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Old 2011-08-23, 20:58   Link #821
synaesthetic
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The original Diablo had no pseudo-MMO qualities, and it remains the best game of the series by far.

Not being able to save any time is retarded.
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Old 2011-08-23, 21:01   Link #822
Mr Hat and Clogs
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True, I hate auto-saving. In an MMO it's ok, I can live with it. But most SP games auto-saving is irritating since if you die you tend to be dumped a long way from where you died. Although that has been getting better. Still hitting F5 every time you came to a corner or a suspiciously ambush friendly open room was a little immersion breaking, and a royal pain if you forgot.
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Old 2011-08-23, 22:20   Link #823
Waven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Console gaming != PC gaming. Plus, big mods take a long time to make, and that's why most of the big mods are for older games. A small handful of guys can't crank out a full-blown TC without a few years to do it.

Also, go search for "fallout 3 mods" or "fallout new vegas mods." Or how about "oblivion mods?" When Skyrim is released, watch how fast The Nexus adds a section for it.

PC gaming's primary strength over console gaming is mods. That, and stupidly high resolutions for those with the hardware to handle it. Blizzard has never been a typical PC game developer, and most Blizzard fans are not PC gamers, but rather Blizzard gamers.

I've known three separate people who have a PC for no other reason than to play WoW and/or SC2. Blizzard is not a PC gaming company. They are a subscription service provider with a pseudo-Apple cult-like following.
I never said the modding scene is gone completely, gems like alien swarm as a more recent example will always surface now and then. Just saying that it's declining nevertheless, especially concerning total conversions for the simple fact that there aren't as much of them released/under development than let's say 5 years ago. You can find several articles about it, I'm surely not making this up, it's just what I've perceived over the last couple of years.

Dunno why but it seems to me like you just hate Blizzard for "some" reason. Most of their games are PC-only, just one of them is subscription-based and your views on what a PC game should be like with moddability as their only legit quality, are pretty contestable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The original Diablo had no pseudo-MMO qualities, and it remains the best game of the series by far.

Not being able to save any time is retarded.
Now you're being overly and irrationally nostalgic. Hate to pull this card but what do you think how many people share your opinion that D1 is far better then D2 (and in your mindset probably already better than D3 as well) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
...

Starcraft Universe would like to have a word with you about what can be done with a 'map editor'.
How about this: You ask them how much fun it is to try and implement a fully functioning custom 3D model into the editor compared to an SDK for example . I know that it's possible but afaik it's a huge pain in the butt. Not trying to disrespect the potential of maps (the whole MOBA genre is based on blizzard games' maps after all) but I don't believe a let's say GalaxyEditor will ever be able to create a total conversion of its game.
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Old 2011-08-24, 04:28   Link #824
Mr Hat and Clogs
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I'm sure it wouldn't be pretty, but they've done it as far as I know - since that mod plays as a third person shooter almost. I haven't really followed that mod at all since I haven't played SC2 in like a year - just thought it was awesome.
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Old 2011-08-24, 07:19   Link #825
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The original Diablo had no pseudo-MMO qualities, and it remains the best game of the series by far.

Not being able to save any time is retarded.
I don't know. It prevents save scumming, and save scumming really clamps down on immersion.

I thought it was one of D2's better features. Makes you more cautious.
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Old 2011-08-24, 08:34   Link #826
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
True, I hate auto-saving. In an MMO it's ok, I can live with it. But most SP games auto-saving is irritating since if you die you tend to be dumped a long way from where you died. Although that has been getting better. Still hitting F5 every time you came to a corner or a suspiciously ambush friendly open room was a little immersion breaking, and a royal pain if you forgot.
That's not a problem with saving, but a problem with the death mechanic, and to some extent forced artificial difficulty settings. Meaning, being annoying rather then challenging (ie. stealing from the players, like gold, exp etc), or ambiguous rather then intuitive (ie. you have to die to actually have a chance of figuring it out). I'm all for saving at certain checkpoints where you actually have a choice, so that you don't have to play all the way though the game again just to pick the other choice, but otherwise it's all about developing the skill with the game to actually not die! Games where you actually have a chance of dieing and it's not just "who can run though it faster" (or pot whoring) are a lot more fun and satisfying, especially when you fight something and go bellow the 30% range before managing to kill it (assuming no OP pots and healing).
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Old 2011-08-24, 21:37   Link #827
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
I can understand the cult-like behaviour. These are the people who not only play the games, but read information from the expanded universe.

Amng Blizzard games, Diablo's expanded universe is the weakest by far. But, it is still there.
Which is a pity, since it is by far their most interesting world. Well, Starcraft is cool too, but I don't think it's on the level of Diablo.
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Old 2011-08-25, 18:19   Link #828
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't know. It prevents save scumming, and save scumming really clamps down on immersion.

I thought it was one of D2's better features. Makes you more cautious.
And corpse runs don't hurt immersion?
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Old 2011-08-25, 18:37   Link #829
Ithekro
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Well it is that or having to load and kill everything again, plus losing the random loot you got earlier, since the RNG might not favor you twice.
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Old 2011-08-25, 18:55   Link #830
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And corpse runs don't hurt immersion?
Corpse runs suck, definitely. I think docking gold/XP is a suitable enough penalty for dying. It's a tricky thing. You want a system that discourages you from dieing, but also discourages you from save scumming, which would be even worse in D2 due to it's random nature. Imagine if you saved right before killing Mephisto and then continuously saved and reloaded until you got the right loot when killing him -> immersion breaking. You could also save scum while gambling.
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Old 2011-08-25, 21:22   Link #831
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Which is a pity, since it is by far their most interesting world. Well, Starcraft is cool too, but I don't think it's on the level of Diablo.
Nothing beats Warcraft's one, though. Oh boy, the only reason why I stayed off WoW is because the characters I know from WC3 aren't in.... until now. Good to see Shando Stormrage again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And corpse runs don't hurt immersion?
Rule 1 of D2: Never, ever run past mobs without killing them, unless you are darn sure that there are plenty of spaces to .... run.
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Old 2011-08-26, 05:56   Link #832
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Corpse runs suck, definitely. I think docking gold/XP is a suitable enough penalty for dying.
Disagree. IMO just having to walk all the way back and a reset on the HP bar on bosses and on the mobs (along with spawn), is sufficient and appropriate. This whole idea that you just die and just stroll back again (repeat) until it's dead, is crap; let's face it you could go naked and poke it to death like this until it dies. It should be you either can beat it with out dieing or you don't pass, period.

It's also better this way since because you don't lose your hard earned exp you slowly become stronger so eventually you'll beat it; having to go though everything again is also a much more compelling penalty then having to recover your gold or losing a little bit of exp.
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Old 2011-08-26, 06:00   Link #833
Ithekro
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Considering the tactic I liked for a Paladin (for fighting Diablo) was letting him hit me...corpse running in perfect. (Thorns baby....Thorns aura on top of Thorns items....I hit him, his bar goes down a little. He hits me, his bar drops by almost 10%).
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Old 2011-08-26, 18:40   Link #834
synaesthetic
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I must be old fashioned, but personally I prefer a classic Game Over screen when you die. And then let me quickload, damn it.
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Old 2011-08-26, 20:53   Link #835
Rising Dragon
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Corpse runs got really old when it got to the point where you were getting killed by the enemies before you could even reach your corpse and retrieve your equipment.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:50   Link #836
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Corpse runs got really old when it got to the point where you were getting killed by the enemies before you could even reach your corpse and retrieve your equipment.
Yup. This is exactly my issue with it, the immersion impacts notwithstanding.
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Old 2011-08-26, 21:57   Link #837
DonQuigleone
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Dealing with character death is always hard. But I think taking out saving and reloading was the right move.

That said, reloading after death isn't perfect either. It's quite easy to go long periods without remembering to save, suddenly finding out you have to complete 3 or 4 dungeons all over again is quite disheartening...

And if you are a good saver, it makes the consequences of death a bit trivial, particularly in Diablo 2 where most fights don't last more then a minute.
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Old 2011-08-26, 22:38   Link #838
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Corpse runs got really old when it got to the point where you were getting killed by the enemies before you could even reach your corpse and retrieve your equipment.
Goes back to that rule no.1: Clear all mobs as you move. Never just run past them unless you are sure they won't return to bite you in the rear.
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Old 2011-08-26, 23:06   Link #839
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Goes back to that rule no.1: Clear all mobs as you move. Never just run past them unless you are sure they won't return to bite you in the rear.
I always clear mobs when I play. And it's usually a stronger mob that kills me. And keeps killing me. Over and over and over again. It got quite old.
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Old 2011-08-26, 23:08   Link #840
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Dealing with character death is always hard. But I think taking out saving and reloading was the right move.
Taking out saving and loading is never the right move. Never. Save points, checkpoints, save-as-you-quit... that's called Fake Difficulty, and it's bullshit. It's a lazy way of artificially lengthening the game. If devs want games to be longer, they can put more content in them, rather than bloating the completion time up with repeated replays of the same area over and over.

I play games to have fun. Not to stretch my e-peen. Not to be frustrated. Real life frustrates me plenty, thanks.
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