2010-07-20, 23:54 | Link #3461 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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"Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle" I'm quite fine with the idea that a word or a name might have a different meaning if it's hinted every time which meaning it has. But that's not what people assume when they use this trick to get around red. X can mean A and also B? Okay show me, for any given sentence including "X" where is the hint that clearly shows that it means "A" or where is the hint that clearly shows that it means "B". If there are no hints at all, then we can only guess if that given "X" means A or B, we might as well toss a coin to decide it. And no, arbitrarily deciding that "X" is "B" or "A" because it fits with your own theory is not good reasoning.
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2010-07-20, 23:56 | Link #3462 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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But what if he's not special in ability but in attitude? Ok, if the red indicates 'death' in the game then he certainly has that attitude of rebelling against the roulette. Or rebelling against the game. Perhaps Kanon is the hardest person to persuade in following the Epitaph Fakery Plan... The guy just won't stay dead. 8) |
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2010-07-20, 23:56 | Link #3463 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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2010-07-21, 00:10 | Link #3464 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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The ways of creating subjective truths I could think of are:
EDIT: We do have the example of Maria's internal game board with Sakutarou on it, the Golden Land, and the Rokkenjima board itself as sources of truth. That may actually be the only requirement for red truth in the end -- whether or not the statement is true on some game board in play. So what activities generate game boards?
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-07-21 at 00:25. |
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2010-07-21, 01:19 | Link #3465 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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That's pretty dangerous territory. While possible, at that point the red starts to break down. Now, I suppose you can argue that only "boards" or "worlds" of truth actively subscribed to by the current Game Master can be elevated to red truth. In such a case, you at least have some degree of expectation as to what a red means if you know a particular GM.
The problem is, I don't think we know any particular GM well enough. We may know some of the "boards" to which they subscribe, but can we really know all of them? Imagine Meta-Beatrice happens to subscribe to all the things we expect she does, but then she also subscribes to a view that says "dead" means "has a Kick Me sign taped to their back." How the hell are we supposed to know that, and if we don't know that, how do we approach it from the other theoretical direction?
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2010-07-21, 04:21 | Link #3466 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
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I think the whole point of Ep6 is that two truths can coexist at the same time, therefore I dont think it strange that Erika (from her own truth/ POV) can say that she's the 18th human while Battler can claim that there's still 17 people (either because of Shkanon or some other shenanigan), I think that, for that matter, Erika's conversation with Dlanor about her ex-boyfriend was kind of a hint.
For all we know Erika's and Battler's definition of human could be different, time and context have already been shown to be quite important in regards to the red truth, it should be no surprise then that the red truth's "owner"'s belief factor in the red truth itself too. |
2010-07-21, 06:16 | Link #3467 |
Member Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Age: 32
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LyricalAura:
Quite an interesting theory. After all, creating subjective truths is an everyday thing everywhere and people often try to turn those "truths" or let's say self-conviction, or you could even say dream-like state of things, into reality. However, if it was possible to turn your subjective truth into red truth even though it's only your self-conviction, it would make it virtually impossible for anyone else to find out that the things stated in red are actually fabricated or that their true meaning actually differs from what has been claimed. Like Renall said, if "dead" meant "has a Kick Me sign taped to their back" for Meta-Beatrice, how are we supposed to find it out if there's no hint for it? In fact, wouldn't it violate Knox's 8th? It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Imagining that X is the case - can't be elevated to red Believing that X is the case (alone or as a group) - might be possible for a group of people (group = at least two people) Pretending that X is the case (within a group) - for an individual, it shouldn't be possible Performing an act that X is the case (as a group) - seems very similar to pretending to me. For a group of at least two people, it might be possible Lying that X is the case (alone or as a group) - can't be elevated to red, I think Thus, I don't think it's possible for an individual to turn his or her subjective truth into red truth. But if he or she has the support of another person, the subjective truth grows stronger and might become red. This pattern can be likened to the Illusion of the Witch. If somebody believes that something has been done by magic and couldn't be done in another way, the magic is acknowledged and the Illusion is created. Similarly, if one believes that something is true and there's no way it can be false, this "truth" might be also acknowledged. This is very intriguing theory, worthy of speculation. |
2010-07-21, 09:04 | Link #3468 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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For Nanjo ep3... I'm not sure if I ever liked the "Someone comes up to him, shoots him, then dies for some reason".
I mean, the only options we have are Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Krauss and Natsuhi (all other deaths were confirmed in red at the time)... and why would any of them get up, stumble over to Nanjo (of all people) and shoot him? |
2010-07-21, 13:15 | Link #3472 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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The bit Zork brings up is interesting. Battler now knows the answers, so I guess he would have to be right in saying that. So... does that mean personality death? Or one personality never existed at all? |
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2010-07-21, 14:30 | Link #3474 |
It's Hammertime!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Italy (Neaples)
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This is interesting, but who would be the decoy? Assuming the Shkannon theory, and giving that a personality can be proclamed dead in red, saying that Kanon and Shannon are both dead, it can be that yet another personality (maybe Beatrice) is still alive and she is Nanjo's killer. This isn't exactly playing with names, but with personalities and i don't know if it is the right answer. To be honest, i don't really like it...
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2010-07-21, 14:39 | Link #3475 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I was being a little lazy, but by "dies for some reason," I meant the explosion, which by now should be a confirmed fact. I don't have an exact motive for killing Nanjo, but it should fall under the same motive the culprit has for killing other people.
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2010-07-21, 14:47 | Link #3477 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Guys Nanjo was proclaimed dead after progressing the game to the point where nanjo was found dead and Jessica was found to be missing. We have at least six possible fakers at this point in time. It's possible for someone who faked their death to stand in front of Nanjo with a weapon and Kill him and die of a wound or something in this amount of time. Remember the red is time sensitive.
There is even room to argue that this faker entered the room Eva and Battler were in got shot and that's why Battler calls her the culprit.
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2010-07-21, 14:49 | Link #3478 | |
It's Hammertime!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Italy (Neaples)
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2010-07-21, 14:52 | Link #3479 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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That's not a problem either. Battler made the person X theory in blue to solve it first, before it was denied in red. He's just referencing that and acknowledging how troublesome that theory can be, which I think was the whole point of saying 'everyone else' is in the cousins' room.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-21 at 15:03. |
2010-07-21, 18:29 | Link #3480 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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So has anyone come up with any interesting theories for Battler's closed room yet? I've looked at it time and time again myself, but I have not been able to get anywhere. Featherine makes a comment that makes me believe that the window in the next room over was definitely used if we can believe that her theory is correct. However, this makes it difficult because All people can only use their own names. This makes it hard to create a scenario where Kanon escaped from that window, even if you do support the Shkannon theory.
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