Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Destined_Fate]

I suggest you look at what you said and change your words and tone zeroexia. I have better things to do than humor someone such as yourself if you cannot conduct yourself correctly.

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

She doesn't give a shit when she knows Djibril is defiling her precious homeland, but then frantically trying to get in the Skygrasper and dealing with the issue personallly RIGHT FUCKING NOW suddenly becomes an option for her when Durandal is the one defiling her homeland.

Nope. She's full of shit, and she's just as fallible as any other non-super-idealized jackoff. I could have a little bit of respect for that if she were ever honest about it, but the show never gives you that either. Instead she just keeps saying Durandal is somehow the one to blame for her own shortsighted mistakes.

I didn't say she wasn't a fool or an idiot since she was. However because she does stupid things for her ideals it makes my statement correct that she's the embodiment of them. After all, her father committing suicide with his most loyal retainers because of the ideals of ORB was also a very dumb thing to do as well.

Don't forget that Kira blames Durandal as well and you didn't see any of Team Kira going after Djibril at ORB or after ORB. They let Shinn do all the work than swooped in, after the Alliance was exhausted from fighting Logos remnants, to kill Durandal.

[Wild Goose]

tl;dr Destiny had a lot of promise, but was badly handled in almost all respects.

At least we finally had a proper fleet carrier in the Takemikazuchi (as opposed to the Spenglar-class carriers, which appeared to me to be closer to amphibious assault ships rather than fleet carriers. Still carrier, just not having that much of a knockout punch or Alpha Strike, though it allows you to have some carrier somewhere, as opposed to no carrier.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

She doesn't give a shit when she knows Djibril is defiling her precious homeland, but then frantically trying to get in the Skygrasper and dealing with the issue personallly RIGHT FUCKING NOW suddenly becomes an option for her when Durandal is the one defiling her homeland.

Cagalli doesn't like Djibril being in Orb. That said, Djibril being in Orb doesn't cost the lives of Orb citizens while ZAFT attacking does. That is an important difference.

Nope. She's full of shit, and she's just as fallible as any other non-super-idealized jackoff. I could have a little bit of respect for that if she were ever honest about it, but the show never gives you that either. Instead she just keeps saying Durandal is somehow the one to blame for her own shortsighted mistakes.

Which of Cagalli's own mistakes did she put the blame on Durandal?

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I suggest you look at what you said and change your words and tone zeroexia. I have better things to do than humor someone such as yourself if you cannot conduct yourself correctly.

I didn't say she wasn't a fool or an idiot since she was. However because she does stupid things for her ideals it makes my statement correct that she's the embodiment of them. After all, her father committing suicide with his most loyal retainers because of the ideals of ORB was also a very dumb thing to do as well.

Don't forget that Kira blames Durandal as well and you didn't see any of Team Kira going after Djibril at ORB or after ORB. They let Shinn do all the work than swooped in, after the Alliance was exhausted from fighting Logos remnants, to kill Durandal.

It's a show for godsake. How better to harden the resolve of the Three Ships Alliance than to have one of its founders perish in a fire of self-sacrifice?

Kira attacked Abyss, Neo in his Windam, Destroy in Berlin. If these are not weapons of destruction perpetuated by LOGOS and Djibril I don't know what is.

Durandal announced his Plan right after ZAFT defeated the EA and eliminated the scourge of LOGOS once and for all. It's opposition to his Plan that prompted Kira and co to attack ZAFT. ZAFT being exhausted from the previous battle merely gave Kira and co a slight reprieve.

Face it, at every turn you just want to put down Kira, Cagalli and Orb. And facts are distorted and manipulated to that end, which is frustrating me, and I believe many of us here.

[CBredbeard]

Plant bombarded the Earth with N-Jammers which sent civilization back to the dark ages. Millions of people died as a result and billions were impoverished. They did this as retaliation for the nuclear strike against Junius 7...which was a terrorist act that the entire earth could hardly be held responsible for.

Plant might have had a point as far as desiring independence, but they are hardly innocent as far as their conduct in the war goes. Of the two sides, Earth fared considerably worse by every measure even accounting for the differences in population.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Plant bombarded the Earth with N-Jammers which sent civilization back to the dark ages. Millions of people died as a result and billions were impoverished. They did this as retaliation for the nuclear strike against Junius 7...which was a terrorist act that the entire earth could hardly be held responsible for.

Plant might have had a point as far as desiring independence, but they are hardly innocent as far as their conduct in the war goes. Of the two sides, Earth fared considerably worse by every measure even accounting for the differences in population.

Edit: Derp. I'd forgotten that Blue Cosmos infiltrators among the EA military had that nuke loaded. The question is then a legal rhethorical puzzle as to whether that was an act of terrorism or part of the dirty business of war. The joys of the adversarial system of law...

You do have a point there with the N-Jammers - thanks for reminding me about that. I'd overlooked it, given that for the most part Earth doesn't exactly appear that badly off. *shrug*

That said, I agree partially with what you said. As the war went on, both sides committed atrocities in the prosecution of the war, so much so that the moral high ground was effectively lost by the time Second Jachin rolled around

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I suggest you look at what you said and change your words and tone zeroexia. I have better things to do than humor someone such as yourself if you cannot conduct yourself correctly.

I apologize if I have offended you. I may have been too harsh but you're an extremely frustrating person to talk with. Especially when you reject facts and return to your continual rants on the evil of Orb and Kira.

I was merely noting your extreme bias for ZAFT is so abnormally strong that it as if you mimic the fanaticism of Shinn himself in the show. This bias is especially unusual since ZAFT and Durundal are quite obviously the villains in the story at the end. This is why I'm saying that you're must be so deeply entranced in your hate for Kira and Orb that you conviently ignore the very plot itself.

[Gundamx]

At the start of the Bloody Valentine War, ZAFT actually held the moral high ground. ZAFT was formed to defend the PLANTs from the aggression of the sponsor nations, and first went into combat against the blockade of the PLANTs. Then came the Copernicus Bombing, which led to the formation of the Earth Alliance and a declaration of war against the PLANTs (again, the ZAFT is not the aggressor here).

moral high ground?
Killing all UN leaders and think they can get away with it?
(The reason why Alliance declare war)

Alliance Nuke you = you nuke most of earth nations that not part of it and than ask why most earthing join them
(N-Jammers = slow death = more hatred)

most part Earth doesn't exactly appear that badly off

we only see people lives in Orb and some part of Africa right?
Not reset of world

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

moral high ground?
Killing all UN leaders and think they can get away with it?
(The reason why Alliance declare war)

Protip, Gundamx: use the quote button. That allows better attributing of posts. Notice how, by doing that, I make it clear that I'm replying to you specifically, as well as the post you made, for easier reference.

Now, as I stated earlier, at the start of the series, ZAFT held the moral high ground. ZAFT was not the aggressor. However, as the series went on, both sides committed atrocities and lost the high ground. I'm really not sure where you're going with your statement above, since I acknowledged that both sides have committed atrocities.

We have no idea who was responsible for killing UN leaders. Note, however, that throughout SEED, ZAFT avoids terror attacks against civilian targets; the closest ZAFT gets to anything of the sort is the commando raid on the G-Weapon hangars (legit military target) and the Zala team's infiltration of Orb (legit military action). Which group made terror attacks against civilians, attempted to assassinate a military leader with no regard for collateral damage, and arranged for nukes to be fired at a civilian colony? Blue Cosmos, which is almost one and the same with the Earth Alliance.

Like I said, on the balance of probabilities, I'm more inclined to believe that Copernicus was the work of Blue Cosmos, simply because they have a known track record of terror attacks, and the Copernicus bombing doesn't really fit ZAFT's profile. (It's like there's a suicide bombing in Kandahar, and you argue that it was American troops who carried it out, instead of the Taliban.)

Alliance Nuke you = you nuke most of earth nations that not part of it and than ask why most earthing join them
(N-Jammers = slow death = more hatred)

As I said, both sides have committed atrocities. I don't deny that. What I've been saying is that ZAFT started with the moral high ground and then lost it. Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear.

Also, you're misrepresenting the situation. ZAFT did not nuke earth nations in retaliation, but dropped N-Jammers on the hostile nations that made up the Earth Alliance. And while it did cause suffering and hardship, attacking the enemy's infrastructure - factories, transportation and shipping hubs, electricity-generating plants - is a legitimate military option. Recall how much ordnance the US dropped on Iraq and Serbia in the 90s, destroying their infrastructure. Take out the enemy's infrastructure, you remove his ability to support his prosecution of the war, which allows you breathing space for your forces. This has historical precedent from World War 2 onwards. You can even make it too difficult for him to wage war, forcing him to the negotiating table.

we only see people lives in Orb and some part of Africa right?
Not reset of world

Well, of course we don't see a reset of the world; there's no Moonlight Butterfly there.

Orb is fine, since neutrality meant it wasn't hit with N-Jammers. The african towns we see are for the most part doing well - they've got power and people are shopping and living life as normal. Australia and New Zealand are probably fine (what a lot of people forget is that Australia was allied with ZAFT during SEED). The fact that the Atlantic Federation and Eurasian Union are able to continue to prosecute the war, maintain their forces, produce Strike Daggers and have the Porto Panama mass driver online also is a strong indicator that N-Jammer effects aren't as bad as one might thing, since they've got power on to be building all this stuff.

[S.Freedom]

Well the N-Jammers only effected nuclear power plants not solar or wind generation facilities. So it could be argued that the loss of said nuclear power forced greater reliance on energy derived from solar/wind. Or even geothermal energy which is what I believe Orb relied on for most if not all of it's power needs.

As for the Copernicus bombing. Didn't Blue Cosmos take responsibility for that? I could've sworn I'd read/heard that they had yet the EA went to war anyway.*shrugs*

Although I have always found it rather convenient that Seigel Clynes shuttle had a malfunction preventing it from departing long enough for him to avoid being killed along with the UN delegation. Though that may just be my suspicious nature shining through.

[monster]

The neutron jammers affect the entire earth, including neutral nations like Orb.

[Wild Goose]

Here's the thing though - N-Jammers only affect nuclear power. There's still solar, wind, surf, hydro and geothermal power.

I have a strong suspicion Malaysia is now getting quite rich off biodiesel...

[Aquaman OS]

According to the timeline most of the world ran on nuclear power (fossil fuels ran out years before and nuclear became widespread) which is why the N Jammers were so devastating to Earth.

Orb mostly ran on other power sources though, so the N Jammers barely affected them. It was one of the reasons why a small tiny nation was such a global superpower. Their economy was total fine without being crippled by power losses or Zaft attacks.

[Skye629]

Here we go again

TBH one of the few things I like about SEED is all the different viewpoints you can view the story from, and understand why different sides/people acted as they did. It makes for a great psychological study

The problem of course was that this was obviously too complex for the directors to handle lol

BTW popcorn anyone? These are as amusing as always to read through

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Skye629

BTW popcorn anyone? These are as amusing as always to read through

I'm ready and popcorn set.

Spoiler:

[Washu-Chan]

Same here.

[zeroexia]

Regardless of who had the moral high ground, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the Earth would be horrible place to be living in.

The UN was killed in a terrorist attack leading to the LOGOS controlled EA, crazy crazy people.
The N-Jammers destroyed the major source of power, crippling most of the world for a while and killing millions.

And the major one is the Junius 7 drop. The devastation of that colony drop is fully shown in Stargazer with a great number of major cities being obliterated.

I'm surprised the EA could still fight a war with the state of the planet like that.

And on another note, I watched this week's episode and it was a review episode but it did at least give insight into the minds of Rau and Durundal.

Rau is a shown bit more sympathetic here, even having multiple scenes of comforting Ray.

He hates humanity and believes that it will destroy itself and he is merely aiding the natural progression. He feels he's the culmination of all that is evil with humanity , the illegal clone. And he'll never forget it, so therefore he's the rightful person to judge humanity.

He then mocks Durundal and other humans who hope for a better future, saying it's hopeless.

Durundal himself is questioning whether or not Rau was right and if it is indeed fate. He rejects it and decides that if humanity can't undo the past, then he'll put them on a new correct path. And then citing DNA's Adenine Cytosine Guanine Thymine, he says that he of course knows the best way. (Since he's a scientist specializing in DNA manipulation. Foreshadowing here. )

Then cue smile.

Basically,

Gilbert Durundal, he is a CHAR.

[Aquaman OS]

The sad thing most of Durandal's "Humans make mistakes and go down the wrong path so it's better to know which pathes are closed for you from the start before you waste your life shooting for something that won't work out" mentality is sipmly because of a failed romance.

Seriously. Look at the flashbacks. It's always Talia he's thinking about. He met her, fell in love, but they weren't genetically compatible to have a child so he had to let her go to someone who was. That's why he's big on genetic testing from the start. He constantly regrets ever having tried to have something with her that would never have worked out.

Which also pretty much implies that the Destiny Plan would also be handling that side of peoples lives as well as their jobs.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Here's the thing though - N-Jammers only affect nuclear power. There's still solar, wind, surf, hydro and geothermal power.

I have a strong suspicion Malaysia is now getting quite rich off biodiesel...

The point is, ZAFT wasn't being discriminate about its attack with the neutron jammers. Nuclear energy was the main source of power for the nations on earth at that time. Lucky for Orb that it didn't need to rely on nuclear energy, but not all nations were so lucky, and not all of them were the sponsor nations that were in conflict with the PLANTs.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

The sad thing most of Durandal's "Humans make mistakes and go down the wrong path so it's better to know which pathes are closed for you from the start before you waste your life shooting for something that won't work out" mentality is sipmly because of a failed romance.

Seriously. Look at the flashbacks. It's always Talia he's thinking about. He met her, fell in love, but they weren't genetically compatible to have a child so he had to let her go to someone who was. That's why he's big on genetic testing from the start. He constantly regrets ever having tried to have something with her that would never have worked out.

Which also pretty much implies that the Destiny Plan would also be handling that side of peoples lives as well as their jobs.

Despite that, they are in a relationship.