased to see when hearing the keywords "Anime" and "Forums" and then seeing the current default theme.

And also...
I don't know how much time you think the staff have between their real-life jobs and whatever time is left for their hobbies, but creating your own forum software is not a small project. Unless you're actually planning on making this a business, there seems to be very little motivation to reinventing the wheel.

You do have a point there, scratch what I've said.
There are already many awesome themes out there, the issue might come when trying to upload them on the site because of the vBulletin.
Could you try uploading a theme called Scaped v4 for a test? I could get the theme.

All in all, while I'm not opposed to the idea of adding some additional theme options for people to choose from (and I like the idea of a mobile skin/design), I hope that people will be attracted to this site for the quality of the discussion, not just because of a snappy modern design.

I've posted this in pretty much every message on this thread, the content and the community of the AS Forums are great, and would sure make the people stay. However, nowadays, the first Visual Impression is what even gets the members to join and check the Forums out. After that is achieved, I'm sure that the members would stay, but what we want to prevent is Guests from visiting the site and being repeled from it because of the graphical design and theme in general.

It indeed is all down to personal opinion, but how many of the anime fans do you think prefer classic over energetic?

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

This is a yet another big draw-back.
If a site is unable or is hard to have a specific flow of updates coming and going if they want them to, it just comes to a lot of rejections of new ideas, those coming from Members and Staff alike. Expanding the horizon of what you can do is crucial for sites with overall high activity.

The new ideas you mention may very well be the cause of the specific customizations and plug-ins that complicate their upgrade process. I wouldn't be suprised if the plugins relentlessflame is mentioning were at least partly due to members requesting new forum features and functionality.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

The new ideas you mention may very well be the cause of the specific customizations and plug-ins that complicate their upgrade process. I wouldn't be suprised if the plugins relentlessflame is mentioning were at least partly due to members requesting new forum features and functionality.

It was already said quite a lot of times that the main issue is the "old" vBulletin 3, to which members cannot really help or effect in any way.
Most plugins are not being released for such versions any more, plus, the forums are practically using quite a lot of features this version has to offer already. Comparing with new versions, that is not really a lot, but still has the crucial parts.

You first need a core platform on which you can run various things with a flow, regardless on how big those things are. I honestly do not think it is members' fault for many ideas and suggestions being rejected when the reason for rejection is: "We are currently unable to pull that off/It would be hard for us to currently to pull that off".

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

I honestly do not think it is members' fault for many ideas and suggestions being rejected when the reason for rejection is: "We are currently unable to pull that off/It would be hard for us to currently to pull that off".

You're sort of missing the undercurrent of this comment: the benefit has to be significant enough to overcome the effort involved. Even if we did move onto a different platform, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden we're going to start trying all sorts of random things just because someone requests it. There has to be a clear and apparent benefit that overcomes the effort.

If there's anything that's important enough, we could build it even on this vBulletin 3 platform. There are actually still a ton of plug-ins for this software because it's still actively in use in a lot of places not just here. But, we also have our own specific plug-ins and customizations that aren't necessarily compatible with other plug-ins, and everything requires testing and validation. These existing customizations were made at the request of the forum members and because one or more of the members of the staff was convinced enough that it was worth the effort that they put in the time to get it done.

So anyway, there are a lot of reasons why requested changes aren't approved, and being on vBulletin 3 is only one part of it. It's certainly not the only thing, or even the main thing, stopping a change from being approved. It is, however, enough of a deterrent to making changes where the benefit is perceived to be minimal or arbitrary.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You're sort of missing the undercurrent of this comment: the benefit has to be significant enough to overcome the effort involved. Even if we did move onto a different platform, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden we're going to start trying all sorts of random things just because someone requests it. There has to be a clear and apparent benefit that overcomes the effort.

I never expected everything suggested by the community to be on the to-do list.
However, I can assure you that having a better starting source and platform will allow you to put less effort in when trying to update/add something new and by that put more suggestions that get mass-support into action, even those that are not so crucial and necessary.
It would be nice to have it possible for suggestions that get quite a lot of support by the community to be in-put, even if they are not really top priority. I don't want to be stubborn about these kind of things here, I'm just saying that a good starting core could make the future maintaining and changes much faster and easier to be done, or even be done in the first place.

If there's anything that's important enough, we could build it even on this vBulletin 3 platform. There are actually still a ton of plug-ins for this software because it's still actively in use in a lot of places not just here. But, we also have our own specific plug-ins and customizations that aren't necessarily compatible with other plug-ins, and everything requires testing and validation. These existing customizations were made at the request of the forum members and because one or more of the members of the staff was convinced enough that it was worth the effort that they put in the time to get it done.

Yeah, I get the current position, just keep in mind that over time, things get upgraded and are made easier to use. That goes especially for things related to the Internet. From Internet shopping, accessing sites, communicating, to website configuration and in the end, what we are focusing on - the Forums.

So anyway, there are a lot of reasons why requested changes aren't approved, and being on vBulletin 3 is only one part of it. It's certainly not the only thing, or even the main thing, stopping a change from being approved. It is, however, enough of a deterrent to making changes where the benefit is perceived to be minimal or arbitrary.

So, keeping things short, looking at how AnimeSuki Forums are now, only the most needed and at the same time supported ideas will be put into action.
I understand, I just hope that in the future, AS Forums will go more with the flow. By that I do not mean that every suggestion should be made real, but to even have the ability that if you would want to actually in-put that suggestion, reason for that being anything, you would be able to do so and not put that much effort in it (Unless, of course, we are speaking of a bigger-than-usual change).

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

However, I can assure you that having a better starting source and platform will allow you to put less effort in when trying to update/add something new and by that put more suggestions that get mass-support into action, even those that are not so crucial and necessary.

I think its quite clear that they do not consider switching platforms worth the effort at this time, as per reasons already given to you multiple times. I also don't see how you are in a position to “assure” much of anything about their site.

It would be nice to have it possible for suggestions that get quite a lot of support by the community to be in-put, even if they are not really top priority. I don't want to be stubborn about these kind of things here, I'm just saying that a good starting core could make the future maintaining and changes much faster and easier to be done, or even be done in the first place.

I don't see why you're being so stubborn. They said its not worth the effort at this time so why don't you just leave it alone? Are you trying to coax your way to become part of the staff or something?

Yeah, I get the current position, just keep in mind that over time, things get upgraded and are made easier to use. That goes especially for things related to the Internet. From Internet shopping, accessing sites, communicating, to website configuration and in the end, what we are focusing on - the Forums.

I think this is pretty arrogant of you. The staff are maintaining a pretty sizable forum that has been around over a decade –and only on their free time. I think by now, they should be quite aware of the nuances of upgrades and how they affect Internet applications in general (at the very least a forum, one of the oldest Internet applications).

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

There are many GFX Designers out there, I could find a few to do the job for free (I'm quite powerful on some other places...)

lol where, that forum with ~400 users?

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by Owlman

I think its quite clear that they do not consider switching platforms worth the effort at this time, as per reasons already given to you multiple times. I also don't see how you are in a position to “assure” much of anything about their site.

I have said that I understand the current position of the site, but on an active site, things mustn't be carved into stone forever.
Also, I'll say this only once, so listen carefully. I have said that this is a discussion thread, meaning that I open up possibilities to which members of the community post their opinions on, I do not want things done directly. If you disagree, fine. If there are draw-backs, fine. Say so, but don't be aggressive if someone is just sharing ideas.

I don't see why you're being so stubborn. They said its not worth the effort at this time so why don't you just leave it alone? Are you trying to coax your way to become part of the staff or something?

I am trying to share ideas that could be included in the future.
Once again, I am opening up a discussion with my threads, not demanding changes.
As for trying to become a part of the Staff, I haven't really thought about that, but I did want and still do want to add links to unlicensed anime episodes' torrents (Have already had a chat about that). Anyhow, that is my personal thing and is off-topic. On short, I'm not trying to look sweet in front of the Admins.

I think this is pretty arrogant of you. The staff are maintaining a pretty sizable forum that has been around over a decade –and only on their free time. I think by now, they should be quite aware of the nuances of upgrades and how they affect Internet applications in general (at the very least a forum, one of the oldest Internet applications).

Time spent does not equal the constant flow.
There are many other Forums out there and summing all their pluses together may give you an idea of something that you could upgrade.
This site likes to focus only on most needed updates, but multiple of small ones could bring an overall good something.

lol where, that forum with ~400 users?

That was harsh just now and I ask you not to judge like that again.
Also, FYI, no. The Forums are bigger than these ones.

[Owlman]

My last line was probably too harsh, as I know building a community can be very time consuming and challenging to say the least, so I'm sorry about that, and good luck...

However, some of your comments here have an arrogant tone and you seem to be coming off a litte pretentious. I'm pretty sure the staff here know what they're capable of and what upgrades/customizations are worth implementing and/or rolling out. I know, you say you are merely making "suggestions", but telling them what to keep in mind, when they've maintained this community all this time sounds a bit pompous to me. I'm sure they rolled out several updates/plugins for this site even if it doesn't seem that snazzy and web 2.0-like. They're obviously more concerned with utility rather than asthetics, and given that they're only running this with their spare time, I'd say thats fair.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by Owlman

My last line was probably too harsh, as I know building a community can be very time consuming and challenging to say the least, so I'm sorry about that, and good luck...

However, some of your comments here have an arrogant tone and you seem to be coming off a litte pretentious. I'm pretty sure the staff here know what they're capable of and what upgrades/customizations are worth implementing and/or rolling out. I know, you say you are merely making "suggestions", but telling them what to keep in mind, when they've maintained this community all this time sounds a bit pompous to me. I'm sure they rolled out several updates/plugins for this site even if it doesn't seem that snazzy and web 2.0-like. They're obviously more concerned with utility rather than asthetics, and given that they're only running this with their spare time, I'd say thats fair.

I'm sure they wouldn't agree with you.
Yeah, they probably know what they are capable of upgrading/changing on their own site, but they are not Gods, and do not know for every single change that could be done.
After hearing about the idea, they can best judge whether to include it or not (that is to be expected), but they do have to hear the idea first.
Even if the idea is rejected at first, I try to see how much possibility is there that it could still be included in the future, and that was the whole discussion on this thread + of course, the community members' opinion(s) sharing.
In the end, the only one that had something off-topic and breaking to say was you (Not meant in an aggressive way).

Here, I'd like to end our discussion like it was just now and if you have any subjective point to add, please, send me a PM about it.
Let's keep this discussion clean and on-topic, okay?

I'll say this now, if any of the Admins and other Staff feels like I should stop with suggesting, or trying to dig a bit more after doing so, please, do PM me about it.
I won't take it as a negative message, I only want to know so I'll be able to take your time/stand in the account for the next time.

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

I'm sure they wouldn't agree with you.

About knowing what they're capable of and what changes are worth the effort? ..the comments in this thread (and others) deciding against your suggestions implies otherwise.

Yeah, they probably know what they are capable of upgrading/changing on their own site, but they are not Gods, and do not know for every single change that could be done.

...But no one said anything about anyone being “gods”, I only stated that I'm sure they know what upgrades/customizations are worth their effort.

In the end, the only one that had something off-topic and breaking to say was you (Not meant in an aggressive way).

No, I was really pointing out that you seem very adamant about getting them to implement the upgrades you're requesting, but it doesn't seem like you're listening to their reasoning much –you just keep coming back with more reasons why you believe they should implement the change you want and only focus on the benefits of said change, all which ignore their main issues with it in the first place, here is what I'm talking about:

According to ghdpro, moving to the current vbulletin at this time isn't a good idea. He and relentlessflame also mentioned the importance of work being worth the effort. ...You then suggest they write their own forum software, which would call for even more effort than the upgrade.

According to relentlessflame they have many custom plugins specific to the site that complicates changes(which were already deemed not worth the effort at this time). ...You then ask him to upload scaped v4.

I actually agree that a more modern look would be nice, but again, I think the multiple reasons given for why they're not upgrading yet are quite fair, especially considering this is run from their free time. Your suggestions might be much easier to implement on the boards you actually "mod" , but for a much larger and far older board like this with many custom plugins, seemingly simple upgrades can become quite the chore.

[relentlessflame]

Both GHDpro and I agreed that we're not opposed to having a new theme be added, and I also said that I'd like better mobile support (because I agree from first-hand experience that the default skins we have are a bit annoying on mobile devices right now). That's already two admins expressing nominal support, so it's not like the core suggestions have been shot down. I suggest focusing on the battles that can be won.

But, just saying that isn't going to make it happen. A lot of scepticism has been raised about just what sort of design would be an improvement over what we have now. Even if it's made available as an option, it would have to still keep the same top-bar we're using now so that it's compatible with our banner contests and the other themes. This limits the design choices in some way (because the banners were designed to work with the current blue and beige themes).

Basically, someone has to propose a design concept would be suitable as a third AnimeSuki theme (or at least the elements they'd like to see included in such a design), and a way to make it happen, considering it'll probably remain on vBulletin 3.8.x for the time-being.

[cyth]

Please, anything but a "blue" theme. They're so common around the internet, it makes the sites look nothing special, uninteresting and IMO boring!

[Dhomochevsky]

Originally Posted by cyth

Please, anything but a "blue" theme. They're so common around the internet, it makes the sites look nothing special, uninteresting and IMO boring!

It's ok to not be different all the time, when different means worse.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Both GHDpro and I agreed that we're not opposed to having a new theme be added, and I also said that I'd like better mobile support (because I agree from first-hand experience that the default skins we have are a bit annoying on mobile devices right now). That's already two admins expressing nominal support, so it's not like the core suggestions have been shot down. I suggest focusing on the battles that can be won.

Of course, we have to be realistic as well here and as you have said, focus on updates that could actually have a possibility to be done.
Now, as for the mobile-friendly system, I think it is something forums nowadays more or less all have, so in-putting it would not be something really special but it would be very wanted.

Also, I'd like to note the readers/posters on this thread that if you have a branch-idea to express alongside the main idea, such as the mobile-friendly system, you are very welcome to post it. However, for any other suggestion(s) that has/have no relation to this one, please, create a new thread and say there that you think it/they should have a higher priority than this one.

But, just saying that isn't going to make it happen. A lot of scepticism has been raised about just what sort of design would be an improvement over what we have now. Even if it's made available as an option, it would have to still keep the same top-bar we're using now so that it's compatible with our banner contests and the other themes. This limits the design choices in some way (because the banners were designed to work with the current blue and beige themes).

As the ideas/suggestions take quite some talking-over and thinking before they get included/if they ever get included, I'd like you to think about the time they might be added as well.
Currently, you've been saying how things would be capable of being added right now, but how about in the future?
You've repeated yourself quite a lot of times that the update(s) will be included only if the gain fits or oversizes the effort put into it. Well, everything improves over the time, and so does the overall ability of making and then in-puting certain updates/content.

My point here: I think we should focus on the mobile-friendly system first. Reason being is that the system more or less works on any version of the forums, and it doesn't really change in newer versions.
Now, the theme might be a little bit different. Themes are things that we add and want to make them stay for some time.

You've said:

Basically, someone has to propose a design concept would be suitable as a third AnimeSuki theme (or at least the elements they'd like to see included in such a design), and a way to make it happen, considering it'll probably remain on vBulletin 3.8.x for the time-being.

The theme is not really something we should hurry with.
I think that the newer version of vBulletin, even if that is the 6th one, should come first. That is if the version itself effects the in-putting of the theme much.

Summing that up: As the themes are something we want to stay for some more time, upgrading to the newer version of vBulletin first would be great, even if it happens in 5 years or not even that. Reason for that is just what you have listed down - the banners, sizes, ... could get corrupted along the way.
However, if a certain someone is willing to make a new theme for the current version and then later update the theme at the time the forums version upgrade would happen, it would be just grand. We would just need that certain someone.

Originally Posted by cyth

Please, anything but a "blue" theme. They're so common around the internet, it makes the sites look nothing special, uninteresting and IMO boring!

"Blue" is just a color/skin, not really a theme.
You can already access it by going to the Main Index Page, scrolling all the way down and looking at the options on the left-bottom corner.
By default, you have it set on AnimeSuki Default, but you can change to AnimeSuki Blue. You can also pick between differently organized data-showing.

If you meant the theme not to have blue as the main color, I would have to agree.
We already have it, plus IMHO, it is not that attractive.

[Triple_R]

Haiprbim, you'd really help your argument here if you'd show us an example of this new, improved theme/skin (i.e. either through posting up a screen capture on this thread, or linking to a site that uses what you're referring to).

Ledgem is right. Him and I weren't being defensive here. I also don't think that the mods are being defensive.

We're not trying to lure you into some sort of trap. We're genuinely curious to see what you're suggesting. When you promote a visual change, its helpful to show the goods.

Ledgem - Show us the money.

Triple_R - I agree. Show us the money!


So, Haiprbim, are you going to show us the money? I am fully prepared to be wowed! Wow me, and you win my support. Here's your chance.

[HasuMasu]

I'm convinced Haiprbm is some kind of salesman, what with all the proposals.

[EroKing]

Considering most of the regulars over the years still are regulars they must have gotten used to the current skins and also all the features and are plenty satisfied with the site. The staff should be fully aware of the traffic it gets. There's the possibility that any changes might actually make the place less interesting. No need to fix something that isn't broken, right?

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Haiprbim, you'd really help your argument here if you'd show us an example of this new, improved theme/skin (i.e. either through posting up a screen capture on this thread, or linking to a site that uses what you're referring to).

============================

Ledgem is right. Him and I weren't being defensive here. I also don't think that the mods are being defensive.

We're not trying to lure you into some sort of trap. We're genuinely curious to see what you're suggesting. When you promote a visual change, its helpful to show the goods.

So, Haiprbim, are you going to show us the money? I am fully prepared to be wowed! Wow me, and you win my support. Here's your chance.

Is everything written below the line I bolded out referring to me?

As for the theme screen capture, I haven't made one and will not steal one from other forums either.
We would need a GFX Designer to make one, I was only pointing out a suggestion to add a new one, more colourful and energetic one in the first place.
I think you are just yet another one who doesn't understand that I only opened up an idea through which we may advance or not. I do not have the theme and am not demanding it to be added, I only wanted to share this idea for reasons being in my previous posts and read what the community thinks about it, what the community has to add and in the end, see where we stand and how things could change in the future.
I'm not the center of the attention here, only someone that brought up an idea and shared his own opinion about it.

Now, if the text below the line is referring to me, I never said that anyone was being defensive?
I never even thought about any trap over here, so I seriously do not think what you were trying to suggest here.
Also, I said multiple times that we would need to find a kind GFX Designer as the last thing we would need, so it makes me wonder if you have even read the thread, because you have stated some sharp things over me that are not true at all. For example, I understand Ledgem's point completely and do not see him being defensive, only expressing his opinion.

Anyhow, the main focus was far from that right now: It was if the theme could be possibly included in the future, regardless if we would have one ready to be set or not.

Originally Posted by Hasumi

I'm convinced Haiprbim is some kind of salesman, what with all the proposals.

No, I'm not. And that comment really wasn't necessary.

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

Considering most of the regulars over the years still are regulars they must have gotten used to the current skins and also all the features and are plenty satisfied with the site. The staff should be fully aware of the traffic it gets. There's the possibility that any changes might actually make the place less interesting. No need to fix something that isn't broken, right?

Here we go again.
My suggestion is not about a fix of any kind, but attraction of new members to the forums.
The current theme with the skins would be kept and you could keep on using them if you would want to, but to attract new members, a new, more energetic theme would be great.
Members come and go, and it is great to see old ones still active, but it would also be great to see new ones set their tent as well, wouldn't you agree?
Again, the current theme with the skins would be kept, so nothing would be taken from you and other members that got used to it.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

Also, I said multiple times that we would need to find a kind GFX Designer as the last thing we would need, so it makes me wonder if you have even read the thread, because you have stated some sharp things over me that are not true at all. For example, I understand Ledgem's point completely and do not see him being defensive, only expressing his opinion.

Anyhow, the main focus was far from that right now: It was if the theme could be possibly included in the future, regardless if we would have one ready to be set or not.

Here we go again.
My suggestion is not about a fix of any kind, but attraction of new members to the forums.
The current theme with the skins would be kept and you could keep on using them if you would want to, but to attract new members, a new, more energetic theme would be great.
Members come and go, and it is great to see old ones still active, but it would also be great to see new ones set their tent as well, wouldn't you agree?
Again, the current theme with the skins would be kept, so nothing would be taken from you and other members that got used to it.

And how do you plan on attracting new people if we "keep" our current theme and at the same time make the option of using a new theme? Unless you want to plan on using the new theme as the default theme, but that can cause other problems. It's not uncommon to see people in this forum fail to read pinned threads or announcements, so what if this change made them leave the forums? Because they don't like the theme and they are not aware that you can change it back to before.

Plus more importantly (and said by other people), what makes you think that a new theme actually has that kind of desired effect? Just a new theme won't attract new members, because people actually have to come to this site to see the themes.
You can't be sure that the effort put into all of this , is even worth it. Add the extra problem that you don't even have a graphic designer.
Realistically speaking, you have nothing concrete because you don't have a graphic designer nor anything to show.

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

I'm not the center of the attention here, only someone that brought up an idea and shared his own opinion about it.

You are suggestion is nice and all, but the suggestion of new forum skins is not new. But back then, nothing was done with these because they used to plan to moving to 4.0 but in the end they didn't even do it.

forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=114086

forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=90527

forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=90323