Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Keroko]

Again you claim that wider area explosion = more power. Again I will point out this isn't the case.

[Akiyoshi]

And you seem to imply the EC-Drivers can teaers appart mountain with mere punches like Super Saiyans on DBZ when so far that isn't the case xDU

I'll swallow my words when i finally get to see one of the Hucks tearing appart an entire city with unpowered punches/slashes alone but until that i won't buy the striking power is the same as an Excellion Buster/SSA/Starlight Breaker.

[ZeroXSEED]

Uhoh, pardon for the intrusion and derailing the discussion.

But other than increased reach, what exactly is the canon advantage of adult mode? I seems to heard once about something like "Adult form has enough muscles to use strength enhancement effectively" or something along that line, but I'm not sure.

[agetreme]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

And you seem to imply the EC-Drivers can teaers appart mountain with mere punches like Super Saiyans on DBZ when so far that isn't the case xDU

I'll swallow my words when i finally get to see one of the Hucks tearing appart an entire city with unpowered punches/slashes alone but until that i won't buy the striking power is the same as an Excellion Buster/SSA/Starlight Breaker.

Dividing Effect of Eclispe Virus. It apparently can break anything inorganic apart (including Touma's Divider and Raptors' AEC).

Uhoh, pardon for the intrusion and derailing the discussion.

But other than increased reach, what exactly is the canon advantage of adult mode? I seems to heard once about something like "Adult form has enough muscles to use strength enhancement effectively" or something along that line, but I'm not sure.

More effective use of Magic, in a way similar to Friedrich?

From Small Fire ball to really big blast of fire?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by agetreme

Dividing Effect of Eclispe Virus. It apparently can break anything inorganic apart (including Touma's Divider and Raptors' AEC).

Cypha's ability to corrode inorganic substances is a viralizing ability exclusive to her, it isn't inherent to all EC Drivers.

Dividing Effect seems only to work on spells and constructs made by linked mana.

Of course must take into account Tohma is a Zero Driver which posseses the "Zero Effect" which is a vastly stronger version which is able to apparently disable ALL sorts of energy, not just magic.

[agetreme]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Cypha's ability to corrode inorganic substances is a viralizing ability exclusive to her, it isn't inherent to all EC Drivers.

Dividing Effect seems only to work on spells and constructs made by linked mana.

Of course must take into account Tohma is a Zero Driver which posseses the "Zero Effect" which is a vastly stronger version which is able to apparently disable ALL sorts of energy, not just magic.

Which means.... All Dividers are actually made from Magic? Because Touma's Divider was broke and reconstructed during that same chapter.

[Akiyoshi]

Since when Tohma's divider was "divided" xDU

As far as i remeber Subaru was the only one who managed to damage his 996 and she just achieved that because her weapon focuses the vibration of her "Oscillating Breaker" I.S. intro breaking solid weapons, specially blades xDU

Besides, Reinforce Eins already stated Eclipse is not magic xD

[agetreme]

*Looking up at Nanoha Wiki*

Oh wait... That's Dividing Break....which use Dividing Effect to break stuff.....

You know...
Whoever created the Eclipse Virus is one freaking crazily prepared bastard. -_-

[Akiyoshi]

Oh yeah, Dividing Break seems to be Carter Grendel's viralizing ability, i forgot he used it to break Tohma's Divider and some AEC-junk xD

Yep, some abilities allow to focus on destroying stuff but the basic EC-powers are focused towards screwing with magic xD

[agetreme]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Oh yeah, Dividing Break seems to be Carter Grendel's viralizing ability, i forgot he used it to break Tohma's Divider and some AEC-junk xD

Yep, some abilities allow to focus on destroying stuff but the basic EC-powers are focused towards screwing with magic xD

Dude, AMF screw with magic.

Eclipse Power not only screw Magic but a complete game-breaker.

They are immune to almost everything (high Physical Defense, healing factor....etc). You probably need a nuke or two to deal with them (might not even work if some happened to have viralizing ability to deal with nukes).

[bhl88]

Nah, we have to rely on Touma's harem ability.

[agetreme]

LIES!

We have to rely on the power of Love between Lily and Iris!

(Touma is only an accessory )

Edit: Back to topic.... How in the world does Eclipse-Infected fire energy beam? Technology from Divider? Psychic-power?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

And you seem to imply the EC-Drivers can teaers appart mountain with mere punches like Super Saiyans on DBZ when so far that isn't the case xDU

I'll swallow my words when i finally get to see one of the Hucks tearing appart an entire city with unpowered punches/slashes alone but until that i won't buy the striking power is the same as an Excellion Buster/SSA/Starlight Breaker.

You're clearly not reading what I write at all, as what I am saying is the direct opposite. What I am saying is that the destruction caused in square kilometer is not the end-all way of measuring power.

A strike from Vita's Raketten Hammer is not going to cause much damage over a wide area, but since its power is focused on a small area, it's piercing power far surpasses most of Nanoha's big booms.

Ditto for the eclipse users. Their slashes may not tear apart cities, but that says nothing about the actual power those slashes have.

Here's a thought: You keep saying that she sheer effortlessness the Hucks have in tearing the new AEC equipment to shreds shows how weak it is, right? But let's reverse that line of thinking: The sheer effortlessness the Hucks have in tearing apart the new AEC equipment shows how ridiculously strong the Hucks are.

Doesn't that make a ton more sense?

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by agetreme

Dude, AMF screw with magic.

Eclipse Power not only screw Magic but a complete game-breaker.

They are immune to almost everything (high Physical Defense, healing factor....etc). You probably need a nuke or two to deal with them (might not even work if some happened to have viralizing ability to deal with nukes).

Not really...
Veyron killed that reacted Diego with one shot to the head and Arnage used knockout gas against Thoma and a plasma discharge against Marky.
S6 ? Bigger guns, hammers and swords ?
Of course, things like Thoma`s life draining Zero Eclipse and Stella`s anti-Arc-en-Ciel are petty much gb in their own right.

I`m rather curious how exactly all that technology came to be with the Bureau so unprepared for it... The head in the sand philosophy ?

[bhl88]

Only an infected can deal with another xD

[Justin_Brett]

But let's reverse that line of thinking: The sheer effortlessness the Hucks have in tearing apart the new AEC equipment shows how ridiculously strong the Hucks are.

That doesn't quite work, though. They're the only people who've even been fighting against them on a regular basis. If we saw a criminal mage fighting against a Bureau officer with one and being unable to dent it, then that would be one thing, but there's no real scale for them as it is.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

That doesn't quite work, though. They're the only people who've even been fighting against them on a regular basis. If we saw a criminal mage fighting against a Bureau officer with one and being unable to dent it, then that would be one thing, but there's no real scale for them as it is.

Exactly, the problem is that we haven't seen EC Drivers fighting against anything else other than standard devices, AEC-units and 5th Gen Bardiche ...and Devices can't be used as measure of their strenght cuz they have special powers to null their effectiveness, making impossible to measure how strong they really are against magical defenses without the dividing effect.

On the wider scale we saw repeatedly how magical defenses from various characters tanked or deflected opposing forces of varying degrees from enemy gunfire to city-blowing nukes while the AEC-units haven't shown to be too ressilent, the fact even the characters themselves refers to them as flawed and unreliable weapons doesn't help (Vita practically said the only reason they're using the AEC-units is because those are the only working weapons available after poniting out the glaring flaws in comparission with their formerly trusty devices).

This is supported by EC Drivers easilly destroying such equipemment, Cypha could have the excuse of her viralizing ability but Quinn sliced Fortress shields easily with an unreacted divider and Curren destroyed TWO Strike Cannons with a common katana which is almost an impossible feat against conventional magic shields, barriers, etc... (heck, Signum's Panzergeist allowed her to tank four photon lancer which are more or less the equivalent of exploding hand grenades at worst).

As for the Vita example we actually have a scale to measure that thanks to her Gingat Crusher attack. She makes the hammer grows to colossal size for an ultra-powerfull melee attack that ...while powerfull... is still a bit weaker than Nanoha's big guns. Vita and Signum are better in the anti-personel range, they lack the tremendous firepower Nanoha and Fate posses but compensates that with cunning skills for close range combat.

Originally Posted by agetreme

Edit: Back to topic.... How in the world does Eclipse-Infected fire energy beam? Technology from Divider? Psychic-power?

Cypha explained a bit of this to Tohma while beating the tar out of Quinn. EC Drivers seem to have the ability to use certain amount of energy to empower their attacks, the unmatched speed and effectiveness of Quinn's attacks were explained as her using the EC-energy to invisibly enhace the range and shape of her attack. Cypha mentions it's an interesting way of using it but implies there are other uses for it.

Personally, it seemed as if she were implying her super resillence have to do something with it which would make more sense of Signum being able to cut her arms while Quinn's blade got destroyed trying to cut trough Cypha's neck.

...wait.... that makes Laevatein technically more durable than Quinn's divider?...LOL xD

[agetreme]

I`m rather curious how exactly all that technology came to be with the Bureau so unprepared for it... The head in the sand philosophy ?

Spoiler for strikers:

Their precious Brain Jars had died? So TSAB no instruction or way to prepare for it?

[Keroko]

It's a big universe, and not all of it is TSAB controlled. Stuff could have been developed in some other pocket of space and the TSAB would be none the wiser until it crossed their borders.

[Sunder the Gold]

Speculation:

The "Defense" program was something of a misnomer.

Rather, the monster produced by the Book of Darkness each time was created through a deliberate corruption of the Tome's reincarnation function.

The reincarnation is capable of recreating the Book across interstellar distances despite having no physical form with which to attempt either feat. Compared to that, creating a monster while the Book is still intact would be exceedingly simple.

In effect, the planet-killing monsters were familiars of the Book, which used all of the book's stolen energies until the tank ran empty and the monster died with it.

Since the monster is not a proper part of the Tome, the Administrative Program has no authority to control it, and cannot stop its rampage. And with the monster rapidly draining all available power, the Administrative program cannot maintain a physical form to attempt to personally combat it.

The Guardian Knight program, added as a part of the corruption, is slaved to it. That is, they are always cannibalized by the Book to feed the monster.

(Incidentally, the reincarnation function is how the Guardian Knight program is capable of constructing the Wolkenritter after activation, and even after their own destruction.)


Reinforce had to kill herself, since her existence as the Administrative Program was too closely tied to the rest of the original book.

The Wolkenritter were a subprogram of a subprogram, and a later addition to boot. They could be safely excised.


However, by all of this thinking, Hayate would not have the Collect and Use function, as that was intrinsically a part of the Tome. If Reinforce was capable of sectioning off THAT function, she could have sectioned off the resurrection function, or herself.

Likewise, Hayate would not have the ability to quickly heal or fully resurrect the Wolkenritter, since that ought to be impossible without the original Tome's resurrection function. At best, the Wolkenritter would become fully independent magical creatures, like Unison Devices.


(You are now imagining the Wolkenritter as chibis.

And now you are imagining Hayate using them like Guardian Charas from Shugo Chara.

Amulet Sword! Amulet Hammer! Amulet Rings! Amulet... gauntlets?)